NickF1011 Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 since Mercury STILL OUTSOLD Lincoln One thing: Average transaction price. Lincoln's is higher. Much higher. Lincoln stays. Mercury goes. It's really that simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 More rebadges with more sheet metal variations like with MKT, but not anything extreme. You have no idea what the word "rebadge" means, do you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 More rebadges with more sheet metal variations like with MKT, but not anything extreme. The MKT is a "rebadge"? You're entitled to your benighted, ignorant, possibly moronic opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Cal Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Are you FUCKING KIDDING ME! The Monte Carlo, Cutlass, Regal and Grand Prix in the 1980's where the poster children for Badge engineering CALM DOWN!! My point is that they shared a lot underneath but some models had specific engines (i.e.: Grand Nat'l - T3.8L V6; SS - 305ci HO V8; Hurst - 307ci HO V8; not to mention some other V6 and V8 plants unique to their brand) and they all had unique interiors and exteriors. The trim on the Regal and Cutlass brought them upscale from the Grand Prix and the Monte Carlo/Malibu, for example. The same goes for the Riviera, Toronado, and Eldo and more currently the Aura, Malibu, and LaCrosse (and a Saab IIRC). Ford and Mercury models did next to nothing to differentiate its platform sharing models besides grilles and taillights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 You have no idea what the word "rebadge" means, do you? Well, I will say this....MKT was not best example of rebadged Ford and I didn't word it clear enough. I realize the MKT is an example going forward of a more changed top hat of same platform Ford brand uses. But to my eyes and many others, the MKS, MKZ, and MKX are essentially gussied up Taurus, Fusion, and Edge respectively that are IMO not worth the premium price over the commensurate Ford version. And that includes the 2011 MKX. And even the MKT although changed considerably from its sibling Flex is as ugly and weird as hell. That thing is a sales flop already. I'm still not sure Ford has the staff, the money, or the patience to make Lincoln special. I hope Ford can pull it off because the Lincoln name deserves better, but I will believe it when I see it. So far I see gussied up Fords with Lincoln price tags on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Well, I will say this....MKT was not best example of rebadged Ford and I didn't word it clear enough. I realize the MKT is an example going forward of a more changed top hat of same platform Ford brand uses. But to my eyes and many others, the MKS, MKZ, and MKX are essentially gussied up Taurus, Fusion, and Edge respectively that are IMO not worth the premium price over the commensurate Ford version. And that includes the 2011 MKX. And even the MKT although changed considerably from its sibling Flex is as ugly and weird as hell. That thing is a sales flop already. I'm still not sure Ford has the staff, the money, or the patience to make Lincoln special. I hope Ford can pull it off because the Lincoln name deserves better, but I will believe it when I see it. So far I see gussied up Fords with Lincoln price tags on them. A least with Mercury you got a little better Fusion, Escape, Crown Vic, Explorer, Freestar, Taurus for about the same money and a better dealer/service experience. With Lincoln, you get next to nothing for $20,000 extra dollars. No, I'm not going to spend an extra 20 grand for cooled seats and split wing grille plus better leather. With Mercury gone, most of the stand alone LM dealers in Metro Detroit will fold and there goes even the better dealer/service experience. I hope Ford can prove I'm a moronic asshole, but the onus is on them, not me. Mulally will indeed be a miracle worker if he can pull this off. Resurrecting Ford was a walk in the park compared to the challenge of Lincoln and its problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 And that includes the 2011 MKX. You can tell all that just from some pictures on the internet? Wow. It only shares doors and a roofline now with the Edge and that will be fixed with the next redesign - it was too expensive to change mid cycle. I don't know whether it's worth the price difference over the Edge either but they've sure gone about as far as they can to differentiate it. Let me guess - you don't think a Lincoln can be properly called a Lincoln unless it shares NOTHING with a Ford vehicle. No platform sharing at all. Am I right? Otherwise if it's ok to share a platform but make everything else different then that's already the plan for Lincoln - 100% unique interiors/exteriors, drivetrains, etc. A least with Mercury you got a little better Fusion, Escape, Crown Vic, Explorer, Freestar, Taurus with a different grille for about the same money Fixed it for you. There was never anything BETTER about a Mercury - just different (for the last decade or two). With Lincoln, you get next to nothing for $20,000 extra dollars. No, I'm not going to spend an extra 20 grand for cooled seats and split wing grille plus better leather. $20K? Exaggerate much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 You can tell all that just from some pictures on the internet? Wow. It only shares doors and a roofline now with the Edge and that will be fixed with the next redesign - it was too expensive to change mid cycle. I don't know whether it's worth the price difference over the Edge either but they've sure gone about as far