Biker16 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 It is hard to believe that they can still make EEC-V modules since the CPU chip (8065) has been out of production for over 5 years ! I find it hard to believe they are still using the 5.4 and the 5 speed in the E-series too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 If the body is a simple box van or flatbed, the upfitter has little more to contend with than lights. However, some of the more involved vocational bodies with P.T.O.'s, ect., do require extensive integration with the powertrain/chassis electronic network. This is particularly true of fire and ambulance applications. So, yes, the upfitters often do care about engine and chassis management. AFAIK, you can't get an engine with a PTO in an E-series. BTW: CANBUS is a horrible protocol. You could not find a worse one, and SAE needs to get serious about replacing it before vehicle hacking becomes a major issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sevensecondsuv Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Btw, how does a PTO work on an auto trans? Obviously they do it but I've never used one with an auto. Seems like a clutch is an integral part of the system....? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 AFAIK, you can't get an engine with a PTO in an E-series. BTW: CANBUS is a horrible protocol. You could not find a worse one, and SAE needs to get serious about replacing it before vehicle hacking becomes a major issue. this is the first I've heard of a hacking problem with CANbus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 It will absolutely not be the last. Read up on the specs. The only security CANBUS provides is obscurity. Complex encryption is restricted by the abysmal network speeds (1Mb/s in optimal conditions), restricted packet size and inability to route traffic/address devices on the network. Given the widespread use of common sensors, the networking of hacker data sets will make additional hacks easier than the first. Once one hacker identifies the signatures of a TPS packet on a CANBUS network, that information can be embedded in a kit and used on any vehicle with the same TPS. -- How do you think that Chrysler hack worked? It sent fraudulent signals over the CANBUS network. Don't confuse the point of entry (the embedded cellular data connection) with the actual attack (spoofed CANBUS traffic). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biker16 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 It will absolutely not be the last. Read up on the specs. The only security CANBUS provides is obscurity. Complex encryption is restricted by the abysmal network speeds (1Mb/s in optimal conditions), restricted packet size and inability to route traffic/address devices on the network. Given the widespread use of common sensors, the networking of hacker data sets will make additional hacks easier than the first. Once one hacker identifies the signatures of a TPS packet on a CANBUS network, that information can be embedded in a kit and used on any vehicle with the same TPS. -- How do you think that Chrysler hack worked? It sent fraudulent signals over the CANBUS network. Don't confuse the point of entry (the embedded cellular data connection) with the actual attack (spoofed CANBUS traffic). couldn't you simply isolate the network from intrusion? Its scary becuase every ford product use CAN bus network protocol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 The E series should be fine until it's demise with EEC-V, it's not used in the more involved applications that would require the upfitter to concern himself with networking. I have not seen a new E series ambulance in years, and last time I did it was a basic squad, not one of the rolling hospitals currently in favor. Allison automatics have had P.T.O. capability for years. The P.T.O.'s used with automatics are different, they have a hydraulic clutch pack (very similar to they type of clutch used in an automatic transmission) in them and are shifted with a solenoid. Yes, looks like CANbus can be hacked! I think the decision to go with it was made back in the 90's (didn't Bosch push it?). Manufacturers really liked it as it cut back on the amount of wiring considerably. Remember this isn't the aerospace industry, these auto manufacturers move slow with technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) couldn't you simply isolate the network from intrusion? Its scary becuase every ford product use CAN bus network protocol. No. Your car's keyless entry system is tied to the CANBUS. If someone gets access to your vehicle, they can insert a device into the network by a process as simple as clipping a few wires. The only 'security' CANBUS provides is the difficulty of sorting packet traffic because, as mentioned, the packets are neither addressed nor routed, thus making it difficult to separate, say, engine RPM data from TPS data. However, that 'feature' can be defeated given enough time with a donor vehicle. Edited July 31, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Yes, looks like CANbus can be hacked! I think the decision to go with it was made back in the 90's (didn't Bosch push it?). Manufacturers really liked it as it cut back on the amount of wiring considerably. Remember this isn't the aerospace industry, these auto manufacturers move slow with technology. Bosch invented it--in the early 80s. And, yeah, as far as I can tell, its biggest advantage was that you could just hook up stuff serially as long as each device passed on network traffic that it didn't recognize/need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) .. Edited July 31, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwyman3 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 There are still some E-Series Ambulances being built. One local squad just purchased 2 E-Series gassers. Most around here have moved to either the F-Series and International TerraStar. Our squad went Freightshaker and hates them. Another went to the Chevy Express chassis and they seem happy with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 The Chevy Express does offer a 4500 