NickF1011 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 For that I would get the larger 3.7L engine, but 1mpg less gas mileage. Not a good traded off in my opinion because the extra weight of the 3.7 negates any noticeable performance advantage between the two... The 3.7 and 3.5 I would assume are virtually the same weight. And trust me, the power difference is quite noticable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 That won't be the case with the new Lincolns and they'll get a lot of new Lincoln exclusive features. The exclusive features will only last so long until the masses demand them in Ford branded products. Could you imagine if Ford would have started new features like SYNC, MyFordTouch, Capless fuel filler, auto parking, etc. and not given them to their mass brand? The problem with saying that new technology and better powertrains are only going to be reserved for the Lincoln brand will dumb down the Ford brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The exclusive features will only last so long until the masses demand them in Ford branded products. Could you imagine if Ford would have started new features like SYNC, MyFordTouch, Capless fuel filler, auto parking, etc. and not given them to their mass brand? The problem with saying that new technology and better powertrains are only going to be reserved for the Lincoln brand will dumb down the Ford brand. You offer the features that would be too expensive to offer on the cheaper Ford. As the options become cheaper to produce, that's when you offer them on the Ford version. By then, you'll have even newer tech to throw on the Lincoln to keep it a step ahead. It's not neglecting the mainstream brand, it's keeping the mainstream brand's pricing in check. It's really not rocket science. It's how luxury manufacturers have been doing it for a century now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The exclusive features will only last so long until the masses demand them in Ford branded products. Could you imagine if Ford would have started new features like SYNC, MyFordTouch, Capless fuel filler, auto parking, etc. and not given them to their mass brand? The problem with saying that new technology and better powertrains are only going to be reserved for the Lincoln brand will dumb down the Ford brand. The masses can demand all they want, but once the Lincoln brand is established then Ford has a choice as to what they offer on Fords and what they reserve for Lincoln. We're not talking about the current features - we're talking about retractible glass roofs and electronically controlled suspensions - things that should only be on Lincolns. In some cases it might eliminate a feature from a Ford (such as no V6 in the new Fusion e.g.) but that's the way it should work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) You offer the features that would be too expensive to offer on the cheaper Ford. As the options become cheaper to produce, that's when you offer them on the Ford version. By then, you'll have even newer tech to throw on the Lincoln to keep it a step ahead. It's not neglecting the mainstream brand, it's keeping the mainstream brand's pricing in check. It's really not rocket science. It's how luxury manufacturers have been doing it for a century now. I understand what you are saying, however Ford has been really good at bringing class leading technology and features to their mainstream brand. I would hate to see features held back and Fords decontented just to make Lincoln look better. In some cases it might eliminate a feature from a Ford (such as no V6 in the new Fusion e.g.) but that's the way it should work. It is unacceptable to detune Fords just to make Lincolns look more powerful. You might have the cash to buy Lincoln vehicles, but I don't. Edited June 21, 2011 by 2005Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I understand what you are saying, however Ford has been really good at bringing class leading technology and features to their mainstream brand. I would hate to see features held back and Fords decontented just to make Lincoln look better. As was said, we aren't talking current tech. We're talking cutting edge stuff that other luxury automakers are now just starting to introduce. Things that we wouldn't have ordinarily seen in any vehicles, let alone mainstream ones. There has always been technology that is limited to luxury brands. It will always be that way. Does it trickle down? Yes. But the reason these things start on luxury cars is that in a lot of cases, it ain't cheap! It is unacceptable to detune Fords just to make Lincolns look more powerful. You might have the cash to buy Lincoln vehicles, but I don't. I don't think it's a matter of artificially doing anything. I see the luxury and non-luxury markets divergin on their own. Look at Hyundai. There's no V6 in the Sonata. Word is the next gen Malibu will not offer one either. I'd say there's a good chance the Fusion will not offer one either. Not because Ford will be trying to artificially separate Lincoln from Ford, but because they might feel people shopping for Fords aren't going to be interested in a V6 in the Fusion anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 