as they can to differentiate it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So tell us....how is the 2011 MKX more differentiated from the 2011 Edge than was the 2010 MKX from the 2010 Edge? The 2010 MKX has different front and rear clips also plus different interior. You mean the split wing grille? The cooled seats and better leather? I believe you answered my query when you stated that you don't think the MKX is worth the price difference from the Edge. That is the crux of the problem. The MKZ is not worth its $45,000 sticker price. The vehicle is by far the worst of the lot. I laugh everytime I look at MKZ sticker price. Ditto with MKS...the new Taurus blew that vehicle into the weeds sticker price wise and it shows in MKS sales rate. The MKT is somewhat interesting even with big sticker, but its looks are way too polarizing and fuel mileage is border line gas guzzling in 2010. The 2011 Flex for that matter needed a upgraded fuel mileage rating, but Ford didn't do it. The new Explorer will blow that into the weeds also. Listen, I'm a Ford supporter and have been all my life. Mulally has done a good job turning around Ford and putting it into a good place. But that doesn't mean I'm happy with every move made and what they have done with Lincoln and the ending of Mercury. The Ford brand is not completely out of the woods yet, and Mulallly has huge challenge reshaping Lincoln. I understand Lincoln will largely use Ford platforms, but the power and drivetrains can be very different along with warranties and service plus of course features and that overall specialness that is mandatory in the luxury segment. I personally don't see that in Lincoln products offered now. Hopefully they will come, but I have my doubts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 You can tell all that just from some pictures on the internet? Wow. It only shares doors and a roofline now with the Edge and that will be fixed with the next redesign - it was too expensive to change mid cycle. I don't know whether it's worth the price difference over the Edge either but they've sure gone about as far as they can to differentiate it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So tell us....how is the 2011 MKX more differentiated from the 2011 Edge than was the 2010 MKX from the 2010 Edge? The 2010 MKX has different front and rear clips also plus different interior. You mean the split wing grille? The cooled seats and better leather? I believe you answered my query when you stated that you don't think the MKX is worth the price difference from the Edge. That is the crux of the problem. The MKZ is not worth its $45,000 sticker price. The vehicle is by far the worst of the lot. I laugh everytime I look at MKZ sticker price. Ditto with MKS...the new Taurus blew that vehicle into the weeds sticker price wise and it shows in MKS sales rate. The MKT is somewhat interesting even with big sticker, but its looks are way too polarizing and fuel mileage is border line gas guzzling in 2010. The 2011 Flex for that matter needed a upgraded fuel mileage rating, but Ford didn't do it. The new Explorer will blow that into the weeds also. Listen, I'm a Ford supporter and have been all my life. Mulally has done a good job turning around Ford and putting it into a good place. But that doesn't mean I'm happy with every move made and what they have done with Lincoln and the ending of Mercury. The Ford brand is not completely out of the woods yet, and Mulallly has huge challenge reshaping Lincoln. I understand Lincoln will largely use Ford platforms, but the power and drivetrains can be very different along with warranties and service plus of course features and that overall specialness that is mandatory in the luxury segment. I personally don't see that in Lincoln products offered now. Hopefully they will come, but I have my doubts. I said I don't know if it's worth the price difference - I haven't seen one yet to compare it in person. I do believe the interior is nicer than the Edge (whereas the previous one was just different - not better) and I'm sure there are more option differences than in the previous models. The MKX gets the 3.7L standard with 305 hp whereas all Edges except the Sport get the upgraded 3.5L with 285 hp. And the Sport doesn't come with HIDs or Adaptive Cruise. Here is my problem with your continued criticism - you act like TODAY is where Lincoln wants to be therefore they're doomed. What we're trying to tell you is that Ford has only just begun to fix Lincoln so the current MKZ and MKX aren't there yet (although they're certainly closer than they were before). As for the MKS - the Taurus is where Ford wants it but the MKS hasn't been given the chance to get there yet - that's why there is overlap now. It's intentional. Wait until the next generations of the MKZ, MKX and MKS before passing judgement on Lincoln. Is that too much to ask? Is it too hard for you to understand that Lincoln has only been given table scraps up until now? And don't give me the "I hope they survive" long enough to get there - they're surviving now with less than perfect products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Hopefully they will come, but I have my doubts. Why? What has Ford done over the last 3 years to make you doubt that they'll do what they said they're going to do? Global vehicles - check (Fiesta, Focus) Best in class power and fuel economy - check (almost everything new the last 2 years) Become profitable - check I just don't understand the pessimism. If anything I'm even more convinced that Ford can pull it off with Lincoln - given