Debate: Did Ford pull the plug on Mercury prematurely?

[akirby]

And if they are still struggling as much as you claim they are, obviously not nearly as many of those Ford employees are taking advantage of employee discounts as you are thinking.

 

Exactly. No Ford employee or partner employee who gets plan discounts is going to pay full price for a competitor's vehicle just because they can't get a Mercury grille on a Taurus or Fusion or Escape. Nor would fleet customers.

 

And I don't care how many vehicles are sold in metro detroit - 13 is WAY too many Lincoln dealers. 7 may be too many. Somebody seems to think that closing dealers means lost sales which is ridiculous. I can sell the same number of vehicles from 7 dealerships as I can from 13. Maybe more if the 7 are thriving and can afford to improve their facilities.

[T'Cal]

I don't know if it does, but if the market bears 13 dealerships, let there be 13.

 

Ford dropped the ball that was Mercury. Ford could've made it a sporty/near luxury brand with coupes, sedans, and SUVs that had more than just a bit more bright work. Mercury needed unique vehicles that shared nothing visual with the Ford products with which it shared a chassis.

[NickF1011]

I Ford dropped the ball that was Mercury. Ford could've made it a sporty/near luxury brand with coupes, sedans, and SUVs that had more than just a bit more bright work. Mercury needed unique vehicles that shared nothing visual with the Ford products with which it shared a chassis.

 

 

The problem is, that's where Lincoln is right now. Mercury was simply squeezed out.

[akirby]

I don't know if it does, but if the market bears 13 dealerships, let there be 13.

 

Ford dropped the ball that was Mercury. Ford could've made it a sporty/near luxury brand with coupes, sedans, and SUVs that had more than just a bit more bright work. Mercury needed unique vehicles that shared nothing visual with the Ford products with which it shared a chassis.

 

And they can do exactly what you suggest - but with Fords. Any unique model that makes sense as a Mercury would make sense as a Ford. Or an entry level Lincoln.

[NickF1011]

And they can do exactly what you suggest - but with Fords. Any unique model that makes sense as a Mercury would make sense as a Ford. Or an entry level Lincoln.

 

People are already complaining that the new Fords are too pricey and overlap Lincoln. Where the heck do people think Mercury would actually fit into this equation moving forward?

[akirby]

People are already complaining that the new Fords are too pricey and overlap Lincoln. Where the heck do people think Mercury would actually fit into this equation moving forward?

 

They're not thinking, Nick. They're reacting emotionally to the loss of something they liked. They don't care about the business case or reason or logic.

[saintlaz1]

People are already complaining that the new Fords are too pricey and overlap Lincoln. Where the heck do people think Mercury would actually fit into this equation moving forward?

 

Where Ford is trying to be. People expected to pay a little extra for a Mercury; not so much for ford

[TomServo92]

Where Ford is trying to be. People expected to pay a little extra for a Mercury; not so much for ford

 

One flaw in your theory: People ARE paying extra for Fords now.

[akirby]

One flaw in your theory: People ARE paying extra for Fords now.

 

And best I can remember they didn't pay a little more for Mercuries either. They were basically the same price. The only difference was standard equipment.

[NickF1011]

One flaw in your theory: People ARE paying extra for Fords now.

 

Exactly. Loaded Fusions well over 30 grand. Tauruses and Edges over 40 grand. Mustangs over 40 grand. It's a totally different Ford than it was a few years ago.

[jpd80]

Exactly. Loaded Fusions well over 30 grand. Tauruses and Edges over 40 grand. Mustangs over 40 grand. It's a totally different Ford than it was a few years ago.

 

All the more reason for Ford to push Lincoln products, appointments and prices even higher...

[NickF1011]

All the more reason for Ford to push Lincoln products, appointments and prices even higher...

 

Oh, I definitely agree there, just so long as the Lincolns have the content to justify it.

[FordBuyer]

All the more reason for Ford to push Lincoln products, appointments and prices even higher...

 

At some point in time, I believe manufacturers have to come to grips with the economy which is not getting better. Pushing for profits and high ATP's is fine, but being in denial of economic realities is not. If you get the prices of premium Fords way too high, then there is no niche for Lincoln any more much less Mercury. Making Lincolns for only the super rich is not a good way to go IMO. The top luxury vehicle prices are now approaching the price of a starter home in this depressed home market. Getting greedy never ends well. Just ask Wall Street and the banks in general.

[NickF1011]

The top luxury vehicle prices are now approaching the price of a starter home in this depressed home market.