You offer the features that would be too expensive to offer on the cheaper Ford. As the options become cheaper to produce, that's when you offer them on the Ford version. By then, you'll have even newer tech to throw on the Lincoln to keep it a step ahead. It's not neglecting the mainstream brand, it's keeping the mainstream brand's pricing in check. It's really not rocket science. It's how luxury manufacturers have been doing it for a century now. In all seriousness, what tech does Lexus have that you can't get on a Toyota? Anyways, why not offer that tech on Titanium level Fords? I'm sure that a loaded to the gills Titanium Flex is more profitable then a MKT for Ford. Theres more to building a Luxury brand then keeping the newest toys on them vis your run of the mill brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 It is unacceptable to detune Fords just to make Lincolns look more powerful. You might have the cash to buy Lincoln vehicles, but I don't. You don't get to decide what's acceptable or not. If you want a feature that Ford decides to only offer on Lincolns then you either pony up or go buy something else. The reason Ford went all out on the Ford models is they were trying to turn around the brand quickly and they didn't have to worry about Lincoln at the time. That's why the Taurus got some stuff the MKS still doesn't have. That may change slightly but overall I think you'll see Ford taking the Lincolns even higher than where the Fords are now so you won't see a lot of decontenting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 As was said, we aren't talking current tech. We're talking cutting edge stuff that other luxury automakers are now just starting to introduce. Things that we wouldn't have ordinarily seen in any vehicles, let alone mainstream ones. There has always been technology that is limited to luxury brands. It will always be that way. Does it trickle down? Yes. But the reason these things start on luxury cars is that in a lot of cases, it ain't cheap! I don't think it's a matter of artificially doing anything. I see the luxury and non-luxury markets divergin on their own. Look at Hyundai. There's no V6 in the Sonata. Word is the next gen Malibu will not offer one either. I'd say there's a good chance the Fusion will not offer one either. Not because Ford will be trying to artificially separate Lincoln from Ford, but because they might feel people shopping for Fords aren't going to be interested in a V6 in the Fusion anymore. I'm fine with them introducing features that most people can live without because they would only add extra cost to the mainstream Ford brand. I will be upset however if Fords start to be decontented in order to make Lincoln appear better. Not offering high performance engines in Ford vehicles because they are only reserved for Lincoln is a terrible idea. I'm pretty darn happy with the V6 in my Escape and next time around if I want a powerful small CUV I have to get a Lincoln? Stupid. Ford has always offered similar engines and performance between Ford and Lincoln. Building special engines just for Lincoln doesn't make a lot of sense if they are committed to platform sharing. I can see it now... The next Fusion will be detuned into some wimpy 4 cylinder only model and the MKZ will get the powerful Eco-boost 4 and V6 engines. I guess if Ford wants to make their volume brand customers feel like second class citizens then this is a good strategy. I just don't see this happening. The competition in the mainstream market is just too strong to only give Lincoln performance powertrains and let Ford have the detuned models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 In all seriousness, what tech does Lexus have that you can't get on a Toyota? Mark Levinson sound system, cooled front seats, driver's seat power cushion extender, Panorama glass roof, power rear sunshade, adaptive HID headlights, pre-collision system and adaptive cruise control, and a better warranty with free loaners. That's just on the ES over the Camry. Then you have things offered on the LS that you won't find on any Toyota: Water-repellant front door glass Auto-folding power outside mirrors with auto reverse tilt-down Auto-leveling, adaptive HID headlights Intelligent high beams Headlamp washers Power door closers Heated steering wheel Power rear seats with power headrests Rear seat lumbar massage and 4-way power lumbar adjustment Air suspension Heated/cooled rear seats Power rear door sunshades Rear seat air purifier Power rear recliner with foot rests I'm sure I missed a few. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) The 3.7 and 3.5 I would assume are virtually the same weight. And trust me, the power difference is quite noticable. The wording did not come out quite right. The MKX is over 100lb heaver than the Edge Limited. I am pretty sure that the 3.7L is a little heaver than the 3.5L ( Cooling system maybe?) That would easily negate the 20 extra hp or so.... Maybe he extra sound damping that Arikby was talking about accounts for the weight difference. I have driven both on the same highway and did not think there was any difference in road noise.....