Latest medium and heavy truck news

[Bob Rosadini]

7M3, you can ask Bob R.; when Sterling came about in 1999?, there were tons of them on the road around here in New England. And as far as getting bad reviews, I believe they eventually turned into Ford designed cabs on Freightliner chassis or essentially rebadged Freights. So maybe Freightliner sabotaged the Sterlings! I think Daimler's plan was simply to get Ford out of the biz because Ford was dominating Class 6 thru 8, and then kill Sterling after the 10 year non-compete, and that's exactly what happened! I still can't figure out why they fool around with Western Star!

Joe, I think you are correct that Sterling did well in New England. I don't think they ever abandoned Ford designed chassis-with the exception of the Acterra- I think that was a Sterling cab on an FL 70 chassis- story I heard was F'liner was trying to make the Sterling (Ford) dealer network pay for a separate franchise to sell the Acterra- that went so far as the dealers bringing suit-which supposedly they won. Also remember when they bought the business, F'liner's Jim Hebe was crowing that Ford was the "best in class vocational truck"-and I think the original Louisville was the best bang for the buck. As for HN-80? I think it was a work in progress.

 

In any case the Ford-Sterling saga was no different than the Mack-Brockway story Perhaps their intentions were good (doubtful) but in the end for Daimler's 300 million investment, they took 8-10% of the class 8 competition and about 22-25% of class 7 competition out of the picture. Not that they kept it all-for sure Navistar got their share of the "spoils" as well.

 

And on that note, it will be interesting to see how long the Swedes think that Mack should exist as a separate nameplate with all its associated duplicated costs. In time, Mack's loyal customer base will get "grayer", and when it does, the Volvo beancounters will be making speeches about the continued justification of a separate brand.

[7Mary3]

Joe, I think you are correct that Sterling did well in New England. I don't think they ever abandoned Ford designed chassis-with the exception of the Acterra- I think that was a Sterling cab on an FL 70 chassis- story I heard was F'liner was trying to make the Sterling (Ford) dealer network pay for a separate franchise to sell the Acterra- that went so far as the dealers bringing suit-which supposedly they won. Also remember when they bought the business, F'liner's Jim Hebe was crowing that Ford was the "best in class vocational truck"-and I think the original Louisville was the best bang for the buck. As for HN-80? I think it was a work in progress.

 

In any case the Ford-Sterling saga was no different than the Mack-Brockway story Perhaps their intentions were good (doubtful) but in the end for Daimler's 300 million investment, they took 8-10% of the class 8 competition and about 22-25% of class 7 competition out of the picture. Not that they kept it all-for sure Navistar got their share of the "spoils" as well.

 

And on that note, it will be interesting to see how long the Swedes think that Mack should exist as a separate nameplate with all its associated duplicated costs. In time, Mack's loyal customer base will get "grayer", and when it does, the Volvo beancounters will be making speeches about the continued justification of a separate brand.

 

I believe that is correct that except for the Acterra, the Sterlings remained basically Ford designs. And I recall the story of the Acterra franchises resulting in a lawsuit as well.

 

When it was introduced, I thought the HN-80's would be Ford's crowning achievement in big trucks. Here on the west coast, they seemed to have got off on a slow start sales-wise, possibly because they came out during the big Freightliner push (gauranteed buy-back program). Anyway, less than a year after introduction Ford announced the sale to Freightliner, and that probably didn't do sales any good either. My fleet stayed away from them (even after years of buying L series trucks) so I didn't get any first-hand experience with them. However, I heard a lot of negative comments about Sterlings in the years that followed, mainly about the cabs, interiors, and electrical components. One fleet guy I heard from said it was not uncommon for the whole dash to come loose! It seems most of the fleets that favored Fords went to Freightliner or International after the L series was phased out, and never looked back.

 

Volvo and Mack. There's a topic. I see Volvo keeeping Mack primarily as a vocational line, but still doing some over-the-road business (different from Freightliner, who quickly ended any and all over-the-road models from the Ford/Sterling line). I personally rather like Volvo engines, so I don't really mind the thought of a Mack with a Volvo-based engine in it, as long as the rest of the truck (frame and axles in particular) are Mack.

