Should the Mustang Have Gone This Route

[jpvbs]

OK, last monthe Mustang was like 4700 sales to Camaro's 8,000.

Given the Camaro is relatively newer to the market and the wow factor is still there, I think the Mustang

is doing well - a perception that it's cheaper to produce and has more surprises in store for 2011 model.

By comparison, Camaro has all it jewelery on display and no more to give whilst the '11 Mustang will thrill.

 

We all seem to be counting on a Camaro sales collapse and the (white) horse rides into town with a new heart to save the day. Hopefully it is as easy as that. It seems that every month people keep waiting for all the pent up demand for the Camaro to go away, but concluding, "it'll be next month for sure."

 

I have no numbers to back it up, but I am sensing some market erosion for the Mustang.

Edited November 6, 2009 by jpvbs

[Deanh]

Mustang = better slalom, better skidpad, better 1/4, better 0-60, 100lbs heavier, 6" longer.

 

So the question boys:

 

 

Should the Mustang be 100lbs lighter and 6" shorter?

 

My answer: It's an irrelevant question.

possibly, but should they ignore all the constant quibbles regarding those two subjects?

[Deanh]

We all seem to be counting on a Camaro sales collapse and when the (white) horse rides into town with a new heart to save the day. Hopefully it is as easy as that. It seems that every month people keep waiting for all the pent up demand for the Camaro to go away, but concluding, "it'll be next month for sure."

dont know where Pent up comes from....lot down the road has a bunch.....

[RichardJensen]

possibly, but should they ignore all the constant quibbles regarding those two subjects?

who's ignoring them?

[Deanh]

who's ignoring them?

well, I would say ford...they must take note of the two issues that literally get raised EVERY thread....( mind you I think weight comes up about EVERY car lately ) mind you, weight wise the Stang already has a slight advantage over a majority of the competition...however, every iteration seems to grow......

[Edstock]

Check out the 69 Mustang being built at SEMA

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/06/sema-20...on-the-show-fl/

 

 

[RichardJensen]

well, I would say ford...

You know of another car company that has specifically and explicitly addressed vehicle weight going forward?

[jpd80]

I have no numbers to back it up, but I am sensing some market erosion for the Mustang.

Most of the Mustang sales lately are V6s, that should tell you something.....

Mustang fans are waiting for the new V8.

[Deanh]

You know of another car company that has specifically and explicitly addressed vehicle weight going forward?

nope....but funnily enough Ford has been .....2010 f-150 , and they have explicitly stated it is an issue that needs adressing........so, fingers crossed,,,,perhaps they DO notice how threads focus on certain points of issue...so heres hoping for the mustang...diets CAN be good....

Edited November 6, 2009 by Deanh

[BlackHorse]

You know of another car company that has specifically and explicitly addressed vehicle weight going forward?

 

We aren't talking about a whole car company, we are talking about one specific car. As for comparisons about skidpad, 1/4 mile times and what not, it is, how did you put it, irrellevant. The idea here is not about making Mustang specifically like the Genesis. Allow me to put it another way, perhaps bringing up the Genesis has just messed some of you all up and you can't get your minds around the real question here, which frankly doesn't surprise me. So here it is.

 

Should the Mustang be smaller, lighter, more nimble with an inline 4, V6 and V8 options? Not just like the Genesis, forget the Genesis. Don't bother with apples to apples comparisons to the Genesis. That's not the question. That was just a "for example" kind of thing. Let's concentrate on the steak and not the peas.

[Deanh]

We aren't talking about a whole car company, we are talking about one specific car. As for comparisons about skidpad, 1/4 mile times and what not, it is, how did you put it, irrellevant. The idea here is not about making Mustang specifically like the Genesis. Allow me to put it another way, perhaps bringing up the Genesis has just messed some of you all up and you can't get your minds around the real question here, which frankly doesn't surprise me. So here it is.