( Wife insists that the Edge was quieter, but being an accountant she might be swayed a little by the price difference ) Edited June 21, 2011 by sranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) I'm fine with them introducing features that most people can live without because they would only add extra cost to the mainstream Ford brand. I will be upset however if Fords start to be decontented in order to make Lincoln appear better. Not offering high performance engines in Ford vehicles because they are only reserved for Lincoln is a terrible idea. I'm pretty darn happy with the V6 in my Escape and next time around if I want a powerful small CUV I have to get a Lincoln? Stupid. Ford has always offered similar engines and performance between Ford and Lincoln. Building special engines just for Lincoln doesn't make a lot of sense if they are committed to platform sharing. I can see it now... The next Fusion will be detuned into some wimpy 4 cylinder only model and the MKZ will get the powerful Eco-boost 4 and V6 engines. I guess if Ford wants to make their volume brand customers feel like second class citizens then this is a good strategy. I just don't see this happening. The competition in the mainstream market is just too strong to only give Lincoln performance powertrains and let Ford have the detuned models. If Ford stops offering powertrain choices in their vehicles it will only because the market isn't asking for them. The high take rate on the 4 cylinder in the Fusion and Escape, for example, makes it very likely in my eyes that both, save for possibly a small volume Sport model...maybe, will only offer 4 cylinder engines. Now, I would be certain that one of those 4 cylinders would be of the EcoBoost variety offering more than adequate power (probably about equal to what the current V6 offers), so no need to get all bent out of shape about no longer having that oh-so-awesome (sarcasm) 3.0 Duratec available. Edited June 21, 2011 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The wording did not come out quite right. The MKX is over 100lb heaver than the Edge Limited. I am pretty sure that the 3.7L is a little heaver than the 3.5L ( Cooling system maybe?) That would easily negate the 20 extra hp or so.... Maybe he extra sound damping that Arikby was talking about accounts for the weight difference. I have driven both on the same highway and did not think there was any difference in road noise.....( Wife insists that the Edge was quite, but being an accountant she might be swayed a little by the price ) For a more accurate comparison, look at the Edge Sport vs the Limited. The Sport offers a much more spirited drive. Only weight difference I could really account for there would be the wheel/tire combination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 We haven't seen any news on the next gen F-150 yet either, does that mean they are cancelling it? My thoughts are that the Expy/Navi development will be re-paired with the next gen F-150 and they will all launch at or near the same time. funny...no-one has mentioned perhaps a 3.5 eco Expedition/ Navigator .......after all the 5.4 is gone burger..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 funny...no-one has mentioned perhaps a 3.5 eco Expedition/ Navigator Since it's in the F150 it would almost be a foregone conclusion....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Why does it need "saving"? It's doing just fine as is. You forgot free maintenance and a significantly longer warranty, more sound deadening, etc. I normally prefer the Lincolns but we did the same comparison and ended up with a 08 Limited Edge over the MkX and back then it was only a $4K difference. You do make a good point about the Warranty and the service, but I am not sure it is enough to justify the price. My biggest problem is that my closest Lincoln dealer's service department is horrible. Many of their customers wind up having to take their cars to the local Ford dealership to get them repaired. My Local Ford dealer offered me a 4 year 100K mileage Ford ( can't remember what Ford calls it) warranty extension if I bought the Edge for $250.00 ( Seemed reasonable.... ) I can only keep vehicle for 4 model years.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ANTAUS Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Didn't someone test the Edge with the 3.5L and the 3.7L in the Sport, and found the 3.7L was slower because of the weight of the big wheels ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I'm fine with them introducing features that most people can live without because they would only add extra cost to the mainstream Ford brand. I will be upset however if Fords start to be decontented in order to make Lincoln appear better. Not offering high performance engines in Ford vehicles because they are only reserved for Lincoln is a terrible idea. Nobody is saying they will artificially limit content on Fords just to make Lincolns more appealing. What Lincoln has already said is they will introduce even better more exclusive features for Lincoln that aren't currently available on Fords. As for the engines - I think you'll see (as an example) Ford continue with 3.5L and 3.5L Ecoboost engines while Lincoln gets 3.7L and 3.7L Ecoboost