Bob Rosadini Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Ah, no it isn't. Then again I should have checked a bit more carefully. The 'Mayflower' I was referring to was Mayflower Vehicle Systems, formerly known as Motor Panels, and today known as Commercial Vehicle Group: http://www.cvgrp.com/en-us/Pages/default.aspx Motor Panels goes way back, manufacturing cabs and other sheetmetal products for a number of different automotive companies. Probably best known for the Mack R series and many of the White cabs too. I think they were also building the 'Autocar' cab that Western Star used for so many years. 7m-thx- I did a search on Mayflower and the predominant names in the use made pewter or clothing! In any case I checked out CVG's web site- looks like they are also doing the CH/Granite. Pretty impressive company in terms of the range of products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 I brought this up because FWIW, I think the HN80 cab would be superior to any pickup-based cab for a class 6 or 7 truck. Even though the basic design is 17 years old. The cab was roomy, had good visibility, and a strong Ford 'family resemblance' to it. Remember that the HN80 program was to eventually replace the F Series mediums as well as the L series heavies. The Sterling Acterra was a close approximation of what the HN80 medium would have been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted April 16, 2012 Share Posted April 16, 2012 Ford could always bring over one of their existing "Cargo" cab designs from Europe and utilize that for Avon Lake mediums. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Share Posted June 7, 2012 My company has just taken delivery of what is likely to be our last 'Blue Diamond' F-650. We have a number of CNG Freightliner M2's on order. Didn't go with the CNG V-10 F-650, because the configurations are very restricted and we wouldn't get certain alternate fuel tax credits on them (not sure the specific reason on that, it might have to do with the Ford being considered a conversion, not OEM). Still no news on what is coming from Avon Lake. Dealer doesn't even know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 Also recognizing that good designs like the C series, R and B model Macks, Louisvilles had life spans of 30 years or so, do you think they would use a design that already had 17 years under its belt? The City of Pittsburgh still has Ford C Series trucks in its Public Works Fleet and there's a local produce supplier with an early '60s Mack B Model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 My company has just taken delivery of what is likely to be our last 'Blue Diamond' F-650. We have a number of CNG Freightliner M2's on order. Didn't go with the CNG V-10 F-650, because the configurations are very restricted ... I would expect that to change once the medium duties start to ship from Avon Lake. Still no news on what is coming from Avon Lake. Dealer doesn't even know. I would not expect units to ship from Avon Lake until late 2013CY or early 2014CY. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I would expect that to change once the medium duties start to ship from Avon Lake. I would not expect units to ship from Avon Lake until late 2013CY or early 2014CY. would you not think that there would be SOME evidence by now as to what is going on? I would think if they were to begin making class 7, baby 8's, there would be a need for significant changeds to the plant??? 7M3 says his dealer "knows nothing". Same here- I talked to a guy who probably sells as many 650/750's as anyone in Mass.-maybe New England-same story, clueless as to what is going on. This unfortunately says to me..."not much". In the meantime I have bought my second railroad stock. I see all these double stack railcars coming into New England with one container. The future will be intermodal for long hauls and a durable low cost regional day cab tractor will be a home run. I just hope the Ford planners see this coming down the track-no pun intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 19, 2012 Author Share Posted June 19, 2012 The option availability issues with the V-10 F-650 seem to be to keep you from hurting the drivetrain. GVW is restricted, no GCW, no P.T.O.'s, no air brakes, limited tire sizes (in turn limiting GVW). Probably won't matter to most buyers of this truck anyway (think municipality putting around town in a 3 yd. dump, rental box van, ect.). In other news, anyone want to bet who will end up with International? I got a feeling it will be a big surprise! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 The option availability issues with the V-10 F-650 seem to be to keep you from hurting the drivetrain. GVW is restricted, no GCW, no P.T.O.'s, no air brakes, limited tire sizes (in turn limiting GVW). Probably won't matter to most buyers of this truck anyway (think municipality putting around town in a 3 yd. dump, rental box van, ect.). In other news, anyone want to bet who will end up with International? I got a feeling it will be a big surprise! If Ford is serious about selling gassers in Class 6 and 7 they need something with a lot more power than the V10. Hmm ... I seem to recall that the 6.2L could go up to about 7.0L. My gut tells me a new head with 3 valves and only 1 plug would make more power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 If Ford is serious about selling gassers in Class 6 and 7 they need something with a lot more power than the V10. Hmm ... I seem to recall that the 6.2L could go up to about 7.0L. My gut tells me a new head with 3 valves and only 1 plug would make more power. Well if my memory is correct, didn't someone say that the tree service big guys (Asplundh, Bartlett, Lewis etc) had made an industry request for a gasser because they could not live with the regen issues associated with diesels and the fact that their trucks had more PTO time than anything. If so, no way would a light 650 serve their needs. At