[Bob Rosadini]

 

 

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Volvo and Mack. There's a topic. I see Volvo keeeping Mack primarily as a vocational line, but still doing some over-the-road business (different from Freightliner, who quickly ended any and all over-the-road models from the Ford/Sterling line). I personally rather like Volvo engines, so I don't really mind the thought of a Mack with a Volvo-based engine in it, as long as the rest of the truck (frame and axles in particular) are Mack.

 

10-4 on the Volvo engines. But again when the market takes its next downturn, the bean counters will start tuning rocks over and the duplicated marketing and admin. costs will stick out like a sore thumb. I would look for tell tale signs- the minute the Mack transmissions and axles are history, I would bet the brand is history- hope I'm wrong. Love my B-61X!

[7Mary3]

The B-61 was one of Mack's best, no question. One fleet I used to work for had an R-685. That was a nice driving truck, 237 horse Maxidyne and a 5 speed. I remember a lot of guys saying a Ford L was a poor man's Mack R!

Edited May 17, 2011 by 7Mary3

[theoldwizard]

Does anyone have any "typical" sale volume numbers for Class 4 through 8 ? Sales over the past 2-3 years are probably not "typical".

[Bob Rosadini]

The WSJ reported today that VW today had outlined its terms for its takeover bid of MAN. Their objective to challenge the world leadership positions of Daimler and Volvo. Also to get greater cooperation between MAN and Scania which VW controls.

 

Ah yes- heavy trucks- just what the developing third world needs. But who cares- I can't wait to read about the Flex and Lincoln sales numbers for May.

[7Mary3]

Now how does VW figure they can challenge Volvo and Daimler with no market presence in North America?

 

Keep your eyes on Navistar!

[Bob Rosadini]

Now how does VW figure they can challenge Volvo and Daimler with no market presence in North America?

 

Keep your eyes on Navistar!

understood on VW's NA presence-so you are saying a Navistar/VW merger/JV/Alliance is in the works? If so -too bad- I always thought a FORD/NAVISTAR alliance would happen-of course that was before the 6.0! And back to my point, I do believe all three of these entities see the huge market for trucks in the third world.

[lfeg]

It seems there is alot of news this week in the vocational truck market.

 

1 Hino is introducing a diesel electric hybrid class 5 truck, the 196h as a 2012 model. Looks to be a low cab forward model.

 

2 Mack is introducing a lighter spec Granite, looking to expand their range by going lighter. Power is the Cummins ISL. Most interesting thing is that they are offering what they call a "flat top sleeper" on this model.

 

3 Freightliner is introducing a new severe duty line. Very heavy specs, just the opposite of Mack. Although the top models use the Mercedes/DD DD13 engine, other models have Cummins ISC and ISB engines. The ISB tells me that this model line is pretty deep in that it includes lighter spec trucks, as do rear axle offerings from a single 21,000 lb to a 69,000 lb triple.

 

4 International is introducing the new Paystar models with their Maxforce 15 engine. The one photo in the release shows a Paystar with twin front axles.

 

5. And Dodge continues to amaze and confuse with a release about a new half ton package, the 1500 Express regular cab short bed (hmmm, same designation as a GM half ton van) that is low cost, but easily customizable with dealer available goodies. At the end of the release they state that the Ram truck line is adding chassis cab models of the 3500, 4500, and 5500 trucks. Huh?

Edited July 14, 2011 by lfeg

[twintornados]

Ford should put a "cut-a-way" cab from an Econoline on a 650/750 chassis and make an "in-house" low cab forward model.

[Joe771476]

Ford came out briefly with an E550, but it was destined to become a success, so Ford canned it. Or maybe the competition paid Ford to kill it. In another thread, Mulally is trying to influence German car buyers that Ford is just as good as VW! What Mulally needs to do is get Ford back into class 8 here in the states and in Europe and put VW's goal of being number one in trucks before Daimler and Volvo in the trash can!! Since Europe loves cabovers, they could export the Brazilian and Turkish Fords to Europe. Then I'd like VW to stick that in their pipe and smoke it! But Ford won't: NO GUTS!