 

Should the Mustang be smaller, lighter, more nimble with an inline 4, V6 and V8 options? Not just like the Genesis, forget the Genesis. Don't bother with apples to apples comparisons to the Genesis. That's not the question. That was just a "for example" kind of thing. Let's concentrate on the steak and not the peas.

but Blackhorse...here-in lies the issue, and the reason for people leaping to the defence of the mustang....comparisons are where its "old tech" shines....and a majority of the time "trumps"......

[BlackHorse]

but Blackhorse...here-in lies the issue, and the reason for people leaping to the defence of the mustang....comparisons are where its "old tech" shines....and a majority of the time "trumps"......

 

No, no, that's not an issue, that's an answer and a valid one. Essentially your answer is "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

[Deanh]

No, no, that's not an issue, that's an answer and a valid one. Essentially your answer is "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

well, i do give them cudos for constant improvements, and the new drivetrains are overdue....it will be interesting for sure....ball COULD be back in Fords corner,,,,they HAVE done an amazing job with the rear suspension......"antiquated" and all.....

[RichardJensen]

Should the Mustang be smaller, lighter, more nimble with an inline 4, V6 and V8 options? Not just like the Genesis, forget the Genesis. Don't bother with apples to apples comparisons to the Genesis. That's not the question. That was just a "for example" kind of thing. Let's concentrate on the steak and not the peas.

:sigh:

 

1) The Mustang's getting a 4-cylinder

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/16/ford-pl...-model-by-2013/

 

2) Ford has plans in place to reduce vehicle weight.

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=30231

 

3) The Genesis is a horrible comparison if you're talking about something more nimble and smaller than the Mustang, because it isn't and barely is, respectively.

 

Your question's being addressed-------and the Genesis was a horrible example to illustrate it.

Edited November 7, 2009 by RichardJensen

[Deanh]

:sigh:

 

1) The Mustang's getting a 4-cylinder

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/02/16/ford-pl...-model-by-2013/

 

2) Ford has plans in place to reduce vehicle weight.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m301...78/ai_21155114/

 

3) The Genesis is a horrible comparison if you're talking about something more nimble and smaller than the Mustang, because it isn't and barely is, respectively.

 

Your question's being addressed-------and the Genesis was a horrible example to illustrate it.

reagarding #2, I'm intrigued in how they are going to acheive weight loss.....especially now such things as rear airbags are making headlines.....aluminum maybe?, but that has its issues as well....cost is one....

[RichardJensen]

Second link should be:

 

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=30231

 

Over the next decade, Ford Motor Company is planning vehicle weight reductions ranging from 250 to 750 pounds that will help it meet stringent fuel economy targets without compromising vehicle safety or durability. One of the ways Ford has reduced mass in its latest offerings is through the use of light-weight materials such as aluminum and magnesium, and the light-weighting of heavier materials such as ultra high strength boron steel.

Edited November 7, 2009 by RichardJensen

[Michael Reynolds]

We aren't talking about a whole car company, we are talking about one specific car. As for comparisons about skidpad, 1/4 mile times and what not, it is, how did you put it, irrellevant. The idea here is not about making Mustang specifically like the Genesis. Allow me to put it another way, perhaps bringing up the Genesis has just messed some of you all up and you can't get your minds around the real question here, which frankly doesn't surprise me. So here it is.

 

Should the Mustang be smaller, lighter, more nimble with an inline 4, V6 and V8 options? Not just like the Genesis, forget the Genesis. Don't bother with apples to apples comparisons to the Genesis. That's not the question. That was just a "for example" kind of thing. Let's concentrate on the steak and not the peas.

 

In a nutshell I think that question has been visited and re-visted multiple times here, and not just the Mustang either. I believe it goes without saying that a lighter Mustang is welcome. I believe the water was muddied when the Genesis was thrown in there (and I've explained why). If you simply posed the a question regarding what folks thought about a lighter 'Stang, you would have received more direct and to the point answers.

[jpd80]

reagarding #2, I'm intrigued in how they are going to acheive weight loss.....especially now such things as rear airbags are making headlines.....aluminum maybe?, but that has its issues as well....cost is one....

Think about how Ford utilizes internal space versus external dimensions.

