Ford to invest $1B to revive Lincoln

[BORG]

I have a 2011 Ford Edge in the family to play with next to my 2011 MKX. The D37 has gobs more torque than the D35 engine, but it comes on late so you don't really experience the difference unless you are at speed. In daily driving conditions, they don't feel like significantly different drive-trains. The D37 also makes ample use of the AWD system to really put that power down to the road so the experience dramatically transforms the car from a pleasant cruiser to a sports car, you have some nice flexibility and 'confidence' with a D37.

Edited June 22, 2011 by BORG

[F250]

 

What to Police fleet sales? :lol:

 

Just like Ford;

 

[F250]

It will be interesting to see Lincoln's new plan and see if it can be rolled out in time to save the brand.....

 

 

Why does it need "saving"? It's doing just fine as is.

 

Really. Lincoln is doing just fine as is.

Um....ok

[suv_guy_19]

Congratulations - you're qualified to write for Motor Trend!

 

It's a front wheel drive car. Now that I drive a RWD (well AWD with RWD bias) all of the time, I can't go back. I have to eat yeas of words to say this too.

[akirby]

Really. Lincoln is doing just fine as is.

Um....ok

 

They're selling 80K + vehicles using no dedicated plants or platforms and with minimal incentives. More importantly - Ford doesn't need Lincoln to be profitable right now thanks to the performance of the Ford brand.

 

So from a business standpoint they're doing just fine as is until the new plan gets implemented. You and several others only look at Lincoln from a consumer standpoint and without taking into account the planned future changes.

[F250]

In all seriousness, what tech does Lexus have that you can't get on a Toyota?

 

Anyways, why not offer that tech on Titanium level Fords? I'm sure that a loaded to the gills Titanium Flex is more profitable then a MKT for Ford.

 

Theres more to building a Luxury brand then keeping the newest toys on them vis your run of the mill brand.

 

Exactly. Kill Lincoln and just build the best Fords possible in a Titanium model.

Step one is complete, stand alone Lincoln / ex-Mercury dealers have been folded into Ford stores. This did not have the effect of improving Lincoln's high end luxury car image. Even when Toyota launched the Lexus brand they demanded it had to be on a seperate lot from the Toyota franchise.

Mercedes is Mercedes and BMW is BMW they are not the high end model / brand of a basic transporation manufacturer. A 7-Series BMW does not sit next to a Mini in the showroom. That means something to true luxury car buyers.

 

Personally I have no interest in Lincoln at this time the brand is so diluted it's just a drain on Fords. Is it worth pouring resources into over a long period of time? How well did that work with Jaguar.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Just like Ford;

 

Except the Taurus PI isn't even being sold yet, so your point is moot.

[akirby]

It's a front wheel drive car. Now that I drive a RWD (well AWD with RWD bias) all of the time, I can't go back. I have to eat yeas of words to say this too.

 

I went from RWD manual Rangers and a RWD V8 Lincoln LS to a FWD Fusion V6. There isn't much if any difference unless you're at WOT or doing 60 through the twisties which I just don't do any more. All FWD vehicles are not the same.

 

But that was mostly a jab at MT, not you.

[F250]

Except the Taurus PI isn't even being sold yet, so your point is moot.

 

No, you just missed it. The point is Ford is going after the same fleet market with Taurus and other models. Will the FWD Taurus outsell the V8-RWD Charger to police fleets? Becha a beer it doesnt.

[papilgee4evaeva]

No, you just missed it. The point is Ford is going after the same fleet market with Taurus and other models. Will the FWD Taurus outsell the V8-RWD Charger to police fleets? Becha a beer it doesnt.

The original point is that the Charger is currently outselling the Taurus likely on the back of fleet sales, most notably to police agencies. No one gave any prognosis about next year.

 

No beer for me though. Never touch the stuff.

[spotdog14]

I usually don't chime in to much here but thought I would put my two cents in. My girlfriend has a new Charger and I have a '10 Fusion I-4. Its like night and day between the two vehicles (even though according to the numbers the interior space is damn near the same). The Fusion seems more refined and just a pleasure to drive whereas the Charger feels like I am constantly fighting it to do what I want (for some reason the steering is just difficult). I don't understand the comparison between the two in this thread because they really are not meant to be shopped together.