 

Only in your myopic view of the world. (Super cars, aside, which have always cost as much as homes.)

[FordBuyer]

Only in your myopic view of the world. (Super cars, aside, which have always cost as much as homes.)

 

So when premium Fords start approaching $50,000, what price points will be established for Lincoln as they roll out new products? And does Lincoln have the panache to set price points expected from MB and BMW and other more desirable luxury brands. That has to be earned over decades of offering superior products. Lincoln has not offered best in class or even competitive products over the last 25 years. As of yet, I still don't see room for Lincoln if top Fords start pushing the $50,000 price point. Lincoln is in danger of being completely crowded out by superior Ford branded product with more technology than most of the competition, including some luxury brands. If a fully optioned out new Explorer stickers for high $40,s, then what room is left for a Lincoln version based off same platform. And is a Lincoln version really needed with heated and cooled seats. Lincoln needs to go its own way with unique platform, drivetrain, and design and engineering. Ford has been trying for decades to get Lincoln somwhere and so far still producting warmed over Fords. The MKT was a decent try, but it's DOA. And Ford needs a clean sheet of paper on the MKZ as in start over. Good luck.

[NickF1011]

So when premium Fords start approaching $50,000, what price points will be established for Lincoln as they roll out new products? And does Lincoln have the panache to set price points expected from MB and BMW and other more desirable luxury brands.

 

Did Ford have the panache to offer vehicles as expensive as they are now just a few years ago? No. The same dramatic turnaround is certainly possible at Lincoln once they actually put some effort into it.

 

You keep looking at Lincoln's current lineup and thinking that's the end result of some sort of major investment in the brand's turnaround. That's akin to looking at Ford's lineup in 2005 and thinking that they were done with it.

[RichardJensen]

Did Ford have the panache to offer vehicles as expensive as they are now just a few years ago? No. The same dramatic turnaround is certainly possible at Lincoln once they actually put some effort into it.

 

You keep looking at Lincoln's current lineup and thinking that's the end result of some sort of major investment in the brand's turnaround. That's akin to looking at Ford's lineup in 2005 and thinking that they were done with it.

 

I think Lincoln's lineup is more comparable to Ford in MY '08. I think Lincoln in three years will be sizzling.

[FordBuyer]

Did Ford have the panache to offer vehicles as expensive as they are now just a few years ago? No. The same dramatic turnaround is certainly possible at Lincoln once they actually put some effort into it.

 

You keep looking at Lincoln's current lineup and thinking that's the end result of some sort of major investment in the brand's turnaround. That's akin to looking at Ford's lineup in 2005 and thinking that they were done with it.

 

Ford has spent a lot on Lincoln. It was Mercury that died on the vine, not Lincoln. The MKT is brand new, the MKX is brand new and due out any day and hopefully will sell well, the MKZ has only been out a few years and received a MCE only last year, and the MKS isn't very old either. The MKS did OK until the new Taurus came out. The MKT hasn't done well from the start. The MKZ is seen by almost everyone as a gussied up Fusion even as Ford has tried to disguise it more. I'm sure the economy hasn't helped, but Lincoln has not even come close to matching Ford sales increases even with four new products. What Ford has said about improving Lincoln is far too general to be optimistic about. And again Lincoln doesn't have the panache to start in $65,000 range if some Ford branded products get to $50,000. Not with the four they have now. It looks more and more like Lincoln will have to go to RWD platform if it wants to sell vehicles in $65,000-$80,000 range and up. So far Ford is mum on this. A new engine, and all glass roofs will not do it IMO.

[NickF1011]

Ford has spent a lot on Lincoln. It was Mercury that died on the vine, not Lincoln. The MKT is brand new, the MKX is brand new and due out any day and hopefully will sell well, the MKZ has only been out a few years and received a MCE only last year, and the MKS isn't very old either. The MKS did OK until the new Taurus came out. The MKT hasn't done well from the start. The MKZ is seen by almost everyone as a gussied up Fusion even as Ford has tried to disguise it more. I'm sure the economy hasn't helped, but Lincoln has not even come close to matching Ford sales increases even with four new products. What Ford has said about improving Lincoln is far too general to be optimistic about. And again Lincoln doesn't have the panache to start in $65,000 range if some Ford branded products get to $50,000. Not with the four they have now. It looks more and more like Lincoln will have to go to RWD platform if it wants to sell vehicles in $65,000-$80,000 range and up. So far Ford is mum on this. A new engine, and all glass roofs will not do it IMO.