The current Fusion could theoretically be replaced by a C1 Focus product with 2" x 2" stretch.

The internal dimension of the Aussie Falcon are the same as a Crown Victoria yet the car is Fusion sized.

A stretched MKS or MKT could easily replace the Town Car for livery work.

 

There is no reason to believe that good design coupled with the latest technology in light metals

will make weight reductions come within reach of mass produced vehicles.

[Deanh]

Think about how Ford utilizes internal space versus external dimensions.

The current Fusion could theoretically be replaced by a C1 Focus product with 2" x 2" stretch.

The internal dimension of the Aussie Falcon are the same as a Crown Victoria yet the car is Fusion sized.

A stretched MKS or MKT could easily replace the Town Car for livery work.

 

There is no reason to believe that good design coupled with the latest technology in light metals

will make weight reductions come within reach of mass produced vehicles.

all I can say is the future looks good, the mustang is in good hands...i just hope Fords dont price themselves out of the market.....the higher the cost, the fewer the potential buyers.....have a great weekend all....

[wish4newstang]

First of all: Genesis sales figures (I would guess this includes coupes and 4 doors!)

 

CARLINE OCT/2009 OCT/2008

GENESIS 1,850 1,121

 

source http://www.hyundainews.com/Corporate_News/...3_2009_3326.asp

 

So I guess if Ford wants to reduce it's sales by more than 1/2 yes, even after adding a 4 door go for it!

 

 

Next, the 2014 Mustang:

 

Smaller: Yes

 

Lighter: Yes

 

Turbo I4 option: Yes as long as it keeps completive weight to HP ratio with competition's entry level.

 

V6 Ecoboost in GT: Yes but V8 must be option in GT also. Maybe call the turbo 6 something else SVO or maybe LX?! The V8 of 2014 could also get much better mileage than what we have now!!!

 

Drop the V8 from the GT altogether? Never.! I have an '04 GT and you know what? Even though it is "only" 260 HP, 300 ft-lbs torque, it would not be a Mustang with out the V8 sound. It is what makes the car. I had a co worker over from Europe on day and we went to lunch and as soon as I turned the key his face light up and he says "V8, cool!" That is why people buy Mustangs and Camaros. I don't care how small the V8 has to get it still should be a V8!!!

 

Take the Mustang "upscale"? No. You can always have special editions for the few who have the cash. Doesn't the Cobra cover these people? Also what about Lincoln. If you want a super luxury / Euro sprots car Mustang for mucho $$$ make it a Lincoln!!!

 

Actually I think the dimensions of the '94-'04 Mustangs with 2014 styling and power trains is about what Ford needs to do.

 

Oh and the 4000 to 5000 sales per month of Mustang will get better when the new engines get here next spring and the newness of Camaro wears off.

 

I seriously doubt Genesis is taking any sales from Mustang. OK maybe one, they guy who started this Thread.

 

 

upscale? except for the base and gt, everything after that is upscale. i really think we are losing some mustang customers by up pricing them. I for one would like a new mustang as my second car. however at over 35k for a gt, that is a little high. i love mustangs, always will. i will own one some form or another, as long as i am able to drive. i just would like a new one.

[rkisler]

We aren't talking about a whole car company, we are talking about one specific car. As for comparisons about skidpad, 1/4 mile times and what not, it is, how did you put it, irrellevant. The idea here is not about making Mustang specifically like the Genesis. Allow me to put it another way, perhaps bringing up the Genesis has just messed some of you all up and you can't get your minds around the real question here, which frankly doesn't surprise me. So here it is.

 

Should the Mustang be smaller, lighter, more nimble with an inline 4, V6 and V8 options? Not just like the Genesis, forget the Genesis. Don't bother with apples to apples comparisons to the Genesis. That's not the question. That was just a "for example" kind of thing. Let's concentrate on the steak and not the peas.

 

Sorta like the BMW 3-series?

 

Oops. It weighs 3417, or about the same as the Genesis.

 

Or maybe the BMW 1-series?