[Joe771476]

Another month of banner Class 8 sales and Ford's out of it! Analysts are concerned that International is struggling for/losing marketshare. They're not sure if customers are wary of International being the lone mfr. using EGR tech. Personally I would hate to have to go through the pain of keeping the diesel fluid reservoir full with SCR.

[silvrsvt]

Since Europe loves cabovers, they could export the Brazilian and Turkish Fords to Europe.

 

Last time I checked, Turkey is in Europe

[Bob Rosadini]

Last time I checked, Turkey is in Europe

Tell that to the rest of Europe- I think you got his point. Is the truck sold in Germany, Italy, France etc. etc.??? No No NO.

[jpvbs]

Last time I checked, Turkey is in Europe

 

it's in both Europe and Asia. the Ford plant is in the Asian part of the country.

[Edstock]

Tell that to the rest of Europe- I think you got his point. Is the truck sold in Germany, Italy, France etc. etc.??? No No NO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cargo

 

 

Apparently, Otosan in Turkey does export world-wide, to 65 countries, including the EU.

 

From the Wiki, apparently Ford got out of a successful Class 8 market there, too.

 

 

[Bob Rosadini]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cargo

 

 

Apparently, Otosan in Turkey does export world-wide, to 65 countries, including the EU.

 

From the Wiki, apparently Ford got out of a successful Class 8 market there, too.

EdS-Thx-great info-reason I was of the belief they were not in Europe is if you go to the respective country website, (i.e, Germany,Italy etc) there is nothing listed but small trucks.

 

The relevance I see in this is that it is a positive that some big truck talent still exists within Ford- and if you believe in the "One Ford" theory, perhaps some of that expertise might be employed to get past Bluediamond.

[7Mary3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Cargo

 

 

Apparently, Otosan in Turkey does export world-wide, to 65 countries, including the EU.

 

From the Wiki, apparently Ford got out of a successful Class 8 market there, too.

 

 

Don't know how successful it was, Ford bailed in Europe and sold out to Iveco long before they sold out to Freightliner here.

[lfeg]

I just don't know about the value of getting into the class 8 market. It seems that the traditional class 8 players are doing an awful lot to expand downmarket into Classes 6 and 7. Class 8 seems to have some wild swings, more than classes 6 and 7.

[7Mary3]

I just don't know about the value of getting into the class 8 market. It seems that the traditional class 8 players are doing an awful lot to expand downmarket into Classes 6 and 7. Class 8 seems to have some wild swings, more than classes 6 and 7.

 

I agree. Another factor is that these days, a typical class 6 truck has a lot more in common with a class 7 or even a class 8 truck. It is fairly easy for a class 8 builder to go into the lighter classes using existing components from heavier trucks. Take cabs for instance. In years past the majority of class 6 and 7 trucks used light duty truck cabs, now most use cabs specifically designed for class 6 though 8 trucks. It is easy to build class 6 trucks on the same assembly lines as class 8 as well.

[Bob Rosadini]

I just don't know about the value of getting into the class 8 market. It seems that the traditional class 8 players are doing an awful lot to expand downmarket into Classes 6 and 7. Class 8 seems to have some wild swings, more than classes 6 and 7.

The key is to define just what segment in class 8 you go after. In my book, Ford's biggest error in the old days was trying to cover all the class 8 bases. Bottom line, you would never get a "large car" guy to give up his Pete or KW for a Ford. Had Ford put all its effort into the true vocational market, things might have been different.

 

This brings us to today. As I and others have noted, the class 8 market should be changing in the coming years as intermodal takes more and more long hauls off the road. What will then be needed will be a basic class 8 tractor to get the container or "pig" from the rail yard to the distribution center. That doesn't take a 500 HP Pete- rather a 40,000 lb rear, 12,000 front or even a 23,000 rear and a tag axle and say a properly geared 10-13 liter engine.

 

Bottom line, (This is a Ford forum) if Ford gets serious in class 6 and 7, they can be back in the class 8 business in a specific way. On paper they are there with a 37,000 lb. GVW F-750 (never seen one) but that 11 year old truck won't cut it- and neither will 6.7 Cummins-other than to give Dodge good marketing foder for their pick ups.

 

Check out "Ford Cargo" on you tube. Ford IS in the truck business in other parts of the world.

