Debate: Did Ford pull the plug on Mercury prematurely?

[FordBuyer]

What about Volvo don't they count as well towards Fords numbers 57,000 sales this year maybe, until they go at the end of year?

 

Ford generally gives two sets of sales figures every month....one Ford sales only and other with Volvo. Sales analysts are used to those two numbers and some press releases deal only with Ford and some with Ford and Volvo. When Mercury leaves, it will be a thud. A whole division gone. GM had trouble matching last year's numbers and has much lower increases than Ford because of Pontiac and Saturn sales death. Maybe we can call next year's Ford numbers new Ford vs. this year old Ford.

[jpd80]

Ford generally gives two sets of sales figures every month....one Ford sales only and other with Volvo. Sales analysts are used to those two numbers and some press releases deal only with Ford and some with Ford and Volvo. When Mercury leaves, it will be a thud. A whole division gone. GM had trouble matching last year's numbers and has much lower increases than Ford because of Pontiac and Saturn sales death. Maybe we can call next year's Ford numbers new Ford vs. this year old Ford.

 

GM's discarded brands were adding approximately 15% to GM's total sales figures, that was in the USA at least..

 

Ford is showing that it can make healthy profits WITHOUT the assistance of all those other brands.

I only hope they remake Lincoln into something truly special in terms of affordable Luxury and Quality.

Edited July 24, 2010 by jpd80

[akirby]

You can't have an intelligent discussion or debate of the aforementioned survey question without resorting to pejorative names?

 

We've been trying to have an intelligent discussion with you for weeks now. We keep giving you direct evidence and other facts that disagree with your opinions but you ignore them.

 

You don't understand smart business decisions and you don't understand the new vehicle market and what drives it. Disagreeing with every fact and bit of logical reasoning that disagrees with your opinion makes you one of the things I mentioned. You can decide which one fits you best. Or you can step back, take off the emotional blinders and see the truth.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

I only hope they remake Lincoln into something truly special in terms of affordable Luxury and Quality.

 

Well said JPD and bring a luxury quality RWD Lincoln in Europe the choice of quality connoisseurs Mercedes Benz, BMW, Aston Martin, Jaguar, Porsche, Ferrari etc, etc. Please no low rent FWD shitbox Lincolns.

 

Your Aussie Falcon/Lincoln could be a match made in heaven JPD.

 

Not unless Ford want you to all drive one of those technically brilliant Thai's assembled cars like you say they are and produce Thai low cost to build expensive to buy high profit low sales Fusions down under they make lots of them in Mexico so that makes it alright with you JPD like you said with the Thai whatever SA Ranger. Who knows what the future holds if you had said to somebody back in 2006 that GM would go bust shutter 20 plants dump Saab make Saturn, Pontiac etc history, Ford would ditch Mercury & Volvo they would have thought you are bonkers off your trolley nobody knows what the future holds do they JPD?

 

I watched a very dull boring bland British Leyland shutter one brand after another brand using the same excuses that you read here today on BON we will become more profitable if get some money for them or shutter that brand down will save money if we do it as Ford wiped them out one by one with some awesome styled Capri, Cortina & Escort quality RWD cars sadly Fords UK market share has gone from 32% down to a stable 16% and last month it dropped to an all time low of 12% mainly due to GM heavy suicidal discounts who just like the bankers who are awash with taxpayers money are paying themselves big bonuses whilst Ford who have remained prudent get kicked in the teeth, life sucks when you see failure being rewarded but a the end of the day Ford will win through winners always do a they have had to do it the hard way, cheats like GM never prosper.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[FordBuyer]

We've been trying to have an intelligent discussion with you for weeks now. We keep giving you direct evidence and other facts that disagree with your opinions but you ignore them.

 

You don't understand smart business decisions and you don't understand the new vehicle market and what drives it. Disagreeing with every fact and bit of logical reasoning that disagrees with your opinion makes you one of the things I mentioned. You can decide which one fits you best. Or you can step back, take off the emotional blinders and see the truth.

