WingBender Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 The 5-speed Fiesta takes a 3 mpg hit on the EPA highway cycle (37 vs. 40) compared to the 6-speed auto. I assume this is due to a lower top gear ratio. Is Ford planning on eventually offering a 6-speed stick to alleviate this gap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 20, 2010 Share Posted May 20, 2010 The 5-speed Fiesta takes a 3 mpg hit on the EPA highway cycle (37 vs. 40) compared to the 6-speed auto. I assume this is due to a lower top gear ratio. Is Ford planning on eventually offering a 6-speed stick to alleviate this gap? nope, my guess is perhaps inan RS version..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 The 5-speed Fiesta takes a 3 mpg hit on the EPA highway cycle (37 vs. 40) compared to the 6-speed auto. I assume this is due to a lower top gear ratio. Is Ford planning on eventually offering a 6-speed stick to alleviate this gap? I don't think the difference is the number of gears, but that a dual clutch automatic transmission is more efficient. Welcome to the end of the manual transmission. In a few years, except in trucks, they will be extinct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rsgnome Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 what are you talking about? they already are extinct in most trucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tzach Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I don't think the difference is the number of gears, but that a dual clutch automatic transmission is more efficient. Welcome to the end of the manual transmission. In a few years, except in trucks, they will be extinct. Everyone keeps saying that the autos becoming more efficient is the end of the manual. What they don't understand is th people who want to drive sticks do not do it because they are more efficient. That was a plus but not the reason. We drive sticks because of the connection to the driving experience, and no auto, dsg even with paddles will ever change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 The 5-speed Fiesta takes a 3 mpg hit on the EPA highway cycle (37 vs. 40) compared to the 6-speed auto. I assume this is due to a lower top gear ratio. Is Ford planning on eventually offering a 6-speed stick to alleviate this gap? Isn't the 6-speed auto actually a DSG box with a dry clutch... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizco Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 I don't think the difference is the number of gears, but that a dual clutch automatic transmission is more efficient. Welcome to the end of the manual transmission. In a few years, except in trucks, they will be extinct. The dual clutch is a computer controlled (dual) dry-clutch manual. Hypothetically, it's no more efficient than the manual. Ford made a final drive ratio trade-off knowing manual transmission buyers would care more about performance, where 'automatic' customers would buy more for fuel economy. Well played in my mind. Swizco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 What they don't understand is th people who want to drive sticks do not do it because they are more efficient. That is exactly why I have two manual transmission Foci. For the mileage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Its more than final drive ratio in top gear. DSG has better timed and more repeatable shifts than a stick with a conventional clutch and a human driver . Also quicker engagement. All of this helps on the EPA test cycles. Now, in real life, we shall see... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_in_va Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 BTW the 40 MPG is only if you get the "Super Fuel Economy" package. Regular automatic Fiestas get 29/38, a 1 mpg difference from the manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Everyone keeps saying that the autos becoming more efficient is the end of the manual. What they don't understand is th people who want to drive sticks do not do it because they are more efficient. That was a plus but not the reason. We drive sticks because of the connection to the driving experience, and no auto, dsg even with paddles will ever change that. Preach on, brutha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 That is exactly why I have two manual transmission Foci. For the mileage. me, i use gears to slow down, i love double clutching and choosing when to change gears, PLUS, and this is MAJOR to me, I LOATHE the hesitation of autos, punching the throttle and waiting, waiting , waiting drives me NUTS, and after driving an Auto 5.0 the other day, it is beyond me why anyone would NOT order the manual....something about instantaneous throttle response that has me sold.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHV 16V Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Everyone keeps saying that the autos becoming more efficient is the end of the manual. What they don't understand is th people who want to drive sticks do not do it because they are more efficient. That was a plus but not the reason. We drive sticks because of the connection to the driving experience, and no auto, dsg even with paddles will ever change that. Best post I've seen in a long time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Best post I've seen in a long time... Unfortunately the number of people who would buy one just for fun is dwindling. When it was cheaper and got better mileage then you could at least attract the cheapskates but even they are migrating towards autos now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StevenCaylor Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 IIRC, another reason autos get better fuel economy is that they are easier to tune for emissions. With the throttle on a manual its open/close/open/close/open/close/etc. With an auto, its consistently open. Look at the new Mustang. On the V6, both the 6-speed auto and 6-speed manual come with the same axle ratios. The auto is rated better than the manual. That's the way it is on most cars today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 Unfortunately the number of people who would buy one just for fun is dwindling. When it was cheaper and got better mileage then you could at least attract the cheapskates but even they are migrating towards autos now. not me, I LOVE old school, shame, even my beloved Ferraris are becoming Auto only....back on subject though, one of my only gripes on the Fiesta was no 6 speed manual...oh well...beggars cant be choosers.