 

It weighs 3,253 with the manual and 3,329 with the auto.

 

So, you sorta want a BMW 1-series made into a Mustang except with an engine bay that will fit a V8?

 

The only car I see coming up that might be interesting from a price and performance standpoint is the RWD Toyota FT-86 which might be sold as Celica. But this car is shorter than the 370Z.

 

I think the weight and "nimbleness" thing is more affected by perception and perhaps how the car is tuned. I will say, however, that I would have preferred the Mustang to have IRS, and it was close to happening but was cancelled at the last minute.

 

Mustang isn't standing still. The new powertrains will certainly help. As for weight, there are some areas that are certainly being explored, but all weight actions are measured on their leverage and contribution not just to the carline but the the total company's CAFE effort so it's hard to say what will be done on the Mustang.

 

I'm still not quite sure what you have in mind, but a new, smaller, lighter, "more nimble" Mustang would require an all-new platform; there's no way you can get from here to there without it. All you have to do is look at the relative weights of the 3-series and 1-series (a derivative of the 3-series) to see you don't get much weight savings (only 150 pounds) when you just try to cut around 10 inches without doing a complete ground-up job. And a new platform is simply not in the cards so this whole conversation is a moot point.

 

If Ford had done the right thing a number of years ago with the Jaguar X-type and developed a corporate small RWD platform, we might be having a different conversation.

[RichardJensen]

Meh. Coventry would've still piddled all over it, sabotaged it, and treated it like a redheaded stepchild.

 

Worst thing Ford ever did with Jaguar was let them act like they did Ford a favor when they 'let' Ford buy them.

[rkisler]

Meh. Coventry would've still piddled all over it, sabotaged it, and treated it like a redheaded stepchild.

 

Worst thing Ford ever did with Jaguar was let them act like they did Ford a favor when they 'let' Ford buy them.

 

Well, there was a lot of stroking involved in dealing with Jag, but I had some very close and open relationships. I really enjoyed working with them.

 

Jag was stuffed on X-type; it was jammed down their throats by Nasser right in the middle of the platform assessment process.

 

Jag would have had the lead on the small RWD platform. The issue would have been affordability when translated into a Ford product. Lincoln, maybe, but Ford brand would have been tough.

[RichardJensen]

Well, there was a lot of stroking involved in dealing with Jag, but I had some very close and open relationships. I really enjoyed working with them.

 

Jag was stuffed on X-type; it was jammed down their throats by Nasser right in the middle of the platform assessment process.

 

Jag would have had the lead on the small RWD platform. The issue would have been affordability when translated into a Ford product. Lincoln, maybe, but Ford brand would have been tough.

There had to be people at Jaguar that knew which way the wind blew, but the sense I got as time went on, was that Jaguar execs somehow thought they could be self-sufficient without extensive (and I mean -extensive-) technology sharing.

 

It's not so much the XType, as the way they seemed to disown the SType after it had been on the market for a few years.........

 

For what it is, and what it has to do, the Mustang is pretty darn good. Can be better (everything can always be made better), but it's a dang good product.

[rkisler]

There had to be people at Jaguar that knew which way the wind blew, but the sense I got as time went on, was that Jaguar execs somehow thought they could be self-sufficient without extensive (and I mean -extensive-) technology sharing.

 

It's not so much the XType, as the way they seemed to disown the SType after it had been on the market for a few years.........

 

For what it is, and what it has to do, the Mustang is pretty darn good. Can be better (everything can always be made better), but it's a dang good product.

 

Jag did have an ownership problem with the S Type even though they had on-site engineering reps in NA while the design progressed. But they were forced into certain components due to UAW considerations. They tried as quickly as possible to dump them and move to more familiar European suppliers. And they did do a lot of whining about the platform (some of it, by the way, with good reason) and went about modifying pieces and walking away from the LS. Well.....ancient history.

 

I fully support what you say about the Mustang. It offers a lot of performance and fun for the dollar. We always said that you should be able to identify a Mustang a block away from any angle which I think is still true. No sense in tearing it up, but of course there is always room for improvement.