least I would not want to be 50ft. off the ground in a bucket attached to a light chassis. To say nothing of durabiity and long service life. PS guys-check out Supershowrigs.com. Go to ATHS National show in left col. Then click on images. Page 4, 5th row down, first truck on left is my B. Parked between a green R Model ("S & S") and a Dodge cab over-7m3-you likeMopars right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpvbs Posted June 19, 2012 Share Posted June 19, 2012 I was paging through the current Motortrend ina waiting room yesterday and read their review of an F650 with a dump box. It had the V10. They felt it was adequately powered. They also mentioned that it had a PTO as they are using the new 6 speed auto used with the 6.7 Powerstroke. I didn't take what they said to seriously though as it sounded like they had never drove a medium before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) 7Mary3, let me see if I know what you're suggesting. First, the US District Court is stopping the EPA from allowing Navistar to pay $2000 per engine penalty for selling non-compliant engines. Navistar's competitors are celebrating! Navistar's stock has plunged 11 percent! But this is an interim ruling and the final ruling may allow them to continue selling engines by paying the penalty, so as not to put Navistar employees out of work. Meanwhile VW has been watching Navistar and is ready to pounce because it's their only avenue to getting a foothold here in the US! The fact that the stock is down significantly may be the catalyst that makes VW jump in! How did I do 7Mary3? Edited June 20, 2012 by Joe771476 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I was paging through the current Motortrend ina waiting room yesterday and read their review of an F650 with a dump box. It had the V10. They felt it was adequately powered. They also mentioned that it had a PTO as they are using the new 6 speed auto used with the 6.7 Powerstroke. I didn't take what they said to seriously though as it sounded like they had never drove a medium before. I would say you hit the nail on the head...."golly-this IS a big truck" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 7Mary3, let me see if I know what you're suggesting. First, the US District Court is stopping the EPA from allowing Navistar to pay $2000 per engine penalty for selling non-compliant engines. Navistar's competitors are celebrating! Navistar's stock has plunged 11 percent! But this is an interim ruling and the final ruling may allow them to continue selling engines by paying the penalty, so as not to put Navistar employess out of work. Meanwhile VW has been watching Navistar and is ready to pounce because it's their only avenue to getting a foothold here in the US! The fact that the stock is down significantly may be the catalyst that makes VW jump in! How did I do 7Mary3? Not sure what 7M thinks but my two cents says you are correct that VW has had an interest. they have been pursuing their Euro stake so why not here. Another possibility is Fiat. Marchione has shown "interest". Whatever "interest" means but from my perspective, twom things make that realistic: One, Navistar is in trouble over engine issues. With the exception of Cummins, Paccar, Volvo/Mack and Freightliner have proprietary engines. Lets say the Navistar EGR issue proves to be their undoing. That leaves them at the mercy of Cummins. But what does Fiat bring to the table? IVECO! Two, Assuming the Iveco connection proved to be a good fit-at least from the engine perspective, what does Navistar do for Fiat's American arm? Gets Dodge/Ram back into commercial trucks in a big way. Food for thought-crazy as it msay be. Hah-there was a time when I thought a Ford takeover was a cinch-but that was when the Power Stroke volume represented a huge portion of Navistar's revenue. Then came Bluediamond. Hey-looking plausible! Then the ugly 6.0 fiasco-so much for that romance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Yeah Bob, we were hoping for a Ford takeover of Navistar. But if Ford did takeover Navistar, what would they do? Would they use all the facilities and technology and keep the International brand, or brand everything Ford, or come up with a 50/50 branding? Why did International end up being the only mfr. to use EGR emissions instead of SCR like the rest? Didn't they test it sufficiently so as to not end up with this fiasco? Personally I hate the SCR requirement of adding fluid all the time. EGR is less maintenance intense. By the way, both issues I mentioned in the above post appeared in articles recently in Transport Topics magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe771476 Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Yeah Bob, we were hoping for a Ford takeover of Navistar. But if Ford did takeover Navistar, what would they do? Would they use all the facilities and technology and keep the International brand, or brand everything Ford, or come up with a 50/50 branding? Why did International end up being the only mfr. to use EGR emissions instead of SCR like the rest? Didn't they test it sufficiently so as to not end up with this fiasco? Personally I hate the SCR requirement of adding fluid all the time. EGR is less maintenance intense. By the way, both issues I mentioned in the above post appeared in articles recently in Transport Topics magazine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Yeah Bob, we were hoping for a Ford takeover of Navistar. But if Ford did takeover Navistar, what would they do? Would they use all the facilities and technology and keep the International brand, or brand everything Ford, or come up with a 50/50 branding? Why did International end up being the only mfr. to use EGR emissions instead of SCR like the rest? Didn't they test it sufficiently so as to not end up with this fiasco? Personally I hate the SCR requirement of adding fluid all the time. EGR is less maintenance intense. By the way, both issues I mentioned