 

Maybe we should retitle this thread to "Agree with Mulally's plan to end Mercury prematurely or you are an ignorant fool." No room for the other side on here even though the thread invited opinions of both sides.

[akirby]

Maybe we should retitle this thread to "Agree with Mulally's plan to end Mercury prematurely or you are an ignorant fool." No room for the other side on here even though the thread invited opinions of both sides.

 

Only when you ignore the facts, which you and a few others continue to do.

 

The only 2 mfrs with 3 sequential market brands were Ford and GM and these were created over half a century ago. Toyota, Nissan, VW and Honda certainly had the opportunity to create 3 new brands but they only have 2. If it was a good business decision then somebody new would have tried it during the last 50 years. They haven't and there is no

 

In today's economy and vehicle market it no longer makes sense to keep 3 sequential brands, especially when they've decided to take Ford slightly upmarket.

 

But the Mercury fans simply don't want to believe the facts.

[jpd80]

Not unless Ford want you to all drive one of those technically brilliant Thai's assembled cars like you say they are and produce Thai low cost to build expensive to buy high profit low sales Fusions down under they make lots of them in Mexico so that makes it alright with you JPD like you said with the Thai whatever SA Ranger. Who knows what the future holds if you had said to somebody back in 2006 that GM would go bust shutter 20 plants dump Saab make Saturn, Pontiac etc history, Ford would ditch Mercury & Volvo they would have thought you are bonkers off your trolley nobody knows what the future holds do they JPD?

I'm not saying that I agree with Ford producing vehicles in Thailand

but I understand why Ford has to do it to remain competitive.

That same understanding applies to the Mexican built Fusion and Fiesta.

 

All of your Ford cars in Europe are more expensive FJM, they're much more expensive

than the rest of the world and that's why the pressure is on to build in low cost areas.

US/Aussie prices for example:

Fiesta is around 10,000 pounds drive away.

Focus is around 12,000 pounds drive away,

Mondeo is around 15,000 pounds drive away,

 

So you see FJM, it's your frame of reference, you guys pay a hell of a price to say things are built in Europe.

Imagine if you guys could get cars at those prices, would Peugeot and VW be able to compete?

It seems like Europe is one big sheltered workshop FJM...and you guys are footing the bill for it...

 

Oh, and by the way,

The Thai government heavily subsidizes Ranger and other vehicles that are built locally in Thailand,

that's why they are much cheaper there than when exported elsewhere to Europe and Australia.

Edited July 25, 2010 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

In the future, you might want to avoid phrases like

 

They never go over well.

 

@thread

My take on all this is still: I don't know what numbers Ford collected for the decision. I HOPE it was a sound financial one, BUT:

 

I still think they could've waited until Lincoln

• Has a proper small vehicle. Neither a Focus-based or Kuga/Escape-based vehicle can be ready before the end of 2011 without being a simple rebadge
  
• has a much more competitive MKZ (mid 2011, maybe)
  
• offers a new Navigator/Aviator/MK? off the new Explorer
  
• offers a better-looking MKS (2012-2013)
  

 

Right now, and by the end of 2010, Lincoln really only has good (retail) sales of the MKZ and MKX, both of which, currently, are just 'step-up' vehicles from the equivalent Ford (i.e. Mercury's traditional role). The MKS has an amazing amount of luxury, but, due to (IMO) its bland styling and ride, it's just not a competitive vehicle in its class.

 

I don't think Lincoln is ready to stand alone, and I really have to wonder how long it'll be 'till someone makes Mullaly a better offer.

 

If it was too soon, it was only by a matter of months. As was pointed out before, it would likely be quite a bit cheaper to get rid of Mercury now before its remaining models are forced into refreshes and redesigns that would only be on the market a short time just because of their Ford twins' product schedules.

 

And I think some of us are just plain forgetting how low monthly sales actually are for luxury brands. The MKS's sales of around 1000 or so a month put it in the top handful of full-size luxury vehicles. It doesn't sell in droves, but its profit margin is likely at least four times what the Sable's was.

[syrtran]

Only when you ignore the facts, which you and a few others continue to do.

