Ford: 1st Quarter Results

[Deanh]

Then your negotiators are idiots.

 

Ford won't discuss Mulally's pay package with the UAW. If your negotiators bring it up they will be told, "Executive compensation is determined by the board of directors." That will be the only answer that the UAW will get, and it is the only answer they deserve.

 

And I defy you and the rest of the UAW to go on strike because you won't get to vote on Mulally's pay package.

no doubt they will come to a compromise...

[akirby]

Contracts have been 4 years for the last three contracts, not counting the giveback contract of 2009.

 

And you guys can think of me whatever you want, no matter how much you defend Mulally's pay and what it consisted of, that will probably be the most talked about thing in negotiations, second only behind product guarantees for NA plants.

 

The UAW should not care what Mulally or any other non-union worker makes. It's irrelevant to what the union workers deserve in the way of compensation. You're hired to do a specific job and that's all you're entitled to.

 

I can't believe the sense of entitlement that union workers have where they believe they are owed some portion of the company's profits. If you want profits become an owner, otherwise you're just a hired laborer like most of the rest of us. You do your job you get paid. If you don't like the compensation, find a new job. It doesn't matter if the company makes $100B or loses $5B and it doesn't matter what somebody else in the company is paid.

 

Let's say you had a small business and you were paying a janitor $10/hour. Your company hits the jackpot with a new product and makes huge profits. Now the janitor wants $20/hour for doing the same exact job. See how ridiculous that sounds?

[soupy]

 

Let's say you had a small business and you were paying a janitor $10/hour. Your company hits the jackpot with a new product and makes huge profits. Now the janitor wants $20/hour for doing the same exact job. See how ridiculous that sounds?

Absolutely ridiculous. Fire the janitor that makes 10/hr and hire someone who will work for 9. That way you can make huge profits plus one dollar. Your need for greed is satisfied and you help to keep slums populated. You hate unions yet your sense of corporate greed and eliteism are exactly why unions exist today. You perpetuate the very thing you hate.

[RichardJensen]

yet your sense of corporate greed

akirby came out in favor of a COLA component on the next contract, and you think he's got this sense of 'corporate greed'?

 

It's like this: The benefit of being an employee is that your butt isn't on the line. The drawback is that you're compensated accordingly.

 

Mulally's windfall stock options were 100% at risk, based on how he ran the company. Your UAW pay wasn't.

Edited April 29, 2011 by RichardJensen

[Noah Harbinger]

Contracts have been 4 years for the last three contracts, not counting the giveback contract of 2009.

 

And you guys can think of me whatever you want, no matter how much you defend Mulally's pay and what it consisted of, that will probably be the most talked about thing in negotiations, second only behind product guarantees for NA plants.

 

Since Mulally's pay is 85% stock options, if you really want to give him a pay cut, go ahead and strike. The company will go bankrupt, and his remaining options will be worthless.

 

Of course, so will your jobs. And your homes, since thousands of people around you will suddenly be out of work and moving to the more successful states.

[BrewfanGRB]

The complaints presented by the UAW and its members are obstensibly due to claims of "fairness". But it helps to understand, as noted by others, that one person's pay doesn't dictate another person's pay. It's not exactly a zero sum game.

 

It's not as though if Mulally's pay was cut by $10 million, then that $10 million would be given to everyone else. Ford would just pocket it. Why? Because the workers are already being paid what the market dictates their labor is worth. Put another way: It's not that BECAUSE X was given to Mulally, that there is nothing left to give to the workers. Until the next contract is negotiated, Ford doesn't HAVE to give the workers anything. (And even so, hourly workers STILL got $5000, a point Pioneer conveniently elects to leave out of his tirades).

 

Not sure why this is difficult. Were you asked to sacrifice? Absolutely. Given Ford's recovery, do you deserve to be compensated in line with that? Absolutely. Show me where ANYONE has said that you don't. But, complaining about CEO pay is pointless. Unless you are a sole proprietor, SOMEONE in ANY company is going to make a LOT more than you. That doesn't mean you are being paid unfairly.