[7Mary3]

Speaking of intermodal, some of the very last Sterlings built were LNG fueled 3 axle daycab tractors built for the Port of Los Angeles to haul containers. The Port of L.A. is on a crusade to eliminate diesel vehicles from the port area, and many of these Sterlings were purchased. I bring this up because these tractors are the exact class 8's you are talking about.

 

In other news:

 

http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2011/07/15/rising-demand-for-trucks-puts-spotlight-on-idle-navistar-plant/

 

Personally, I don't think Navistar is going to reopen Chatham anytime soon. If Navistar needs more capacity, my bet is it will come from Escobedo. And, there has been speculation that 'Blue Diamond' will end if Navistar needs plant capacity at Escobedo. Then again, Navistar's brisk military business will probably slow down soon, and that could mean excess capacity at Garland.

 

There has been no news about the future of Blue Diamond, either about the plant or the product.

[Bob Rosadini]

Speaking of intermodal, some of the very last Sterlings built were LNG fueled 3 axle daycab tractors built for the Port of Los Angeles to haul containers. The Port of L.A. is on a crusade to eliminate diesel vehicles from the port area, and many of these Sterlings were purchased. I bring this up because these tractors are the exact class 8's you are talking about.

 

In other news:

 

http://www.foxbusiness.com/industries/2011/07/15/rising-demand-for-trucks-puts-spotlight-on-idle-navistar-plant/

 

Personally, I don't think Navistar is going to reopen Chatham anytime soon. If Navistar needs more capacity, my bet is it will come from Escobedo. And, there has been speculation that 'Blue Diamond' will end if Navistar needs plant capacity at Escobedo. Then again, Navistar's brisk military business will probably slow down soon, and that could mean excess capacity at Garland.

 

There has been no news about the future of Blue Diamond, either about the plant or the product.

Good article- interesting that no mention was made about Navistar's bet on EGR. That issue COULD effect their volume-one way or another- I hope they make it.

[lfeg]

The key is to define just what segment in class 8 you go after. In my book, Ford's biggest error in the old days was trying to cover all the class 8 bases. Bottom line, you would never get a "large car" guy to give up his Pete or KW for a Ford. Had Ford put all its effort into the true vocational market, things might have been different.

 

This brings us to today. As I and others have noted, the class 8 market should be changing in the coming years as intermodal takes more and more long hauls off the road. What will then be needed will be a basic class 8 tractor to get the container or "pig" from the rail yard to the distribution center. That doesn't take a 500 HP Pete- rather a 40,000 lb rear, 12,000 front or even a 23,000 rear and a tag axle and say a properly geared 10-13 liter engine.

 

Bottom line, (This is a Ford forum) if Ford gets serious in class 6 and 7, they can be back in the class 8 business in a specific way. On paper they are there with a 37,000 lb. GVW F-750 (never seen one) but that 11 year old truck won't cut it- and neither will 6.7 Cummins-other than to give Dodge good marketing foder for their pick ups.

 

Check out "Ford Cargo" on you tube. Ford IS in the truck business in other parts of the world.

 

For Ford to really go after class 6 and 7 (and possibly light class 8) they will have to make several changes/committments

 

1. For driver comfort (which includes an air suspension or similar seat) they will need a cab with more headroom. This does not rule out using the basic structure of the current SuperDuty cab, but they can raise the roof like they did on the cabs they used on the N Series back in the 60s. Also, usig the structure of the Super Cab (without the rear doors) as the basis for the 650, 750 (and 850?) regular cabs would be a good idea.

 

2. They need to bring something special, something unique, to the show. One idea is work with an engine builder to get a Ford exclusive (at least for a while) package that gives good power with better than average effiency and low cost of ownership.

 

3. Take advantage of their dealer network and parts and service network so that buying and maintaining a Ford is as easy or easer than any other brand.

 

These are just a start, but necessary to be a force in hte class 6 and 7 market. Otherwise they just play on the sidelines

[theoldwizard]

2. They need to bring something special, something unique, to the show. One idea is work with an engine builder to get a Ford exclusive (at least for a while) package that gives good power with better than average effiency and low cost of ownership.

6.8L V10 CNG

 

Might not be enough power for everyone, but the fuel costs will save a lot !