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) BTW the 40 MPG is only if you get the "Super Fuel Economy" package. Regular automatic Fiestas get 29/38, a 1 mpg difference from the manual. No, you missed the news 2 days ago with the official EPA numbers. Regular Fiesta with auto get 40 MPG. http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=32663 Ford has not submitted SFE package for EPA testing yet. They wanted to see if the regular version will hit 40 MPG (which it did). As to the need for 6 speed manual... I think it's not necessary. EPA testing requirements is kind of weird... manuals are not allowed to use top gear in the city cycle portion of the test (but autos are allowed). Basically, someone who knows how to drive the manual Fiesta will likely get the same if not better mileage as the auto. The final gear ratio is about the same. Edited May 21, 2010 by bzcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 No, you missed the news 2 days ago with the official EPA numbers. Regular Fiesta with auto get 40 MPG. http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=32663 Ford has not submitted SFE package for EPA testing yet. They wanted to see if the regular version will hit 40 MPG (which it did). As to the need for 6 speed manual... I think it's not necessary. EPA testing requirements is kind of weird... manuals are not allowed to use top gear in the city cycle portion of the test (but autos are allowed). Basically, someone who knows how to drive the manual Fiesta will likely get the same if not better mileage as the auto. The final gear ratio is about the same. once mine shows up i will of course let you all know mileage.....my gals Brother is flying in from ireland, and he wants a Vegas run....and that will be PERFECT to documant for potentual mileage...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 According to the Ford of Canada website, the DSG auto option costs $1,250 over the standard manual. That'll buy quite a bit of gasoline, even in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 21, 2010 Share Posted May 21, 2010 According to the Ford of Canada website, the DSG auto option costs $1,250 over the standard manual. That'll buy quite a bit of gasoline, even in Canada. I don't think buyers expect to recoup the cost through fuel savings but the DSG cars may well have higher residual values compared to their manual siblings... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted May 22, 2010 Share Posted May 22, 2010 (edited) Its more than final drive ratio in top gear. DSG has better timed and more repeatable shifts than a stick with a conventional clutch and a human driver . Also quicker engagement. You missed the biggest difference between a manual and a DCT (DSG is a Volkswagon term) ! Unless you can perfectly time your shifts (and most people can NOT), you have remove power (take your foot off the accelerator) before shifting gears on a manual transmission. Calibration engineers have a problem with the emission spikes that are caused by this action. A DCT simply does a "clutch to clutch" power transfer without having power removed ! Edited May 22, 2010 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted May 22, 2010 Share Posted May 22, 2010 me, i use gears to slow down, i love double clutching and choosing when to change gears, PLUS, and this is MAJOR to me, I LOATHE the hesitation of autos, punching the throttle and waiting, waiting , waiting drives me NUTS, ... Your wait should (theoretically) be shorter in a DCT. All it has to do is a clutch to clutch transfer as the next gear is pre-positioned. Not sure how they will handle 2 step (6th to 4th, 5th to 3rd) downshifts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atvman Posted May 22, 2010 Share Posted May 22, 2010 Automatics can be tuned to perform well on EPA test cycles. Compared to a conventional automatic, a properly driven manual is better in real world fuel economy. I think the DCT autoboxes might be the best of both worlds though, as they combine the mechanical efficiency of a manual trans with the smart electronics of an auto-box. DCTs also provide performance that matches a properly driven manual, in some cases they even exceed the performance of a manual. While a DCT isn't as rewarding to drive as a proper 3-pedal manual, but DCTs throroughly smoke manuals in any objective comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted May 22, 2010 Share Posted May 22, 2010 (edited) ... I think the DCT autoboxes might be the best of both worlds though, as they combine the mechanical efficiency of a manual trans with the smart electronics of an auto-box. The Ford DCT used in the Fiesta is even more efficient than than most other DCTs because it has no hydraulic pump. The gears and clutches are actuated by electric motors. Yes, this puts an additional load on the alternator, but it is less than pumping hydraulic oil around and around when nothing is happening. Also dry clutches are a bit more efficient than wet clutches because they don't have to "cut" through the oil. (Of course wet clutches tend to live longer and have more torque capacity.) Edited May 22, 2010 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted May 22, 2010 Share Posted May 22, 2010 The Ford DCT used in the Fiesta is even more efficient than than most other DCTs because it has no hydraulic pump. The gears and clutches are actuated by electric motors. Yes, this puts an additional load on the alternator, but it is less than pumping hydraulic oil around and around when nothing is happening. Also dry clutches are a bit more efficient than wet clutches because they don't have to "cut" through the oil. (Of course wet clutches tend to live longer and have more torque capacity.) I wonder if the dry clutch and electric servo motors makes the DSG box much cheaper to build (replace) than a conventional 6F35 auto gearbox.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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