[silvrsvt]

Exactly. Kill Lincoln and just build the best Fords possible in a Titanium model.

 

That wasn't my point, the problem is that can't go charging 50K+ for a Taurus Titanium model to replace an MKS

 

Step one is complete, stand alone Lincoln / ex-Mercury dealers have been folded into Ford stores. This did not have the effect of improving Lincoln's high end luxury car image. Even when Toyota launched the Lexus brand they demanded it had to be on a seperate lot from the Toyota franchise.

Mercedes is Mercedes and BMW is BMW they are not the high end model / brand of a basic transporation manufacturer. A 7-Series BMW does not sit next to a Mini in the showroom. That means something to true luxury car buyers.

 

I think your expectations are set way too high...I don't see Lincoln trying to compete with Mercedes and BMW on the high end. Keep in mind the vast majority of luxury car sales are leases of lower end products. Ford can make lots of money on 40K+ MKZ's and MKX's vs trying to sell a 80k Flagship car that sells in the same number or worse as a MKT does.

 

 

As for dealership experiences....how different is it to have Fords selling next to Lincolns now, instead of Mercuries? Mercuries where nothing more then gussied up Fords..just replace Mercury with the Titanium trim level (which might even be nicer then Mercury ever was) and you have the same car. I haven't seen specifics about how Lincoln is going to be segregated from Ford when they share a dealership either...I don't think that is going to dissuade a perspective buyer...doesn't seem like its hurting Hyundai with the Genesis or Eqquis. Ford doesn't need to copy what BMW or MB does...they need to carve out their own niche in the Luxury market with Lincoln.

 

What it boils down to is that Luxury is more then just sheetmetal and tech in a car...its an ownership experience of that product or an expectation of an ownership expectation....which help explains why Range Rover still moves product when they are one of the most unreliable car makes out there.

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2011 by silvrsvt

[atvman]

Ford needs to ignore what BMW is doing, what Mercedes Benz is doing, what Lexus is doing, what Cadillac is doing, etc. Why? BMW is doing what works for BMW, Mercedes Benz is doing what works for Mercedes Benz, etc. Lincoln needs to come up with their own formula and make it work. I think they should just build six core models and be done with it:

 

3 cars:

Zephyr (MKZ): This is the entry level model. Make it spacious, comfortable, and stylish. FWD and FWD/AWD is acceptable. Hybrid drive should be an option. It should pack a lot of tech features for the money as well. EUCD2 will be more than adequate for this car’s target.

 

Mark XI (MKR): This is the sport model. It needs to be a RWD, driver focused model. Give it the typical Lincoln interior and features. Put this on an all new RWD chassis. A coupe and hard top convertible should be in the cards. The platform can be shared with the Mustang and a global Falcon.

 

Continental (MKS): This is the luxury flagship. It needs to be all about pampering the driver and passengers. FWD/AWD is fine if they tune the chassis properly, it needs to be highly refined with major emphasis on ride quality and control. It doesn’t need to be sporty, just extremely quiet and comfortable.

 

3 CUV/SUVs

Admiral (MKEscape): Base it on the new Kuga/Escape platform. Like the Zephyr, it needs to be the entry level luxury car with a lot of features for the price. Give it a hybrid option.

 

Aviator (MKX): Like the Continental, this should be an all-out luxury ride focused on pampering the driver and passengers. EUCD2 is acceptable.

 

Navigator: Base it on the MKT/Flex platform, but give it more traditional SUV styling (like the Explorer). It can replace both the Navigator and MKT. It needs to be another all-out luxury model with three useable rows of space.

[atvman]

I've never driven a Taurus, but I don't expect it to be much better. I will say this though - I like the way the Focus drives better than the Fusion. It's just something about it. My point was that the 300 and Charger are not POSs at at all.

I drove an MKS EcoBoost, a FWD MKS, and a Taurus before buying my 2011 R/T. I wanted to buy a FoMoCo product because they've treated me well in the past, but I ended up buying the better car. I wanted to like the Fords, I tried to like the Fords, but I couldn't get over how good the Charger is in comparison. Haters can hate and fanboys can spend their money on whatever they want, but I'm not going to fall into that trap. I'm a Ford fan, and I find it a little embarrassing that a $35K Charger is legitimately better than a $50K Lincoln.