 

It sounds like you just want Lincoln to fail so you can say "See Ford? You shoulda kept Mercury instead." :rolleyes:

[Ford Jellymoulds]

It sounds like you just want Lincoln to fail so you can say "See Ford? You shoulda kept Mercury instead." :rolleyes:

 

Just wondered Nick is Lincoln a brand that Ford can sell on sometime in the future if they needed the cash, because they are more or less same as a Mercury as they are rebuilt Ford sharing the same Ford bits and bobs, so would they have to be shut down or could they be sold on if the world economy hit another double dip just interested in your opinion.

 

 

 

[NickF1011]

Just wondered Nick is Lincoln a brand that Ford can sell on sometime in the future if they needed the cash, because they are more or less same as a Mercury as they are rebuilt Ford sharing the same Ford bits and bobs, so would they have to be shut down or could they be sold on if the world economy hit another double dip just interested in your opinion.

 

The depths to which Ford and Lincoln are integrated would pretty much make it impossible to sell it. And why would Ford want or ever need to? Ford survived the first "dip" during possibly the worst time in its history. No reason to think it would falter all the sudden in another drop.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

The depths to which Ford and Lincoln are integrated would pretty much make it impossible to sell it. And why would Ford want or ever need to? Ford survived the first "dip" during possibly the worst time in its history. No reason to think it would falter all the sudden in another drop.

 

Thanks for that Nick very interesting, Ford is narrowing its entire range worldwide to become World products to keep the costs down. Its a shame Lincoln they don't have something like a RWD 3 Series maybe built off a Mustang or Falcon platform in the future and sold on as a Lincoln world car, l would buy one.

 

 

 

[NickF1011]

Its a shame Lincoln they don't have something like a RWD 3 Series maybe built off a Mustang or Falcon platform in the future and sold on as a Lincoln world car, l would buy one.

 

There are rumblings that such a wish may indeed come true. Think it will be awhile before Ford decides to push Lincoln across the pond though.

[ice-capades]

Others may disagree but I give Ford credit for pulling the plug on Mercury as they did. The final orders have already been scheduled with production of all Mercury models to end on or about October 1st. While some Mercury dealers may already be out of product, Ford's announcement to discontinue the Mercury brand couldn't have been a surprise as it's been an open conversation for several years at least, especially with no new Mercury product being shown at the auto shows, etc. Better to put Mercury to rest quickly so that Ford can put its' focus on expanding and developing the Lincoln brand further.

 

There's no question that there are some Lincoln-Mercury dealers that are going to be in a difficult situation until there's additional Lincoln product available. However, many of these dealers also have other brands at their Lincoln location. Part of this is also Ford's efforts to reduce the number of dealerships in general and to create Ford-Lincoln dealerships in markets that will serve a larger market area. Franchise laws in many states limit what Ford Motor Company can do regarding franchises in their states but believe me, Ford is doing everything they can to either get dealerships to give up their franchise points or negotiate with their competitors to buy one another out in order to consolidate the Ford-Lincoln brands in a market.

[akirby]

Ford has spent a lot on Lincoln. It was Mercury that died on the vine, not Lincoln. The MKT is brand new, the MKX is brand new and due out any day and hopefully will sell well, the MKZ has only been out a few years and received a MCE only last year, and the MKS isn't very old either. The MKS did OK until the new Taurus came out. The MKT hasn't done well from the start. The MKZ is seen by almost everyone as a gussied up Fusion even as Ford has tried to disguise it more. I'm sure the economy hasn't helped, but Lincoln has not even come close to matching Ford sales increases even with four new products. What Ford has said about improving Lincoln is far too general to be optimistic about. And again Lincoln doesn't have the panache to start in $65,000 range if some Ford branded products get to $50,000. Not with the four they have now. It looks more and more like Lincoln will have to go to RWD platform if it wants to sell vehicles in $65,000-$80,000 range and up. So far Ford is mum on this. A new engine, and all glass roofs will not do it IMO.

 

MKZ and MKX do not yet have 100% unique sheetmetal, just different interiors, front and rear clips. MKS and MKT do but they were also built on shared platforms with shared drivetrains - nothing totally unique. Nothing compared to what Ford has spent on the new Fiesta, Focus, Explorer and the refreshed Edge, F150 and Mustang plus new RWD drivetrains.

 

As for selling price - I don't thnk you quite comprehend today's vehicle prices. $40K won't get you much at a MB, Audi or BMW dealer these days. The industry average cost of a new vehicle is $29K. It's not 1995 any more and the rest of the country isn't Detroit.

 

$40K for a loaded, top of the line competitive vehicle is just that - competitive.