Ford Expedition & Navigator

[jpd80]

 

Now what was this thread about? Oh yeah... why is the Expedition and Navigator still using that old underpowered and gas guzzling 5.4 Triton when Ford has something so much better to bolt into them.

I can only imagine the sales boost expedition would get with new EB V6 and 5.0 V8, I wonder if Ford is still using up a stockpile of 5.4 V8s.

or is the 3v now part of 5.4 2v production for E-Series, if so that might be a clue....

[akirby]

Buick is doing fine and should finish the year with about 170,000+ sales and I would imagine most of those sales are a lot higher margin then Chevy sales. GMC will finish the year with about 370,000 sales and I would once again imagine that their profit margin exceeds Chevy truck and CUV sales. Although us Ford people might think it's dumb and all GM needs is Chevy and Cadillac it seems to be working for them. It might not be as streamlined and they do have to design and market another sales channel, but maybe they have done more research then we have. I mean maybe they know they would lose customers to other brands instead of just having them jump to Chevy or Cadillac.

 

I know how things worked for Mercury and most customers ended up in a Ford, but remember when GM cut Oldsmobile they lost a huge majority of those customers to other non-GM brands and that was when GM still had a lot of different brands taking up space between Chevy and Cadillac. I don't think Buick is a bad brand. Buick drivers seem to be pretty loyal to the brand and many of them would not jump down to a Chevy. I feel like Ford and Mercury were basically the same car rebadged and Mercury wasn't looked at as a premium brand. I can say for certain that most people consider Buick a more premium brand then Chevy.

 

Chevy is only down market because GM chose to put them there. If you converted the Buicks to Chevys then that would no longer be true. Look at what Ford did with the Taurus - no reason Chevy couldn't do that if GM wanted to.

 

You're thinking just like GM - trying to justify keeping the status quo instead of looking at all the options and making the tough decisions that nobody wants to make.

 

Lack of stable leadership with an eye to the long term future is really killing GM.

[PREMiERdrum]

Look at what Ford did with the Taurus - no reason Chevy couldn't do that if GM wanted to.

 

And there's plenty of evidence that they're doing just that with the new Impala, but no clear strategy yet as to how the platform-mate LaCrosse will be able to one-up the Chevy.For years they've been ragged on about the ancient (W)Impala... So they appear to trying for a very good Impala, without much thought going towards the implications of doing so on other products.

 

GM has consistently lacked a cohesive, long-term strategy when it comes to brands and segments.

 

For those of you who bitch about the Taurus and MKS, you'll have a field day with the new Impala / Lacrosse / XTS.

Edited December 27, 2011 by PREMiERdrum

[Kris Kolman]

I can only imagine the sales boost expedition would get with new EB V6 and 5.0 V8, I wonder if Ford is still using up a stockpile of 5.4 V8s.

or is the 3v now part of 5.4 2v production for E-Series, if so that might be a clue....

 

I think a major factor is that the 5.0L V8 and 3.7L V6 in the F150 are only a year old. It takes time to ramp up powertrain production lines, and Ford is minimizing the risk to the F150 availablity by delaying Expy introduction. I actually think the % of EB6 sales would be higher on the Expy than any other vehicle. Expy buyers are going to be more willing to pay the premium for the EB fuel effeceincy gains. While F150 drivers have a bit of old fasion wariness, and in automotive applications the EB6 is a performance upgrade (with less market penetration). With the Expy is primarily used a people hauler, and as such is a perfect vehicle for the EB technology. EB6's weakness in the F150 is that if used to tow and haul 50% of more of the time it is actually less effecient than the V8.

[jpd80]

Perhaps Ford were taken by surprise at how well F150 numbers rebounded and were simply not in a position to

provide sufficient engine capacity to permit Expedition moving onto EB V6 and 5.0 V8, - could it be that simple?

[2005Explorer]

Chevy is only down market because GM chose to put them there. If you converted the Buicks to Chevys then that would no longer be true. Look at what Ford did with the Taurus - no reason Chevy couldn't do that if GM wanted to.

 

You're thinking just like GM - trying to justify keeping the status quo instead of looking at all the options and making the tough decisions that nobody wants to make.

 

Lack of stable leadership with an eye to the long term future is really killing GM.