 

My CEO of my employer (a Fortune 300 company) is paid something that for any ordinary person would be a ridiculous amount of money. But, my employer is nicely profitable, growing and well-run. The company has 20,000 employees. None of that matters because I do what I do. I can only ask that the company pay me something fair for what I do. To that point, I am paid top of the range for my role in my market. Ccompared to what others in the same role get paid at other companies in the area, I am paid better with better benefits. So how has my CEO's millions hurt me? Him getting paid 200k instead of 5M wouldn't give me a raise.

Edited April 29, 2011 by BrewfanGRB

[weiweishen]

Since Mulally's pay is 85% stock options, if you really want to give him a pay cut, go ahead and strike. The company will go bankrupt, and his remaining options will be worthless.

 

Of course, so will your jobs. And your homes, since thousands of people around you will suddenly be out of work and moving to the more successful states.

Communism has already failed in China, in Soviet Union, in North Korean, in Cuba, in vietnann, why those UAW can not understand that rob rich people actually can not make poor rich, never.

[Extreme4x4]

The sad thing is, when I read alot of Pioneers posts............................ not those about pay, or CEO pay specifically........................ he makes great contributions with information that only someone who has worked for Ford for a long time, can give.

 

Then he goes on and on about Mulally's pay, and saying how it comes about means nothing (but it does, because it is a direct reflection of the job he is doing for all), and how unfair it is, and how UAW workers should strike based on it.......................... and I just shake my head. What part of reality does he not get?? The part where there are tens of thousands of people who would happily work in a Ford factory for UAW pay and benefits all day long?? Or the part where the company would not be where they are today, if they did not attract of of the elite CEO's of our time....................... and keep him.

 

So, the question becomes, should Ford strip Mulally of his performance bonus's?? This would lead to someone else swooping in to carry him away, as he is obviously a proven automotive CEO. Or, do they keep the performance bonus's and continue to report how this works out, so nobody can be accused of hiding anything. Fully realizing that some short sighted UAW workers will have their jealousy meter peg out, and start screaming strike.

 

I think that would make a fabulous headline. "Ford UAW workers strike over earned performance bonus by CEO who saved the company."

 

I'm sure that this would have no effect on how people percieve Ford, and that they would just rush right out to continue to buy from this UAW built company. Well, that is, if they would still be in business. Talk about cutting off your nose............................ :rolleyes:

[RichardJensen]

Ultimately, CEO pay is out of hand---but that's not a Ford problem, that's a 'corporate America' problem.

[Noah Harbinger]

Communism has already failed in China, in Soviet Union, in North Korean, in Cuba, in vietnann, why those UAW can not understand that rob rich people actually can not make poor rich, never.

 

I understand that it is easy to misread my opinions, as I present them poorly. I definitely believe workers should be well rewarded for productive work - social unrest is a direct result of average people being dissatisfied with the outcomes of their labor. For perspective, IKEA somehow manages to pay workers in Sweden $16/hour plus excellent working conditions and great benefits (have you seen the vacation time Europeans are mandatorily allotted?), for work they pay $9/hour (with meager benefits) in the USA. [personally I think unions should bargain for more vacation, rather than more pay... but that's another matter]

 

I just don't think it is fair to use the appreciation of stock options (which had zero value when they were awarded, and only gain great value through effecting great positive change in the company) in arguments about the proportionality of CEO pay. Maybe Pioneer should bitch for stock options, instead of bitching about stock options someone else got?

Edited April 29, 2011 by Noah Harbinger

[mettech]

Absolutely ridiculous. Fire the janitor that makes 10/hr and hire someone who will work for 9. That way you can make huge profits plus one dollar. Your need for greed is satisfied and you help to keep slums populated. You hate unions yet your sense of corporate greed and eliteism are exactly why unions exist today. You perpetuate the very thing you hate.