[akirby]

I drove an MKS EcoBoost, a FWD MKS, and a Taurus before buying my 2011 R/T. I wanted to buy a FoMoCo product because they've treated me well in the past, but I ended up buying the better car. I wanted to like the Fords, I tried to like the Fords, but I couldn't get over how good the Charger is in comparison. Haters can hate and fanboys can spend their money on whatever they want, but I'm not going to fall into that trap. I'm a Ford fan, and I find it a little embarrassing that a $35K Charger is legitimately better than a $50K Lincoln.

 

Define "legitimately better".

 

Better fit and finish?

Better interior materials?

Better amenities?

Better acceleration?

Better braking?

Better handling?

Better infotainment?

[jcthorne]

Lincoln's problem isn't only that they look like Fords, it's also that they drive like Fords. When I test drove the MKS, it felt like a mainstream car in a pretty dress. Same with the MKZ. Dynamics that are perfectly acceptable, maybe even class leading, in a mainstream car are not good enough for a luxury car. My Charger feels more like a proper luxury car behind the wheel than either of the current Lincoln sedans. My dad's 160K mile LS does as well. Unless Lincoln can make their cars feel premium, looking premium isn't going to save them.

 

 

If you think a new Lincoln needs to ride like a big luxo boat, that is exactly the driving dynamic they are trying to get away from. The drivers that prefer that are fewer and getting old. We would never have bought our MKT had it drove like a TC.

 

I think the driving dynamics of Fords large current gen cars are near the top of the design pool. Better in many aspects than similar size Benz and Lexus offerings.

[atvman]

Define "legitimately better".

 

Better fit and finish?

Better interior materials?

Better amenities?

Better acceleration?

Better braking?

Better handling?

Better infotainment?

Fit and finish was roughly the same, the Lincoln maybe having a slight edge. Panel gaps in both cars are tight and consistent.

 

As I've stated before in this thread, the Lincoln's interior materials are better than what's in the Dodge. I do prefer the Dodge's seats though, which more than makes up for the dash materials.

 

The only thing I noticed that you could get in an MKS that you can't get in a Charger is cooled seats. On the flip side, you can get a heated steering wheel and heated/cooled cupholders in the Dodge and I'm not sure you can in the MKS. I could be wrong though.

 

Acceleration was mostly a draw, you'd have to run them side by side to notice a difference. The 3.5L EcoBoost is strong and the MKS has better gearing, but the Charger feels like it pulls harder in each gear.

 

The Charger's brakes kill the MKS's brakes.

 

The Charger thoroughly outhandles the MKS. It may or may not have more lateral grip, but the steering is more responsive and the car reacts to inputs better.

 

You didn't mention ride quality, but I'd put them about the same. The MKS is less firm over small ripples. The worse the pavement, the more I'd lean in favor of the Dodge though. It has a longer wheelbase and better weight distribution, so it feels more planted on the real choppy and broken stuff.

 

Have you used Chrysler's latest touch screen U-Connect system? It's on the same level as MFT without the notorious bugs.

Edited June 22, 2011 by atvman

[BORG]

Fit and finish was roughly the same, the Lincoln maybe having a slight edge. Panel gaps in both cars are tight and consistent.

 

As I've stated before in this thread, the Lincoln's interior materials are better than what's in the Dodge. I do prefer the Dodge's seats though, which more than makes up for the dash materials.

 

The only thing I noticed that you could get in an MKS that you can't get in a Charger is cooled seats. On the flip side, you can get a heated steering wheel and heated/cooled cupholders in the Dodge and I'm not sure you can in the MKS. I could be wrong though.

 

Acceleration was mostly a draw, you'd have to run them side by side to notice a difference. The 3.5L EcoBoost is strong and the MKS has better gearing, but the Charger feels like it pulls harder in each gear.

 

The Charger's brakes kill the MKS's brakes.

 

The Charger thoroughly outhandles the MKS. It may or may not have more lateral grip, but the steering is more responsive and the car reacts to inputs better.

 

You didn't mention ride quality, but I'd put them about the same. The MKS is less firm over small ripples. The worse the pavement, the more I'd lean in favor of the Dodge though. It has a longer wheelbase and better weight distribution, so it feels more planted on the real choppy and broken stuff.