The only facts we have are:

Mercury is being terminated,

Mercury contributes only a very small fraction to Ford's sales figures,

Less than 1/4 of Lincoln Mercury dealers do not also have a Ford franchise,

Mercury outsells Lincoln, which is actually a misrepresentation, because...

Mercury and Lincoln are the same financial entity.

 

Everything else is just speculation.

 

The only 2 mfrs with 3 sequential market brands were Ford and GM and these were created over half a century ago. Toyota, Nissan, VW and Honda certainly had the opportunity to create 3 new brands but they only have 2. If it was a good business decision then somebody new would have tried it during the last 50 years. They haven't and there is no

I give you Volkswagen of Europe. SEAT is the sporty, youthful co-brand to VW since 1982, and Audi sits above both.

 

I give you Toyota of Japan. Since 1999, they've owned Daihatsu and market it as a low-cost vehicle, and Lexus is the top-selling luxury marque in Japan.

 

In today's economy and vehicle market it no longer makes sense to keep 3 sequential brands, especially when they've decided to take Ford slightly upmarket.

Thanks for giving an example of speculation/personal opinion.

 

But the Mercury fans simply don't want to believe my opinions.

You know, you have been awfully quick to respond to anyone who doesn't share your seeming dislike of Mercury, specifically, or intermediate brands in general. You're as welcome to your opinion that this was the right move right now, as the Mercury fans are that this was a bad decision, and as I and a couple others are that Lincoln isn't ready for this just yet. None of us has the real facts of what the decision-making process inside Ford was, or what the current or future income projections are for either LM or just L. All we have is our opinions, none of which are wrong, and none of which are right.

 

You're just one voice in the crowd. Stop trying to shout over everyone else, it'll just give you a sore throat.

[saintlaz1]

I didn't call you a name. I was theorizing why you can't seem to comprehend the facts. No disrespect was intended.

 

Yes you did actually; if you cant have a debate about opinions you shouldnt be on here

[syrtran]

If it was too soon, it was only by a matter of months. As was pointed out before, it would likely be quite a bit cheaper to get rid of Mercury now before its remaining models are forced into refreshes and redesigns that would only be on the market a short time just because of their Ford twins' product schedules.

I just think that Ford could've phased out Mercury by making the new versions be Lincoln versions. Mariner first, as it's getting replaced by the Kuga follow-on, then Milan goes away when the new CD shows up, and then a rear-drive sports sedan when (if) the Falcon/TBird thingy arrives.

 

Tracer would've faced the problem you mention, though.

 

And I think some of us are just plain forgetting how low monthly sales actually are for luxury brands. The MKS's sales of around 1000 or so a month put it in the top handful of full-size luxury vehicles. It doesn't sell in droves, but its profit margin is likely at least four times what the Sable's was.

MKS is a bad example as there are really only a handful of full-size luxury sedans, anyway: S-class, 7-series, A8, LS, soon-to-be-replaced DTS, XJ, and MKS. Lucerne doesn't play in this class, RL is now just a reworked TL, VW's got nothing, and I'm not counting the Equus until it's out.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

I'm not saying that I agree with Ford producing vehicles in Thailand

but I understand why Ford has to do it to remain competitive.

That same understanding applies to the Mexican built Fusion and Fiesta.

 

All of your Ford cars in Europe are more expensive FJM, they're much more expensive

than the rest of the world and that's why the pressure is on to build in low cost areas.

US/Aussie prices for example:

Fiesta is around 10,000 pounds drive away.

Focus is around 12,000 pounds drive away,

Mondeo is around 15,000 pounds drive away,

 

So you see FJM, it's your frame of reference, you guys pay a hell of a price to say things are built in Europe.

Imagine if you guys could get cars at those prices, would Peugeot and VW be able to compete?

It seems like Europe is one big sheltered workshop FJM...and you guys are footing the bill for it...

 

Oh, and by the way,

The Thai government heavily subsidizes Ranger and other vehicles that are built locally in Thailand,

that's why they are much cheaper there than when exported elsewhere to Europe and Australia.