a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Why? What has Ford done over the last 3 years to make you doubt that they'll do what they said they're going to do? Global vehicles - check (Fiesta, Focus) Best in class power and fuel economy - check (almost everything new the last 2 years) Become profitable - check I just don't understand the pessimism. If anything I'm even more convinced that Ford can pull it off with Lincoln - given a few years. Why? Because a $35,000 compact car is the last thing Lincoln needs right now. Ford would have been better off giving that vehicle to Mercury and keeping them around for a little while longer until Lincoln gets something more than "table scraps." Your words, not mine. That move alone tells me Ford still doesn't get it. And yes, I'm still pissed off that Ford ended Mercury. Very bad move. I would have liked to been a fly on the wall when they decision was debated between those who wanted to keep it and those who didn't. It will be interesting to see how many Mercury customers Ford retains and how many end up buying Lincolns. I hope they retain most, but somehow I doubt it. My next new vehicle will be a Ford though, especially if Ford does a Focus or Fusion station wagon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 Why? Because a $35,000 compact car is the last thing Lincoln needs right now. The only way a Lincoln compact is getting anywhere close to that price range is with every bell and whistle imaginable. That's even more than the MKZ starts at. Come on. Ford would have been better off giving that vehicle to Mercury and keeping them around for a little while longer until Lincoln gets something more than "table scraps." Why add more vehicles to a lineup that you are planning to discontinue, even if you are planning to give it a reprieve for a couple of years? I hope they retain most, but somehow I doubt it. My next new vehicle will be a Ford though, especially if Ford does a Focus or Fusion station wagon. You being one of the most outspoken opponents, who is pissed that Mercury is gone, are still planning to buy a Ford as your next vehicle. Seems Ford will probably keep many of them in the Ford fold just fine. To those who leave, they will be missed to a point, but Ford is already adding plenty of conquest customers in the Ford brand with their other new vehicles to make up for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 21, 2010 Share Posted July 21, 2010 The only way a Lincoln compact is getting anywhere close to that price range is with every bell and whistle imaginable. That's even more than the MKZ starts at. Come on. Why add more vehicles to a lineup that you are planning to discontinue, even if you are planning to give it a reprieve for a couple of years? You being one of the most outspoken opponents, who is pissed that Mercury is gone, are still planning to buy a Ford as your next vehicle. Seems Ford will probably keep many of them in the Ford fold just fine. To those who leave, they will be missed to a point, but Ford is already adding plenty of conquest customers in the Ford brand with their other new vehicles to make up for it. I have driven either a Ford or a Mercury all my life. Now I'm driving a Ford Taurus. The new Focus has finally motivated me to want to sell my present Ford and buy a new Ford. I would prefer a station wagon, but would probably settle for a hatch if that's all that Ford makes alernative to sedan. I'm going to give it another year or so after the 2012 Focus hits market and see what Ford does later with Focus and new Mondeo based Fusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 Why? Because a $35,000 compact car is the last thing Lincoln needs right now. Ford didn't say it would be $35K and they didn't say it would be a car - did they? All they said was C segment vehicle. You're making bad assumptions. I have driven either a Ford or a Mercury all my life. Now I'm driving a Ford Taurus. The new Focus has finally motivated me to want to sell my present Ford and buy a new Ford. I would prefer a station wagon, but would probably settle for a hatch if that's all that Ford makes alernative to sedan. I'm going to give it another year or so after the 2012 Focus hits market and see what Ford does later with Focus and new Mondeo based Fusion. So none of those Mercury fans will continue to buy Fords or Lincolns. Except you. Got it. As for the debate as to whether to kill Mercury or not - that's not how these things work. I've been involved in several of these long term plans/business cases and what you do is run the numbers for each scenario - with Mercury, without Mercury and probably even a version with Mercury but without Lincoln. You figure out what would need to be done for each and how much it will cost and how much profit can be achieved. They don't just say "Let's kill Mercury - now what do we do?