 

 

Pay should be based on skill and responsibility.

 

All employees should be treated alike... if you don't like the job or benefits, find another company to work for.

 

Why should the "blue collar" employees be treated any different?

 

However, an employer does have the responsibility to treat their employees fairly. Profits should be shared according to the skill and responsibility that the employee has or the job requires.

 

It is my understanding that the UAW members have been awarded bonuses (unlike shareholders ) and the UAW benefits are still way above the average non skill worker. That sounds like more than a fair deal to me.

 

It appears to me that the CEO has been rewarded by the Board for a fair compensation (compared to other CEOs), but the UAW is demanding compensation that far exceeds the the skills and responsibility for the jobs they perform.

 

If the CEO doesn't get the benefits they want, they leave and find another company to work for. If the UAW doesn't get what they want, they shut the company down with a walkout strike.

 

It sure looks like the UAW is ".. perpetuate the very thing you hate." :shades:

 

Talk about elites..

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Wow, I love what I hear on here...

 

CEO pay is out of hand in this country because of two factors. The first is that for most of the last decade, everyone has focused on short term gains at the expense of long term profit and stability. They bid up CEOs that have shown in the past to have the know how to squeeze a company for short term stock price gains or other money output to extremely high pay levels. None of them worry about that pay as it likely won't be booked until after their short term gains have paid out for them. The second is that the supply of proven, competent CEOs in the US is quite low. I'm not talking about people that run fortune 500-2000 companies, I'm talking about people that have gotten their hands dirty tweaking their top 200 company along the way to help it stay healthy and profitable. Most of them are well invested in their current place of work, have stability, and know their company intimately. Getting them to leave takes BIG money as you take away their certainty. The successful ones are courted almost constantly and have many alternatives to go to, thus, high demand, low supply. It doesn't get much more basic than that.

 

As for corporate profits, the average employee isn't owed anything above their agreed upon compensation. Period. Believing that you, as an employee, have ANY claim whatsoever to corporate profits is a function of the entitlement mentality that is ruining this country. If you want a claim to that profit, you also have to take a portion of the risk of failure, and that's through an ownership stake. Ask for an ESOP program to be started, or, for Ford's UAW negotiations, ask for stock to be included in your pay. As your productivity stays high and your efficiency is good, that aspect of the company will be healthy and you're likely to see the value of that stock rise and possibly, even a dividend some day. But, the consequence there is, if you strike, or your productivity faulters for whatever reason, so does the value of that stock. Hmm, can't have a disincentive for job actions, can we? You want all the rewards and none of the risks. Again, entitlement mentality.

 

Now, I can COMPLETELY understand the UAW wanting some give back from Ford since they are now recovering well and since it was at least partly due to UAW concessions that Ford has improved their financial position. I get that. That's why you go to the negotiating table. HEck, I'm all for the UAW getting COLAs back for the workers, maybe negotiating for some more vacation, improved work rules here and there, even tweaking the entry level/high level pay ratios a bit. I'm VERY in favor of them even asking for an ESOP program, or expansions to one that may already exist, for their workers in the negotiations. Heck, I'd also be looking for improvements to retirement plans at this point, as it looks like Social Security and Medicare are likely to face significant custs in the future. But keep what you're asking for reasonable. The economy is still in the crapper. Gas prices are still rising. And there are still all kinds of uncertainties in the economy going forward. And, if you start demanding a job bank or whatever Ford's program was called, or start complaining to high heaven about Alan's compensation package again, you've lost any support for your requests that I have.

 

Remember, while Ford needs you, and you need Ford, Ford can also use MANY others that are out there, currently unemployeed with years of experience doing your same jobs. THAT adversely affects the supply/demand ratio of your labor. You're only current protection against that is state labor laws at present, and those seem to be coming under more and more fire as time goes on.

[jpd80]

The Fords like the way Mullaly runs THEIR COMPANY and are happy to pay him what they feels he deserves.