Maislebandit Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Ford says white-collar bonus checks will be based on performance of individuals, departments That's why it can't be said what "salary folks" got. They were judged by individual merit. The other workers were not. If they had, you might find that some received more than others because they deserved more than others. But since they chose to be judged by their lowest common denominator (or put another way, the weakest link in the chain), the individual bonuses (to the blue-collar workers) reflected that. You make it sound like it was a flat rate check. The hourly p/share was variable also. It was based on # of hours worked. They could have easily done an average for salary. That is what they did for hourly after all. In fact, I would bet they did. Difference is, it wasn't in their interests to give it to the media sources. My point was that the company is very aware of the media and how to use it. It's a powerful tool. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 My point was that the company is very aware of the media and how to use it. As does the UAW. What's your point? Unfortunately the company is much smarter in its public comments than some of the UAW leaders. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 You make it sound like it was a flat rate check. The hourly p/share was variable also. It was based on # of hours worked. They could have easily done an average for salary. That is what they did for hourly after all. In fact, I would bet they did. Difference is, it wasn't in their interests to give it to the media sources. My point was that the company is very aware of the media and how to use it. It's a powerful tool. It was certainly portrayed as a "flat rate check", however even though there was variability based on hours worked, is it not true that the bonus-per-hour rate was fixed? It might have varied further by worker classification, but the fact remains that ALL electricians were judged the same, and ALL installers were judged the same, and ALL [insert worker classification here] were judged the same. Are you (Maislebandit) the same as ALL the others, really? I'm sure you'd agree that just as there are the best and worst CEOs in the world, you can also say that of the 40,000 (or so) autoworkers that Ford employs, there is a best (#1) and a worst (#40,000). At a fixed (hourly) bonus rate, the differences in those workers is ignored; even though the #1 worker's contribution was worth more (per hour) than #40,000. As far as what they did for salaried workers, I'll take them at their word (Merit bonuses, based on performance). I have no reason to do otherwise. Ford wants a happy workforce just as any company would, and intentionally undermining that relationship does nothing good. I think you are wanting to see a sinister motive when there likely is none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maislebandit Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Quote "The comparisons are absolutely comparable. If a company is in financial straits, everyone should take necessary cuts. From the top down. Likewise, in times of prosperity- concessions should be returned equally. Given the fact that there was an actual agreement in the modification for this "equity of sacrifice", it makes it even clearer that it was negotiated in bad faith. Quote That has got to be the most uninformed, misleaded, stupidest thing I've read in quite a while! Other than being your opinion, please explain. "If a company is in financial straits, everyone should take necessary cuts. From the top down." True, when things are going in the crapper, everybody wears it. "Likewise, in times of prosperity- concessions should be returned equally" Also true, however, at ford this is not a time of prosperity, they are coming out of a near fatal hit, anything looks GREAT compared to where they were. Agree, then why not pay off debt and save on take backs a little longer until there is prosperity? Also, to equate Mulally cashing in on his stock options with fords prosperity is ludicrous at best. If someone sold 50 mil worth of stock in a near broke company...that means the company is doing good and should compensate the workers comparibly?? WTF? I don't believe you understand my position on Mulally[. Please reread this thread "Given the fact that there was an actual agreement in the modification for this "equity of sacrifice", it makes it even clearer that it was negotiated in bad faith." Again, stop playing dumb. Agreements were negotiated in good faith and when ford does a bit better they will compensate a bit...oh wait, THEY DID TO THE TUNE OF $5000 PER PERSON!!! Again, your opinion. Look, profit sharing is one of the few things in the contract that were not given back. You obviously have your mind set, so I will not waste time listing everything else that was sacrificed. Which btw, adds up to a whole lot more than you think. My question would be, did Mulally get $5000 too? I don't know... the newspaper didn't say. However, if Mulally were a participant in the hourly profit share program, it would be MUCH more than 5K. In other words, any other person at ford could of sold their house or whatever and bought a shitload of stock at $1.10 then sold it at $18.00. ANYBODY! Stop bitching that some did and some didn't! I'm not Two issues; 1) Ford got concessions when times were bad and gave a bit back when it got a bit better. Please discuss what was given back, I would like to know. Thanks 2) A completely SEPERATE issue is that some people cashed in their stock at a higher value than they bought it. The ONLY one being brought in front of the light is the one who had the most, Mulally. What if, Bill Gates had a bunch of ford stock and decided to sell it tomorrow? agree F^&*ing IDIOTS! Have a nice day! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Please enlighten us as to what was "given up"......... And don't say Gen (jobs bank) because that should have never existed in the first place. Did existing employees lose wages or benefits or get hit with additional fees? Were existing employees laid off for any reason other than lower production volume/plant closings? What, exactly, did you give up that you want back? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maislebandit Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Please enlighten us as to what was "given up"......... And don't say Gen (jobs bank) because that should have never existed in the first place. Did existing employees lose wages or benefits or get hit with additional fees? Were existing employees laid off for any reason other than lower production volume/plant closings? What, exactly, did you give up that you want back? You want what was given up locally through coas & moas, or do you want the national contract givebacks? If I take time to list these items, you'll just say "that should have never existed in the first place", right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RPF Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Yes, they did. You probably know that because it was plastered all over the media intentionally. 5k does not come close to what the rank and file gave up. I don't think union workers are looking for sympathy at all, just a little fairness. Just what does the "average" American have to do with this anyway? Spoon fed by the media, the "average" American is so easily led around. You probably don't know what salary folks got for their share of profit share, do you? Because it was not brainwashed into your head. If you insist on being sheep, it is ok. This is America after all. Rest assured, there is at least one UAW member who won't be passing judgement about you! Nice ad-hominem attack Maislebandit. Are you Mr. King's spokesperson? FMC is not "entitled" to any sales. The sales that they do make are what generate the income that pays your check, and through the dues it seems you pay to the UAW, Mr. King's hyper-inflated salary and benefits given his performance. The "average" American you deride so heavily are the customers for the vehicles that the company builds and therefore the generate funds that allow you to have a paycheck and all of your benefits. Spoon fed by the media? These are the people who have had their earning power cut in this economy, whether it is from downsizing, outsourcing, reductions in benefits, being unemployed or under employed. They don't need to hear anything from the media, they are living it every day! They don't have much sympathy for Mr. King or others who sound like him at this point in time who insist that they are "entitled" to more more more while the customer base squeaks by on less and less. The "average American" see the profit-sharing checks as "the payback" for all the hard work and excellent performance over the last year. Excellent performance over the next year will allow for further checks while poor performance or loss of income from a labor action will cause the checks to be reduced in value or eliminated. The customers are going to have little sympathy for a UAW strike or other actions and they will take their business elsewhere. Maybe you should show some respect for those who really enable you to have a paycheck... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 You want what was given up locally through coas & moas, or do you want the national contract givebacks? If I take time to list these items, you'll just say "that should have never existed in the first place", right? Not necessarily. Just list your top 5 that you think should be given back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maislebandit Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Nice ad-hominem attack Maislebandit. Are you Mr. King's spokesperson? FMC is not "entitled" to any sales. The sales that they do make are what generate the income that pays your check, and through the dues it seems you pay to the UAW, Mr. King's hyper-inflated salary and benefits given his performance. The "average" American you deride so heavily are the customers for the vehicles that the company builds and therefore the generate funds that allow you to have a paycheck and all of your benefits. Spoon fed by the media? These are the people who have had their earning power cut in this economy, whether it is from downsizing, outsourcing, reductions in benefits, being unemployed or under employed. They don't need to hear anything from the media, they are living it every day! They don't have much sympathy for Mr. King or others who sound like him at this point in time who insist that they are "entitled" to more more more while the customer base squeaks by on less and less. The "average American" see the profit-sharing checks as "the payback" for all the hard work and excellent performance over the last year. Excellent performance over the next year will allow for further checks while poor performance or loss of income from a labor action will cause the checks to be reduced in value or eliminated. The customers are going to have little sympathy for a UAW strike or other actions and they will take their business elsewhere. Maybe you should show some respect for those who really enable you to have a paycheck... Oh my, how many tangents are you going on? Entitled to sales? The auto business operates like any other that makes any product. I'm aware how it works, but thanks. We make the best product we can in hopes john q public feels the same way too. If you guys want to discuss this further, quit putting words in my mouth....otherwise, it is futile on both ends. Cmon, where did striking come into the discussion? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maislebandit Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Not necessarily. Just list your top 5 that you think should be given back. So I am understood, the following reply is simply items we gave to help. I am not stating we should not have given them. I am not stating we should get them back now. They were taken equally and should be given back equally...that's all I'm saying. Cola Xmas bonus Overtime after 40 hours Mon after easter Shorter break times These are national ones. There are many local sacrifices made also. Beat this up too if you must. Thanks....and have a great day! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 So I am understood, the following reply is simply items we gave to help. I am not stating we should not have given them. I am not stating we should get them back now. They were taken equally and should be given back equally...that's all I'm saying. Cola Xmas bonus Overtime after 40 hours Mon after easter Shorter break times These are national ones. There are many local sacrifices made also. Beat this up too if you must. Thanks....and have a great day! Welcome to the real world! Many many folks gave up COLA the last couple years. I haven't gotten one in 2+ years! I would guess 90% of the population doesn't get a Chrismas bonus. Overtime after 40 hours...OK, you probably deserve that...you don't get OT any more? Who, other than school teachers, gets the Monday after Easter off with paid time. Heck, the state workers here in MO have given up a couple paid holidays due to budget crunches. Shorter break times...can't say much about that...line workers work hard and need breaks. Times, they are a changing. Many of us have had it good for many years, and we all have to make sacrifices to keep our jobs, our health insurance, our retirement, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupy Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 The UAW got thier thousands, good for them they work hard and Ford made some money. Mulally and other execs got thier millions, good for them they work hard and Ford made some money. As a share-holder, where's mine? http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/03/25/ceo-pay-how-long-can-the-pillaging-persist.aspx 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBodette68 Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Dear UAW: This is why you have non-union public opinion that ranks somewhere between Adolph Hitler and Marge Schott. I wonder how much Mr. King makes, and how many union members would find that figure to be "morally wrong" as well. I would like to know how much Mr. King makes also.. Also would like to know what kind of retirement and insurance plan he has. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupy Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Welcome to the real world! Many many folks gave up COLA the last couple years. I haven't gotten one in 2+ years! I would guess 90% of the population doesn't get a Chrismas bonus. Overtime after 40 hours...OK, you probably deserve that...you don't get OT any more? Who, other than school teachers, gets the Monday after Easter off with paid time. Heck, the state workers here in MO have given up a couple paid holidays due to budget crunches. Shorter break times...can't say much about that...line workers work hard and need breaks. Times, they are a changing. Many of us have had it good for many years, and we all have to make sacrifices to keep our jobs, our health insurance, our retirement, etc. So that's the new American way? I lost mine so I'm jealous of anyone who still has their's? Do you understand with that way of thinking there is no way to go but down? Look at the stock market lately? Corporations are making more and have more cash than ever on their balance sheets. Seems like employees of these firms firms should be rewarded for their efforts and share in the success instead of sacrificing while the top few reap all the benefits. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maislebandit Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 So that's the new American way? I lost mine so I'm jealous of anyone who still has their's? Do you understand with that way of thinking there is no way to go but down? Look at the stock market lately? Corporations are making more and have more cash than ever on their balance sheets. Seems like employees of these firms firms should be rewarded for their efforts and share in the success instead of sacrificing while the top few reap all the benefits. Great post!! Thank you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 So that's the new American way? I lost mine so I'm jealous of anyone who still has their's? Do you understand with that way of thinking there is no way to go but down? Look at the stock market lately? Corporations are making more and have more cash than ever on their balance sheets. Seems like employees of these firms firms should be rewarded for their efforts and share in the success instead of sacrificing while the top few reap all the benefits. Honestly, I hope some of it comes back when the economy is back to a more stable state. I will forego a COLA for a couple years to ensure the stability of my company and save my job, but making a profit for a year doesn't mean things are stable. This is a short-term solution though...and if you don't like it, you can always leave for greener pastures! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marginal Economist Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 So I am understood, the following reply is simply items we gave to help. I am not stating we should not have given them. I am not stating we should get them back now. They were taken equally and should be given back equally...that's all I'm saying. Cola Xmas bonus Overtime after 40 hours Mon after easter Shorter break times These are national ones. There are many local sacrifices made also. Beat this up too if you must. Thanks....and have a great day! Do you really not get OT after 40 hours? I thought the complaint was no overtime for 10 hour days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) Let's not forget that the UAW also offered up compensation money to Ford in return for more production in the USA. I wonder how many plants would have stayed in the USA without that move..and where would they have gone to? While the UAW members are probably underpaid now and receiving less entitlements that they should, we should also recognize that non union shops were the reason for a lot of this happening in the first place. I wonder how workers over in those plants (like Toyota) are fairing at the moment.. I'm not trying to be antagonistic towards union members just curious to know what the position is today... Edit, Since Ford has had such a major turnaround in financial fortunes, is it also possible that they grossly overstated their plight in order to justify even more radical decisions that actually warranted in order to transform their business rather than just recover it, is this why the unions now feel aggreived? Edited March 25, 2011 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maislebandit Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Do you really not get OT after 40 hours? I thought the complaint was no overtime for 10 hour days. You are correct. I did state it wrong. It should have read OT beyond 8 hours. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maislebandit Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Let's not forget that the UAW also offered up compensation money to Ford in return for more production in the USA. I wonder how many plants would have stayed in the USA without that move..and where would they have gone to? While the UAW members are probably underpaid now and receiving less entitlements that they should, we should also recognize that non union shops were the reason for a lot of this happening in the first place. I wonder how workers over in those plants (like Toyota) are fairing at the moment.. I'm not trying to be antagonistic towards union members just curious to know what the position is today... Edit, Since Ford has had such a major turnaround in financial fortunes, is it also possible that they grossly overstated their plight in order to justify even more radical decisions that actually warranted in order to transform their business rather than just recover it, is this why the unions now feel aggreived? Good post. The only thing I might see different is the transplants. I believe their compensation/benefits are structured just below what prevailing wage/benefits in the union companies are set at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maislebandit Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Honestly, I hope some of it comes back when the economy is back to a more stable state. I will forego a COLA for a couple years to ensure the stability of my company and save my job I can agree on this. According to the vote to give this concession, the majority of UAW members felt the same way. Who doesn't want the company they work for to suceed? Right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupy Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Let's not forget that the UAW also offered up compensation money to Ford in return for more production in the USA. I wonder how many plants would have stayed in the USA without that move..and where would they have gone to? While the UAW members are probably underpaid now and receiving less entitlements that they should, we should also recognize that non union shops were the reason for a lot of this happening in the first place. I wonder how workers over in those plants (like Toyota) are fairing at the moment.. I'm not trying to be antagonistic towards union members just curious to know what the position is today... http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/25/news/companies/autoworkers_job_security/index.htm?source=yahoo_quote The UAW position is jobs and keeping them on American soil. I'm sure the stereo-typical union haters on this site who love to harken back to the old days of 'jobs bank' will be dismayed to learn that uniformed arguement is no longer valid. On the other hand though, they do enjoy to beat that same old tired drum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soupy Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Honestly, I hope some of it comes back when the economy is back to a more stable state. I will forego a COLA for a couple years to ensure the stability of my company and save my job, but making a profit for a year doesn't mean things are stable. This is a short-term solution though...and if you don't like it, you can always leave for greener pastures! . I supported every concession vote the company, (Ford) asked for and my union advised in favor of. I felt the company was in trouble and it was in ALL OF OUR interests to have a financially strong Ford Motor CO. Greener pastures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 . I supported every concession vote the company, (Ford) asked for and my union advised in favor of. I felt the company was in trouble and it was in ALL OF OUR interests to have a financially strong Ford Motor CO. Greener pastures? If the pastures aren't greener elsewhere, then what is there to complain about? <the following is not directed at anyone in particular so don't take offense> I've never understood that about people. They bitch bitch bitch about their job. Well, you don't like it, then leave for something better. There isn't something better? Then don't frickin bitch! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 You are correct. I did state it wrong. It should have read OT beyond 8 hours. Sorry. So today you're doing 4 10 hour days - 40 hours per week - with no overtime? Oh the humanity! A lot of those "white collar" workers do 10 hours per day 5 days per week with no additional pay. Christmas bonuses went away decades ago in the real world. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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