 

Have you used Chrysler's latest touch screen U-Connect system? It's on the same level as MFT without the notorious bugs.

 

 

There is a huge difference between the MKS and Charger. I've spent allot of time in both and there is just no comparison at all! The MKS Ecoboost drives like silk, it's FAR quieter, smoother with a far less intrusive transmission. The AWD system plants the power down hard at all corners of this car, it's impossible to get this thing to loose composure with all that boosted torque, especially when tossing it around (my MKX works the same miracles with AWD). The whole chassis and drive train is geared toward a confidence inspiring experience without irritating you (like the LS did and Charger does for me). The cabin is taller and more spacious, not to mention surrounded in gorgeous materials, colors, and a more attractive design. The experience is not comparable and I think you're excitement for the car you own is clouding your judgement. A Taurus owner could say the exact same thing about their new baby. You can try and convince yourself you have bought an MKS-equivalent, but you haven't. You have a good car, I'll give you that, but you need to draw more reasonable conclusions about your comparison.

 

The only thing I will say is that the U-Connect system is great, a real hidden gem at Chrysler, although the My Ford Touch system is better largely because of the dashboard and steering wheel integration. If Ford could get the center stack to work as well as U-Connect (not to mention the larger screen), then I'll be thrilled.

Edited June 22, 2011 by BORG

[suv_guy_19]

I went from RWD manual Rangers and a RWD V8 Lincoln LS to a FWD Fusion V6. There isn't much if any difference unless you're at WOT or doing 60 through the twisties which I just don't do any more. All FWD vehicles are not the same.

 

 

You're probably like. I guess my real point is that I don't like the way that the Fusion (and by extension, probably the MKS) drives. I'm hoping when I go to look at a new car in a few years, the Taurus or Edge will surprise me.

 

 

[suv_guy_19]

You can try and convince yourself you have bought an MKS-equivalent, but you haven't. You have a good car, I'll give you that, but you need to draw more reasonable conclusions about your comparison.

 

The top level 300C isn't much if any worse than an MKS, and if my lowly 300 Touring AWD is any indication, it will drive well too. seriously, Chrysler is a mess, but the 300, Charger, and new Jeep are something to boast about.

[NickF1011]

Exactly what is wrong with the current D30? I understand that there are more modern DOHC V6s on the market today, but for its size its pretty competitive. My Escape is a riot to drive and I would not hesitate at all to line it up at a stop light next to an Edge with the D35. Even after owning it a few months I still think "whoa you have some nuts little dude" when I punch the gas on it.

 

Oh, it's not awful. I had one in my Mazda6 and never had any complaints about it. However, if it can be replaced by a more efficient and equally powerful EcoBoost engine with better NVH characteristics, then there's no reason not to. It's not a negative trade-off by any means. Remember when Ford stopped putting V6 badges on the Escape? Ford seemed ahead of the curve (at least amongst the domestics) in pushing a "bigger doesn't always mean better" attitude when it comes to powertrains.

[BORG]

The top level 300C isn't much if any worse than an MKS, and if my lowly 300 Touring AWD is any indication, it will drive well too. seriously, Chrysler is a mess, but the 300, Charger, and new Jeep are something to boast about.

 

Oh, I love what Chrysler is doing. The new Grand Cherokee is 3rd on my list of vehicles I am considering for my next car, and I would probably pick the 300C over the current MKS right now. Quiet honestly, Chrysler now has some of the most appealing products in Detroit, I just don't' trust them and they still have work to do on some of the finer interior details.

Edited June 22, 2011 by BORG

[silvrsvt]

Remember when Ford stopped putting V6 badges on the Escape? Ford seemed ahead of the curve (at least amongst the domestics) in pushing a "bigger doesn't always mean better" attitude when it comes to powertrains.

 

I saw an newer Escape with them on the Fenders, and thought to myself...did they just add them this past model year? The GF's 09 Escape doesnt have them

[papilgee4evaeva]

For comparison's sake, I'd like to share this analogy:

 

Taurus : Charger :: MKS : 300

 

Makes a huge difference when you do comparisons that way.

[Arniect]

I saw an newer Escape with them on the Fenders, and thought to myself...did they just add them this past model year? The GF's 09 Escape doesnt have them

 

2008 V6 Escapes have V6 badges on the fenders, 09 and newer do not.