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLLMTR Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I am currently the owner of a Mercury Mountaineer Premier. I chose this vehicle because back in 2006 when I purchased it, the Explorer did not offer power folding running boards as an option. Aside from a glitch with the transmission that took two years and three trips to the dealer to resolve, I am pretty satisfied with it. Back in 2008 I remember reading that >60% of Mercury sales were conquest sales from Honda and Toyota. When the customers were surveyed, many stated that they would never buy a vehicle with a Ford logo on it. Lets not forget that it was not that long ago that Explorers were known for tire failures and roll overs and F150s were burning people's houses down after being parked in the garage because of a short circuit in the cruise control system. But as fate would have it, the Ford brand has become the flavor of the month. Reliability is up, recalls are down, and Ford never took any bailout money from the government.... Lets also admit that Ford has benefited from Toyota's huge PR hit which forced repeat buyers to finally give Honda and Ford serious consideration. I am disappointed that Ford Motor Company decided to kill off Mercury. I guess I underestimated how much it takes to mold a different set of headlamps, bumpers and interior color radio and switch bezels. What are we talking $50 instead of $25/per unit cost? I am kidding, I really don't have a clue as to how much it costs to stamp out Mercury emblems. Put simply, Ford killed Mercury because of marketing. It was not due to costs for R&D or manufacturing. Let's not kid ourselves. Ford trying to tout itself as a premium brand. Therefore, Mercury is a distraction. Ford One is the catch phrase. Frankly, Ford should kill off Lincoln too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 I am currently the owner of a Mercury Mountaineer Premier. I chose this vehicle because back in 2006 when I purchased it, the Explorer did not offer power folding running boards as an option. Aside from a glitch with the transmission that took two years and three trips to the dealer to resolve, I am pretty satisfied with it. Back in 2008 I remember reading that >60% of Mercury sales were conquest sales from Honda and Toyota. When the customers were surveyed, many stated that they would never buy a vehicle with a Ford logo on it. Lets not forget that it was not that long ago that Explorers were known for tire failures and roll overs and F150s were burning people's houses down after being parked in the garage because of a short circuit in the cruise control system. But as fate would have it, the Ford brand has become the flavor of the month. Reliability is up, recalls are down, and Ford never took any bailout money from the government.... Lets also admit that Ford has benefited from Toyota's huge PR hit which forced repeat buyers to finally give Honda and Ford serious consideration. I am disappointed that Ford Motor Company decided to kill off Mercury. I guess I underestimated how much it takes to mold a different set of headlamps, bumpers and interior color radio and switch bezels. What are we talking $50 instead of $25/per unit cost? I am kidding, I really don't have a clue as to how much it costs to stamp out Mercury emblems. Put simply, Ford killed Mercury because of marketing. It was not due to costs for R&D or manufacturing. Let's not kid ourselves. Ford trying to tout itself as a premium brand. Therefore, Mercury is a distraction. Ford One is the catch phrase. Frankly, Ford should kill off Lincoln too. You'd make a great GM manager with that logic. Why stop at 2 clones - why not make 4? It's cheap, right? Let's make 2 new brands and just slap different emblems on each Ford vehicle? You're wrong about recent Mercury sales - more than half were A-plan (employees) and fleet sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintlaz1 Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) You'd make a great GM manager with that logic. Why stop at 2 clones - why not make 4? It's cheap, right? Let's make 2 new brands and just slap different emblems on each Ford vehicle? You're wrong about recent Mercury sales - more than half were A-plan (employees) and fleet sales. I call bullshit on this; I have never seen a MIlan,Mariner or Mountaineer part of a fleet; Grand Marquis is the only one you can get sometimes at hertz and they carry maybe 1 or 2. This all happen because they didnt have the balls to invest properly in Mercury and give it a real direction; i am starting to care less and less about this subject simply because its the same back and forth wiht most of the members on here and I honestly dont have anything new to say on the subject. I will eventually have to replace my Milan; when Mercury was around I wanted to stay in the Ford Family but now not so much; Almost every car company now a days is making descent cares so its more of a matter of Style than realiability. Edited July 22, 2010 by saintlaz1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 (edited) I call bullshit on this; I have never seen a MIlan,Mariner or Mountaineer part of a fleet; Grand Marquis is the only one you can get sometimes at hertz and they carry maybe 1 or 2. Currently, Mercury only accounts for approximately 0.8 percent of the U.S. automotive market share, with the majority of Mercury sales going to fleet customers. Source The majority of current Mercury sales are to fleet buyers and customers purchasing through employee, retiree and friends and family discounts, which Ford anticipates largely can be satisfied by Ford brand vehicles. Source Edited July 22, 2010 by TomServo92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 It's easy to say they won't buy a Ford or Lincoln now because they're angry, but when it comes time to put the cash down and they start comparing the alternatives from other mfrs I believe the vast majority will end up buying a Ford or Lincoln product. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercurymichael Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 One thing: Average transaction price. Lincoln's is higher. Much higher. Lincoln stays. Mercury goes. It's really that simple. They have to sell them a lot better than they currently are or the average $ becomes irrelivant quickly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercurymichael Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 This all happen because they didnt have the balls to invest properly in Mercury and give it a real direction; i am starting to care less and less about this subject simply because its the same back and forth wiht most of the members on here and I honestly dont have anything new to say on the subject. I will eventually have to replace my Milan; when Mercury was around I wanted to stay in the Ford Family but now not so much; Almost every car company now a days is making descent cares so its more of a matter of Style than realiability. Finally, someone else gets it! I could not agree with you more. I stayed loyal to Mercury all of these years hoping that Ford would turn it around and make it what it was and could ultimately have been. Now I have been freed from this loyalty. All of the arguements that Mercury was just a different grill and taillights (sometimes not even that much!) are basically correct, however this was Ford's doing, not some drastic change in the marketplace as some would have you believe. No doubt the bean counters had most if not everything to do with this treatment and why Lincoln is in its current state. Even if Mercury sales were made up of fleet and employee sales--it still out performed Lincoln, especially when you pull the fleet queens (Town Car and Navigator) out of the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 This all happen because they didnt have the balls capital to invest properly in Mercury and give it a real direction Fixed it for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 This all happen because they didnt have the balls to invest properly in Mercury and give it a real direction; i am starting to care less and less about this subject simply because its the same back and forth wiht most of the members on here and I honestly dont have anything new to say on the subject. I will eventually have to replace my Milan; when Mercury was around I wanted to stay in the Ford Family but now not so much; Almost every car company now a days is making descent cares so its more of a matter of Style than realiability. Finally, someone else gets it! I could not agree with you more. I stayed loyal to Mercury all of these years hoping that Ford would turn it around and make it what it was and could ultimately have been. Now I have been freed from this loyalty. All of the arguements that Mercury was just a different grill and taillights (sometimes not even that much!) are basically correct, however this was Ford's doing, not some drastic change in the marketplace as some would have you believe. No doubt the bean counters had most if not everything to do with this treatment and why Lincoln is in its current state. Even if Mercury sales were made up of fleet and employee sales--it still out performed Lincoln, especially when you pull the fleet queens (Town Car and Navigator) out of the equation. Ford didn't do much with Mercury back in the 90's when Ford was the most profitable auto company in the world. So that is no excuse now. I almost bought a Sable back when I bought my Taurus, but decided on what I have now. I liked the SES Sport that Taurus offered at the time. You have to go pretty far back in time to find when Ford actually put some real effort and money into Mercury. Btw, many on here forgot to look at the survey that began this thread. Many voted that Ford pulled the plug on Mercury prematurely. So not everyone who voted on this thread was for the move of killing off Mercury. And yeah, it is bullshit that Mercury was a fleet queen. Most fleet managers look to Ford for their purchases, not Mercury. The Milan and Mariner were not fleet queens. And to say most buyers of Mercury were A plan buyers is not that accurate either. Many Ford vehicles sold in Metro Detroit are A,Z, and X plan vehicles also. So what? Why single out Mercury? I hope the demise of Mercury doesn't bite Ford in the ass, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. Time will tell what the true losses are. In Metro Detroit, Mercury resonated with young women and older people. Not sure why Ford wanted to throw young women and oldsters under the bus. Mercury had a certain elegance that both groups seemed to like. Most Mercury owners I have talked to are unhappy with the decision. Very unhappy and most are retired Ford employees and in their late 50's to early 60's. They still have a couple new vehicles left in them plus all their extended family. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 And yeah, it is bullshit that Mercury was a fleet queen. Most fleet managers look to Ford for their purchases, not Mercury. The Milan and Mariner were not fleet queens. And to say most buyers of Mercury were A plan buyers is not that accurate either. Many Ford vehicles sold in Metro Detroit are A,Z, and X plan vehicles also. So what? Why single out Mercury? d in their late 50's to early 60's. They still have a couple new vehicles left in them plus all their extended family. In 2009, 36.5% of all Mercury's went to fleets. That's a higher percentage than both Ford or Lincoln. It's actually one of the highest percentages in the industry. Source Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted July 22, 2010 Share Posted July 22, 2010 In 2009, 36.5% of all Mercury's went to fleets. That's a higher percentage than both Ford or Lincoln. It's actually one of the highest percentages in the industry. Source You and your "facts" and "reason" aren't welcome here. :shades: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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