 

Why does the crap junk Holden Cruze thats assembled in Australia out sell all those three technically brilliant Thai Fords put together, Why do Aussies like buying junk Holden Cruze cars JPD what is the one thing you would say that made 3,000 Aussies go for a junk Cruze compared to 981 Thai technically brilliant cheap Thai Fiesta sales JPD?

 

What hold does Aussie assembled junk Cruze design have on you down under what make you prefer the $23,990 Holden Cruzes as nobody would be seen dead in the Korean ex Daewoo Junk Chevy Cruze junk in Europe sale here are almost zero.

 

When l look at the price of Thai what ever made Ranger compared to a Ford UK Thai what ever made Ranger we don't get any savings here whatso ever the mark up price is almost doubled.

 

Ford Thailand - Ranger Wildtrak Thai Bhat 699.000 = US $21,694

LINK

 

It arrives in the UK price rockets what causes the bargain low cost base to double in price JPD?

 

Ford UK - Ranger Wildtrak £26,261 = US $40,664

LINK

 

Where did the big mark up com from JPD?

 

It's a bloody rip off no wonder Ford only averaged 450 Ranger sales in Europe's market in May/June here why is it still on sale here JPD, Mercury sales looks a million times better in comparison in the US marketplace and they got shuttered.

[akirby]

I give you Volkswagen of Europe. SEAT is the sporty, youthful co-brand to VW since 1982, and Audi sits above both.

 

I give you Toyota of Japan. Since 1999, they've owned Daihatsu and market it as a low-cost vehicle, and Lexus is the top-selling luxury marque in Japan.

 

That's Europe and Japan. Why haven't either one done the same thing here? Because from a marketing perspective it just doesn't make sense. You need a volume brand in the lower end because that's where most of the market exists. But if you want a higher luxury brand then you don't want the stigma of "cheap" that comes with the volume brand, so you need a separate luxury brand like Lincoln, Caddy, Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, etc. So there is a logical argument for 2 separate brands. There is no logic that says you NEED a 3rd brand in between - all it does is take sales away from the top of the lower end brand and the bottom of the higher end brand. Take Buick - they could just as easily be high end Chevys or low end Caddys. But to avoid competing with Buick they now have to artificially keep Chevy lower and Caddy higher.

 

You know, you have been awfully quick to respond to anyone who doesn't share your seeming dislike of Mercury, specifically, or intermediate brands in general. You're as welcome to your opinion that this was the right move right now, as the Mercury fans are that this was a bad decision, and as I and a couple others are that Lincoln isn't ready for this just yet. None of us has the real facts of what the decision-making process inside Ford was, or what the current or future income projections are for either LM or just L. All we have is our opinions, none of which are wrong, and none of which are right.

 

You're just one voice in the crowd. Stop trying to shout over everyone else, it'll just give you a sore throat.

 

I do not dislike Mercury at all - I just don't think it's necessary to keep 3 brands for the reasons mentioned above. And I think getting rid of it will allow Ford and Lincoln to get even better a lot faster. They're not getting rid of the Mariner or Milan - they just won't be available with a Mercury grille.

 

What irks me is when people say that it was a stupid idea because Mercury outsells Lincoln or that it was done as a result of intentionally starving Mercury for products or that no Mercury buyers will ever buy a Ford or the fleet numbers are wrong, etc.

 

My point all along is the business case for Ford without Mercury was better than the one with Mercury and that's how the decision was made. And a lot of us here trust Mulally and Ford in that regard, based on the stellar results over the last 3 years.

 

It's ok to say that you're sad to see Mercury go for sentimental reasons but there is no rational business case that can be made for keeping Mercury. The money is better spent on Lincoln right now.

[akirby]

Dupe

Edited July 26, 2010 by akirby

[NickF1011]

MKS is a bad example as there are really only a handful of full-size luxury sedans, anyway: S-class, 7-series, A8, LS, soon-to-be-replaced DTS, XJ, and MKS. Lucerne doesn't play in this class, RL is now just a reworked TL, VW's got nothing, and I'm not counting the Equus until it's out.