in the above post appeared in articles recently in Transport Topics magazine. Joe, Agree with you on the EGR issue. When they went that route I thought.."boy-what do the other guys know that Navistar doesn't". I wonder if the VP's of engineering/product development that made that choice are still on the payroll. And of course that is not to say that SCR is NOT without a lot of issues. Love my old truck! I just hope they get the bugs worked out and survive-on their own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 Why did International end up being the only mfr. to use EGR emissions instead of SCR like the rest? ...............EGR is less maintenance intense.............. Allow me to interject! First off, let's remember CAT's (miserably) failed attempt at 'advanced' EGR, 'ACERT'. CAT was trying to reduce NOX emissions to the point they could ultimately get around the whole SCR thing. Didn't work. Took CAT right out of the highway market, didn't it? When we say the International ended up the only manufacturer to use EGR instaed of SCR, we also have to say the International is also the only manufacturer who's engines are NOT NOX compliant with EPA regulations. International has been allowed to sell engines using emissions credits earned in past years. The big problem for International right now is the credits are expiring and the engines are still not compliant. "EGR is less maintenance intense". No offense, but that statement is not at all true. In my experiences, the minor hassle and expense of refilling the urea tank once in awhile (just about makes it from one oil change to the next) is nothing compared to the constant driveability issues, breakdowns, and poor fuel economy the CAT ACERT and Navistar 'Advanced EGR' engines exhibit. Not to say SCR is trouble free, but I think the troubles are far less than what you see with ERG. You know that another problem for Navistar right now is that their warranty expenses have gone through the roof. Care to take a guess why? Consider this: EGR affects fuel economy, makes the engine run significantly hotter, tends to gum up the turbocharger, and causes increased engine wear. SCR does none of that. An EGR is usually still required on an SCR equipped engine, but it is much smaller and does not work nearly as often. SCR is an aftertreatment, it really has no effect on engine performance or economy. The diesel does not even know it's back there, so to speak. I will admit when I first heard about SCR, I thought CAT and International would do well if they could get around the requirement. But, as it turns out, SCR is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 ................PS guys-check out Supershowrigs.com. Go to ATHS National show in left col. Then click on images. Page 4, 5th row down, first truck on left is my B. Parked between a green R Model ("S & S") and a Dodge cab over-7m3-you likeMopars right? That is a nice 'B' you have there! I am an ATHS member as well, and I restore old trucks too. I have a 'classic', let's just say it's a 'Brand X' around here. I'll give you a hint: it has a very large V-6 gasoline engine in it! And I do like that Dodge LNT1000! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 That is a nice 'B' you have there! I am an ATHS member as well, and I restore old trucks too. I have a 'classic', let's just say it's a 'Brand X' around here. I'll give you a hint: it has a very large V-6 gasoline engine in it! And I do like that Dodge LNT1000! 7m-thx. Also good comments on SCR but is not the driveabilty/regen issue a major PITA? As for your 478, I figured you were a closet GM guy a long time ago! How about a couple of pix? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 That is a nice 'B' you have there! I am an ATHS member as well, and I restore old trucks too. I have a 'classic', let's just say it's a 'Brand X' around here. I'll give you a hint: it has a very large V-6 gasoline engine in it! And I do like that Dodge LNT1000! Is it a 351 GMC V6? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 7m-thx. Also good comments on SCR but is not the driveabilty/regen issue a major PITA? As for your 478, I figured you were a closet GM guy a long time ago! How about a couple of pix? Regen. issues are due to the DPF's (particulate filters). The DPF's control exhaust particulates, not NOx. NOx is controlled by either SCR or EGR. I have not heard of any driveablilty issues caused by SCR, but there has been instances of the sensors malfunctioning and the urea freezing in cold climates. However, the engines will de-rate if driven after the urea runs out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Share Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) .........As for your 478, I figured you were a closet GM guy a long time ago! How about a couple of pix? It's actually a 351 with 478 heads (sodium cooled exhaust valves, hard exhaust valve seats and rotaters) with a 500 cfm Holley 2bbl. and electronic ignition on it. Built it myself! The engine is in a '67 GMC pickup. I really liked those engines back in the day, and since Ford never offered the 534 Super Duty in a pickup.............. I took some pictures last time I had it at the So. Cal. ATHS show, I'll try to dig them up. I would like to get something bigger, but my driveway and garage can't handle it right now. Would like a '79 F-880 with a 475 S.D. if I could ever find one. Or a '67 GMC HM-7500 to go with my pickup! Edited June 21, 2012 by 7Mary3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 Well, you can stop dreaming about a Ford buy out of Navistar Navistar adopts poison pill as big investors circle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted June 21, 2012 Share Posted June 21, 2012 since Ford never offered the 534 Super Duty in a pickup.............. That was an amazingly strong V-8 for its time. When did Ford stop production of the 534? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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