7Mary3 Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I want to start a new topic thread just for the upcoming 'new' F-650 that is supposed to be built in Ohio. Post any and all information, rumors, speculation, wild rumors, spy photos, links, ect. here. I figure (FWIW!) that we should be hearing something soon if the truck is supposed to come out in 2014. Let's try to track down that Magical Mystery Avon Lake Medium Duty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 I want to start a new topic thread just for the upcoming 'new' F-650 that is supposed to be built in Ohio. Post any and all information, rumors, speculation, wild rumors, spy photos, links, ect. here. I figure (FWIW!) that we should be hearing something soon if the truck is supposed to come out in 2014. Let's try to track down that Magical Mystery Avon Lake Medium Duty! 7M-Good idea! First question-is your reference to "650" vs "650/750" an oversight or is something telling you there won't be a class 7??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted November 30, 2011 Author Share Posted November 30, 2011 (edited) 7M-Good idea! First question-is your reference to "650" vs "650/750" an oversight or is something telling you there won't be a class 7??? No reason to think there will not be a 750 at this time. I am hearing a rumor that International will consolidate Escobedo and Springfield production in the large new plant they are taking over in Barton Alabama. I wonder if it will effect the Blue Diamond trucks. Edited November 30, 2011 by 7Mary3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 No reason to think there will not be a 750 at this time. I am hearing a rumor that International will consolidate Escobedo and Springfield production in the large new plant they are taking over in Barton Alabama. I wonder if it will effect the Blue Diamond trucks. Well if that rumor is true, and it happens before Avon Lake is up and running, I can see a few thousand white 650/750's sitting in dealer lots like they did with the F-8000's when KTP converted to pick ups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 1, 2011 Share Posted December 1, 2011 (edited) No proof, but I'm betting Blue Diamond will soon longer exist. I did find this. Navistar International Corporation (NIC) is a holding company that operates through its principal operating subsidiaries, Navistar, Inc. and Navistar Financial Corporation (NFC). The Company operates in four segments: Truck, Engine, Parts (collectively called manufacturing operations), and Financial Services, which consists of NFC and its foreign finance operations (collectively called financial services operations). In June 2009, the Company increased its equity interest in its Blue Diamond Truck and Blue Diamond Parts joint ventures with Ford Motor Company to 75%. Navistar increased its equity interest in Blue Diamond Parts to 75% from 49%, and increased its equity interest in Blue Diamond Truck from 51%. Edited December 1, 2011 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 How about it Avon Lake people? Any activity going on? The more I look at the sales figures, the more convinced I am that there has to be a class 8-call it baby eight if you want- but economy of scale says any investment has to include a lift from class 8. If you annualize 2011 9 mos sales stats, class 6 comes out to 42,500 units (Ford 6100 or 14.4%), class 7, 41,100 (Ford 3700 or 9%) and class 8 154,600 units. Granted I'm sure a major percentage of those class 8's are tandem OTR sleepers, but the vocational number has to be significant-and that is where ford needs to be a player once again. So again-any activity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted December 15, 2011 Share Posted December 15, 2011 I do not think there will be much activity at Avon Lake until they finish their design work. As E Series build tapers off once Transit buld begins, they can start to rearrange the plant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Legislation is in the works for 97K and 100K lb. trucks in order to save fuel. It's time for Ford to break out the Class 8's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Take a look at the last post by JPD80 on the "T series" thread. Yep, the more I look at that glass house, the more I can see a nice high seating position for great visibility , looking down on an angled hood that will be able to accommodate as large frontal area to support the cooling package a 10 or 13 liter diesel will need. And the more I read about Transit, the better I feel that the millions of miles it has accumulated in the rest of the world, will cut development time for a medium duty using Transit components significantly. How about it- I know we have some good photo "choppers" out there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I do not think there will be much activity at Avon Lake until they finish their design work. The design work is pretty much completed. Only validation, certification and sourcing are left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted December 23, 2011 Author Share Posted December 23, 2011 (edited) The design work is pretty much completed. Only validation, certification and sourcing are left. Interesting! The question now is will it be a full line of medium trucks up to 33,000# GVW, or is Ford going after specific medium duty market segments. Edited December 23, 2011 by 7Mary3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 The design work is pretty much completed. Only validation, certification and sourcing are left. Which therefore says all of the "in service" testing we are reading about is as you say "validation". If production is to begin with Model year '14, this would mean we are looking at about 16 months or so down the road? If that is the case you would think there would be plenty of evidence of things happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I can see Ford wanting to switch as soon as possible , transit's integral ladder frame will save millions... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Transit's integral ladder frame isn't applicable because the medium duty market doesn't deliver full bodies. It's a cab+chassis, cutaway cab+chassis, or just a chassis. Also the Transit's ladder frame isn't rated to medium duty capacity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) Transit's integral ladder frame isn't applicable because the medium duty market doesn't deliver full bodies. It's a cab+chassis, cutaway cab+chassis, or just a chassis. Also the Transit's ladder frame isn't rated to medium duty capacity. I can see your point with that and even though Transit is available with a cab Chassis, the strength of the frame is just not there. This is the point where FoE designs stop and US design/developed chassis comes in...a local design is probably a better fit. Know your customers needs and expectations. The following truck is too light for the expected load of MD, can it be upgraded or is a local design a better proposition for meeting customer needs? Edited December 24, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Local design is far better. That frame isn't even up to class 4 standards, let alone 5-7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Local design is far better. That frame isn't even up to class 4 standards, let alone 5-7. How do they get away with it? Are payloads a lot smaller? That frame sure looks like it would bend rather easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Local design is far better. That frame isn't even up to class 4 standards, let alone 5-7. Sorry, quick research shows Transit CC is class 1 and 2. I wonder what Ford is planning for MD, whether Aluminium frame is worth a look, maintaining load carrying with reduced weight... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Payloads are a *lot* smaller. I don't know how the medium duty segment shapes up in Europe as opposed to the US, but I do know that the Transit payload is not comparable to the E-Series. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Payloads are a *lot* smaller. I don't know how the medium duty segment shapes up in Europe as opposed to the US, but I do know that the Transit payload is not comparable to the E-Series. Transit as designed by FoE probably covers most of E 250 and E350 where gross vehicle mass maxes out at 10,000 lbs. E series, maximum payload: (E250 and E 350) 4.6 v8 3610 lbs 5.4 V8 3630 lbs 6.8 V8 4050 lbs I-5 Diesel Transit - 2050 Kg or 4500 lbs - it is clearly fits into class 2 but nowhere near MD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 IMO, I think a lot of you are using the term "Medium Duty" in a very broad sense. "Medium Duty" to me is class 6 and 7. That will be a totally different animal than anything in class 4 and 5. The "frame" pictured on those Transit chassis cabs, does look in a word "cheesy". However what is it made of? If its 50,000 PSI steel that is one thing. If its 80,000 or even 120,000 a totally different animal. In any case, I have to believe that the chassis we are looking at is not designed for installation of a separate body as in a dump truck or even a box truck application but rather as something that an aftermarket producer takes and adds structure that makes it an integral part of the total vehicle-as in mini bus. Just a thought. I do believe when you see a Transit set up for say a dump opr rack body, uyou will see a true ladder type frame. By the way- a frame may LOOK strong because its say deep or thick but the true measure of a trucks frame strength is RBM. that is the product of the PSI of the steel (or aluminum ugh!) used times the section modulus which is the mathematical formula of the frame depth, material thickness and flange width. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Transit as designed by FoE probably covers most of E 250 and E350 where gross vehicle mass maxes out at 10,000 lbs. E series, maximum payload: (E250 and E 350) 4.6 v8 3610 lbs 5.4 V8 3630 lbs 6.8 V8 4050 lbs I-5 Diesel Transit - 2050 Kg or 4500 lbs - it is clearly fits into class 2 but nowhere near MD You're only looking at wagon/van payload ratings. You're not looking at the GVWR/GCWR of the dual rear wheel cab/chassis, cutaway and chassis only models. Those, IIRC, get up to 20k on the E450. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) You're only looking at wagon/van payload ratings. You're not looking at the GVWR/GCWR of the dual rear wheel cab/chassis, cutaway and chassis only models. Those, IIRC, get up to 20k on the E450. Yes those heavier vehicles are impressive and I'm not disputing that Transit cannot match that as I did say only E250 and E350 I also understand that there is a lot more to durability than just payload numbers and that the Transit is light duty and cannot be expected to cover all bases...... For the record the biggest Transits in van and Cab Chassis with dual wheels has a Gross Combination Mass of 6,000Kg which equates to 13,200 lbs...which limits it to Class 3 and way short of E450 and E550 capabilities... I'm just wondering what Ford is up to with T250, T350, T450 and T550 - Obviously we are looking at two separate platforms to cover what customers need from E series products. It's that dividing line that I'm curious about, which vehicles cover what and why. Is there any idea how much volume there is in class 3 and up? Edited December 24, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Which therefore says all of the "in service" testing we are reading about is as you say "validation". If production is to begin with Model year '14, this would mean we are looking at about 16 months or so down the road? If that is the case you would think there would be plenty of evidence of things happening. I concur on all of the above. Definitely should see things happening at OHAP in '12. I will keep my eyes open for a <J1> date. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 (edited) You're only looking at wagon/van payload ratings. You're not looking at the GVWR/GCWR of the dual rear wheel cab/chassis, cutaway and chassis only models. Those, IIRC, get up to 20k on the E450. Which is why E350/450 is staying in production ! Also remember the V363N will be on the "new" Transit platform. All the numbers you guys keep throwing around are on the "current" platform. Who knows, maybe they'll throw a fully boxed chassis with hydro-formed cross members (a la F-Series) at it (although I doubt that) ? How long will E350/450 be in production, I don't know. I haven't seen the 2020MY product plans ! Lighten up Richard ! jpd80 - Any launch dates for the new Transit on your side of the pond ? At one time the EU launch was to be about 1 year in advance of the NA launch. Edited December 24, 2011 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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