 

Well what else do you count then really? I think everyone here will admit that the MKZ and MKX need some more unique features to make an impact. The rest of Lincoln's lineup is pretty niche stuff. Lincoln is doing what it's doing with a skeleton crew as a lineup. Certainly, Mercury was in no better shape in regard to model representation, I'll agree. I think we'll see the new product launches for Lincoln being pushed up significantly though, so I don't think the gap will be as painful as it could have been. And as was mentioned, dealerships are being compensated for approximately 3 years' worth of Mercury revenue.

[jpd80]

I can easily see Mercury's two most profitable models switching over to Lincoln and reaping more profit there.

Milan hybrid for one, instead of lightly reworked Fusion hybrid getting similar retail, the hybrid goes in the

MKZ body and gets sold for thousands more. The same should be true of Mariner and its Hybrid version.

 

It's sad that Mercury had to disappear but I really feel that Mercury as a full line of products is not economically

possible any more, people want more differentiation and distinction between brands, that's whay Ford is

better off rolling some of Mercury into Lincoln and ditching the rest, well changing back to Ford brands at least.

Edited July 31, 2010 by jpd80

[Chester]

It's sad that Mercury had to disappear but I really feel that Mercury as a full line of products is not economically

possible any more, people want more differentiation and distinction between brands, that's whay Ford is

better off rolling some of Mercury into Lincoln and ditching the rest, well changing back to Ford brands at least.

 

How about a Lincon MC Cougar? (MC for Mercury instead of MK Mark). Make a slightly stretched wheelbase Mustang so that it had a useable back seat. Also, make it only with the 5.0 engine, and give it a premium interior. Replace the fastback with a more traditional back like the old cougars had, and I believe you'd have an instant hit. The cheapest models would start in the low 40k range. I know I'd want one.

Edited August 14, 2010 by Chester

[saintlaz1]

How about a Lincon MC Cougar? (MC for Mercury instead of MK Mark). Make a slightly stretched wheelbase Mustang so that it had a useable back seat. Also, make it only with the 5.0 engine, and give it a premium interior. Replace the fastback with a more traditional back like the old cougars had, and I believe you'd have an instant hit. The cheapest models would start in the low 40k range. I know I'd want one.

 

Its a nice thought but i rather it have no Lincoln Marking to it and just be a Cougar sold in Lincoln showrooms; but i doubt this would happen. better snatch up old cougars if you want one.

[FordBuyer]

There is one thing we know for sure with the demise of Mercury.....we now have less choice. With Mercury around, you could always go to Mercury dealer if you were pissed off about your local Ford dealer. So I would imagine many former Ford customers would gravitate to Mercury on next go around. Lincoln is not a choice in that they are so much more expensive. Hines Park LM dealer by me was a very busy new vehicle dealership a few months ago, but now has been reduced to selling a few Lincolns/month and survives basically by having a very good used car department. Hines used to have a two big lots full of Mercurys/Lincolns. Since Mercury ended, Hines now has half of one lot full of new vehicles if that. Very grim. He still has a few Milans and Milan Hybrids to sell, and no Mariners left. I would imagine the Lincoln dealers left sell on average ONE MKS/month and not even one MKT/month. And Mercury owners who won't buy Ford's because of personal reasons will go somewhere else. A few may buy a used MKS or a new MKZ, but I would surmise they will be in the minority. It's going to be a long slog for dealers and meanwhile new vehicle customers have less choice. With Ford products going up in price significantly, Lincoln prices will go up more to keep separation wide. Witness the new prices on the 2011 MKX.

[NickF1011]

And Mercury owners who won't buy Ford's because of personal reasons will go somewhere else.

 

And Ford is undoubtedly going to miss those 19 customers.

[FordBuyer]

And Ford is undoubtedly going to miss those 19 customers.