series Duramax powered cutaway, but I think even that chassis is too light for some of these squads I see these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 The Chevy Express does offer a 4500 series Duramax powered cutaway, but I think even that chassis is too light for some of these squads I see these days. F-450 PS seems to rule in this neck of the woods. My small town expects delivery on 450/Horton in a few weeks-over 200 grand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hwyman3 Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Our Freightliner/Wheeled Coach twins two years ago was about $200k/each Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 I find it hard to believe they are still using the 5.4 and the 5 speed in the E-series too. Last product plans I saw (over 3 years ago) showed that the E350/450 would be exclusively 2V 6.8L V10 by now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 The E series should be fine until it's demise with EEC-V, ... Kind of hard to build EEC-V modules without 8065 chips ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 Remember the ongoing discussions here about the suitability of using Transit components to make a medium duty truck cab? Take a look at this: http://www.bigmacktrucks.com/index.php?/topic/41334-gaz-developing-ural-next-long-haul-prototype/ Looks like GAZ has made a heavy duty truck cab out of components from their GAZelle and GAZon van/light truck line. Those vehicles are similar to the Transit. I think the results speak for themselves. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. In all fairness, if this truck is true to the Ural name, it will be very durable if nothing else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 New article about Avon Lake production. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/ford-moves-commercial-truck-production-ohio-mexico-040449513--finance.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Yes, production is supposed to start today. Detroit Free Press article (I have tried to link it here, but I cannot for some reason) calls them Ford's large pickups. Cue to Bob R. - they seem to have a worse handle on mediums than Ford Fleet marketing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twintornados Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Yes, production is supposed to start today. Detroit Free Press article (I have tried to link it here, but I cannot for some reason) calls them Ford's large pickups. Cue to Bob R. - they seem to have a worse handle on mediums than Ford Fleet marketing. Detroit Free Press article PS: Please note that I did e-mail the author of the the Detroit Free Press article, and she corrected the piece about referring to it as a "pickup truck".... Edited August 12, 2015 by twintornados Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Yes, production is supposed to start today. Detroit Free Press article (I have tried to link it here, but I cannot for some reason) calls them Ford's large pickups. Cue to Bob R. - they seem to have a worse handle on mediums than Ford Fleet marketing. They are not alone in inaccurate reporting- another story told how the trucks had been built by Blue Diamond since 2000.-wrong-how about Ford at Cautillan-2000-2004- then Blue diamond 2004 on. Another article talks about it like its Ford's first venture into medium duty trucks in the US.! I always say, we quote stuff we read about in the papers like its gospel-"well I read it in the WSJ". then you read an article on a subject you have specific knowledge of and you say..."what are they talking about!" We will see what coverage the Journal gives this story tomorrow. In any case, glad production is finally up and running Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I think lfeg was also pointing out that the article called them 'pickups'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 Yep, Heard a TV report that Ford's new big pickups have a new tractor trailer option also. You would think medium trucks are about as deep and mysterious a subject as cosmology! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zipnzap Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 (edited) Remember the ongoing discussions here about the suitability of using Transit components to make a medium duty truck cab? Take a look at this: http://www.bigmacktrucks.com/index.php?/topic/41334-gaz-developing-ural-next-long-haul-prototype/ Looks like GAZ has made a heavy duty truck cab out of components from their GAZelle and GAZon van/light truck line. Those vehicles are similar to the Transit. I think the results speak for themselves. Just because you can do something does not mean you should. In all fairness, if this truck is true to the Ural name, it will be very durable if nothing else. But isn't the GAZon Next itself (which this is taking components from) literally a medium duty truck based on the (older) Transit cab? https://www.google.com/search?q=%22GAZon+next%22&rlz=1C1OPRA_enUS556US556&oq=%22GAZon+next%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.1274j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 The GAZon Next is not a light vehicle. Not sure, but are you aware of any issues that have popped up with the GAZon Next so far? EDIT: Not the Transit. I think that GAZon cab comes from the LCD Maxus van? Edited August 13, 2015 by zipnzap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 But isn't the GAZon Next itself (which this is taking components from) literally a medium duty truck based on the (older) Transit cab? https://www.google.com/search?q=%22GAZon+next%22&rlz=1C1OPRA_enUS556US556&oq=%22GAZon+next%22&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.1274j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 The GAZon Next is not a light vehicle. Not sure, but are you aware of any issues that have popped up with the GAZon Next so far? EDIT: Not the Transit. I think that GAZon cab comes from the LCD Maxus van? This tells me you actually never read anyone's post enough to comprehend what people are trying to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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