versions. Ford has always offered similar engines and performance between Ford and Lincoln. Building special engines just for Lincoln doesn't make a lot of sense if they are committed to platform sharing. And that's EXACTLY why Lincoln has no respect right now - because in the past there wasn't much to distinguish Lincoln from Ford. That has to change or there is no point in having Lincoln and there is no way you can get premium prices like Lexus, Infiniti, MB, etc. with the Ford brand. And we're not talking about brand new engines - just Lincoln specific versions (like the 3.5 vs. 3.7 above). Once again the only perspective you seem to have is what YOU like and don't like and you have no concept of corporate decision making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 You do make a good point about the Warranty and the service, but I am not sure it is enough to justify the price. I thought I explained that. I agree it's not enough currently to justify the price. This is what I believe Lincoln is doing. They're keeping the ATPs high on the Lincoln models even if sales volumes are low. They're resisting cutting prices and putting cash on the hood. They don't need Lincoln to be profitable right now - the Ford brand has taken care of that. When they roll out the new models that do have more differentiation, better style, features, power, etc. they'll debut at the same or close the same price as the current model and everyone will marvel at how much they improved for the same price. As opposed to going for more sales now and then having to raise prices later. I think long term it's the right strategy and that's why I don't put much emphasis on current sales volumes. They're artificially low but it will pay off down the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I have to admit that I did drive to a Lincoln dealer ( About 40 miles away) a few days ago to see a loaded AWD MKX in black/Stone. It did look very nice in person... One other thing: I noticed that NO dealer in the Atlanta area has any AWD Edges in stock.... They are not as popular here in the south, but I called 20 dealers and NO one had one. Usually the dealers have one or two... Was there some type of production limits on AWD's models this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Didn't someone test the Edge with the 3.5L and the 3.7L in the Sport, and found the 3.7L was slower because of the weight of the big wheels ? They can say all they want. I've driven both. It's not even close. Even the "seat-of-the-pants" computer can tell. Although I believe the test you are referring to were both FWD models, which I haven't driven. Edited June 21, 2011 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BORG Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 (edited) Lincoln has a modest target volume for the US, which will probably be achieved thanks to more entry-level models that start in the $29K range. From my perspective, as a Lincoln buyer, the main reason Lincoln lost all those sales is because the deals (with the exception of the MKZ) are terrible. They are not incentivizing customers anymore beyond the merit of their own product. Prices on Lincoln's have also jumped substantially, they are selling very expensive vehicles from bottom to top, no stripped or plastic-filler versions like you'll find at Caddy! If you want a $34K MKX, you'll have to buy the Edge SEL (which is a much better car to start with anyway). My MKX is a good example, my first fully-loaded MKX was $43K, my 2011 MKX is $53K! It is true that the biggest difference with the Lincoln plan now is targeted at the dealer level, no more Mercury and more enforced standards and practices among fewer outlets. And should Ford need to shutter Lincoln, they are fewer franchises to pay off. I'm also glad to see Ford hasn't forced content out of Ford to reserve it for Lincoln. Edited June 21, 2011 by BORG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 no need to get all bent out of shape about no longer having that oh-so-awesome (sarcasm) 3.0 Duratec available. Exactly what is wrong with the current D30? I understand that there are more modern DOHC V6s on the market today, but for its size its pretty competitive. My Escape is a riot to drive and I would not hesitate at all to line it up at a stop light next to an Edge with the D35. Even after owning it a few months I still think "whoa you have some nuts little dude" when I punch the gas on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Curious....how much does 1 billion buy? If Lincoln is going forward with completely unique sheet metal as noted in the release a week or two ago, does 1 billion seem like enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Curious....how much does 1 billion buy? If Lincoln is going forward with completely unique sheet metal as noted in the release a week or two ago, does 1 billion seem like enough? It's not just the sheet metal they are changing. They are also planning on unique engines and special features. If you tack on a successful long term marketing plan as well you would think it would cost more then $1 billion, but I am not an expert on vehicle development costs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.