 

We will agree to disagree. Time will tell. But so far and I do notice LM dealers are now really struggling with no Mercury. What a stark difference a few months make at these dealerships. I know this is Metro Detroit (not representative of rest of America), but this is Ford/Mercury/Lincoln country where it's not unusual to see 10 new Ford products in row pass by, and if these Lincoln dealers are struggling now with no Mercury, I can only imagine what it's like out there in import land where domestic vehicles are rare occurence. We have about 13 LM dealers in Metro Detroit I believe, and I would be surprised if more than 7 remain after two more years of this. Maybe less than 7 if economy doesn't pick up. I know Ford does want to get rid of dealerships, but this is hard to watch. Starving them with product and then watching them slowly die is not fun. Around here, we are used to seeing huge, modern LM dealerships, and now they are reduced to four products as I don't count the outlandish Navigator as credible product. And the Town Car is close to extinction. Who knows when the MKC will show up...maybe 2012 or later. And any RWD help is at least 2013 and beyond. I know one thing, the fancy, modern LM dealerhips by me with their electric golf carts taking customers out to their big lots will now be filled with used cars and trucks.

[NickF1011]

We have about 13 LM dealers in Metro Detroit I believe, and I would be surprised if more than 7 remain after two more years of this.

 

Don't you think 13 is a few too many? Yes, Ford does want to cut back the number of Lincoln dealers -- for pretty obvious reasons.

 

And enough with this "struggling without Mercury" thing. If a Lincoln dealer struggles after Mercury is gone, they were probably struggling while they had Mercury too. Are we forgetting again that Ford is monetarily compensating these dealers for lost Mercury sales based on their previous sales volumes? If they go out of business, it's probably because they weren't selling enough Mercurys prior to the shutdown and they probably would have folded in a year or two regardless.

[suv_guy_19]

Don't you think 13 is a few too many?

 

I would say. I think we have 3 (maybe 4) Ford Lincoln dealers (the rest are just Ford) for 1.25M people.

[FordBuyer]

Don't you think 13 is a few too many? Yes, Ford does want to cut back the number of Lincoln dealers -- for pretty obvious reasons.

 

And enough with this "struggling without Mercury" thing. If a Lincoln dealer struggles after Mercury is gone, they were probably struggling while they had Mercury too. Are we forgetting again that Ford is monetarily compensating these dealers for lost Mercury sales based on their previous sales volumes? If they go out of business, it's probably because they weren't selling enough Mercurys prior to the shutdown and they probably would have folded in a year or two regardless.

 

You guys keep forgetting that the D3 are located here with most of the suppliers including R&D. And even Wayne State University and Henry Ford Hospital workers get A plan discounts. Ford is still the number one employer in Wayne County and GM is in Macomb County. Lots of potential LM customers out there with good paying jobs. Henry Ford Hospital is into it upteenth expansion program along with WSU and they both employ thousands upon thousands of employees and many do buy D3 vehicles. Most big supplier employees get new car discounts also similar to Ford employees. Maybe that is why there are so many Ford and LM dealers in area. And most of the LM dealers in Metro Detroit are very modern and luxurious. The owners have invested a lot into them as they understood that Ford would supply them with modern, new product. I believe Crest LM is the third best selling LM dealer in country. Varsity LM is also huge or I should say was huge. Hopefully the biggest and strongest can hang in there for another 3-5 years.

[NickF1011]

You guys keep forgetting that the D3 are located here with most of the suppliers including R&D. And even Wayne State University and Henry Ford Hospital workers get A plan discounts. Ford is still the number one employer in Wayne County and GM is in Macomb County. Lots of potential LM customers out there with good paying jobs. Henry Ford Hospital is into it upteenth expansion program along with WSU and they both employ thousands upon thousands of employees and many do buy D3 vehicles. Most big supplier employees get new car discounts also similar to Ford employees. Maybe that is why there are so many Ford and LM dealers in area. And most of the LM dealers in Metro Detroit are very modern and luxurious. The owners have invested a lot into them as they understood that Ford would supply them with modern, new product. I believe Crest LM is the third best selling LM dealer in country. Varsity LM is also huge or I should say was huge. Hopefully the biggest and strongest can hang in there for another 3-5 years.

 

And if they are still struggling as much as you claim they are, obviously not nearly as many of those Ford employees are taking advantage of employee discounts as you are thinking.