 

Well I would be highly surprised if GMC or Buick are cancelled anytime in the near future, but I guess we shall see. I am not a GM person, but I still give them credit when they have good products. Some of GM's new products are good products. Let's not pretend that everything Ford is touching today is absolute perfection and everything GM offers is utter junk.

 

I'd even argue that Buick is a more successful and respected brand then Lincoln is right now. Really both brands are basically doing the same thing, however trying to cater to different customers. Buick is giving Chevy's unique styling and features and selling them at a mid-luxury price. Lincoln is giving Ford's unique styling and features and trying to match full luxury brands. Even though one is trying to cater to mid-level customers and the other high end customers they are using the same approach.

 

Is that why Lincoln is failing right now? Just some points to ponder.

Edited December 27, 2011 by 2005Explorer

[jpd80]

Well I would be highly surprised if GMC or Buick are cancelled anytime in the near future, but I guess we shall see. I am not a GM person, but I still give them credit when they have good products. Some of GM's new products are good products. Let's not pretend that everything Ford is touching today is absolute perfection and everything GM offers is utter junk.

 

I'd even argue that Buick is a more successful and respected brand then Lincoln is right now. Really both brands are basically doing the same thing, however trying to cater to different customers. Buick is giving Chevy's unique styling and features and selling them at a mid-luxury price. Lincoln is giving Ford's unique styling and features and trying to match full luxury brands. Even though one is trying to cater to mid-level customers and the other high end customers they are using the same approach.

 

Is that why Lincoln is failing right now? Just some points to ponder.

Maybe it's also due to the fact that Buick sells its vehicles for roughly the same money as comparable mid to high series Fords?

[akirby]

Well I would be highly surprised if GMC or Buick are cancelled anytime in the near future, but I guess we shall see. I am not a GM person, but I still give them credit when they have good products. Some of GM's new products are good products. Let's not pretend that everything Ford is touching today is absolute perfection and everything GM offers is utter junk.

 

I'd even argue that Buick is a more successful and respected brand then Lincoln is right now. Really both brands are basically doing the same thing, however trying to cater to different customers. Buick is giving Chevy's unique styling and features and selling them at a mid-luxury price. Lincoln is giving Ford's unique styling and features and trying to match full luxury brands. Even though one is trying to cater to mid-level customers and the other high end customers they are using the same approach.

 

Is that why Lincoln is failing right now? Just some points to ponder.

 

Why are you comparing anything to what Lincoln is doing right now? What they're doing right now is not what they're planning to do at all. Apples and oranges.

 

And you can't compare Buick to Lincoln - at least not across the board. The Regal competes with the Fusion, not the MKZ.

 

And you are still totally misunderstanding what we're trying to say about GM. Nobody is saying the new products aren't decent - some are really nice. What we're saying is GM can make the very same nice products with 2 brands instead of 4 and be much more profitable and focused.

 

Ford sells almost as many vehicles as GM with half the employees and half the brands. That's really all you need to know.

[Kris Kolman]

Maybe it's also due to the fact that Buick sells its vehicles for roughly the same money as comparable mid to high series Fords?

 

For sure the higher sale price of Lincoln leaves much less margin for error. But I think a major factor is that Buick came out of GM's bankruptcy with the best sence of self than any of the GM brands. It has followed a very consistent path, and don't ever devalue how brand momentum and a consisent marketing/sales push can help. Compare this to Lincoln which hasn't has a consistent sense of self since Ford bought Jaguar way back in '89. And that continues today where we apparently have a new styling makeover only a couple years after the bow wave was introduced. Add to that the dealership makeover connected to the discontinuation of Mercury and Lincoln has not only ben rowing up hill, but not in beat. For Lincoln to succeed it needs to come out this reorganization liek a rowing crew (from design, to markering, to dealer experience). But as improtantly it needs to stay consitent to the path it sets out and not change with the winds.

[2005Explorer]

Maybe it's also due to the fact that Buick sells its vehicles for roughly the same money as comparable mid to high series Fords?

 

Well that is what I was basically saying. Buick is doing the same sorts of things to Chevys as Lincoln is doing to Fords, however Buick is only marketing itself as a mid-lux brand whereas Lincoln is trying to play ball with the best of the best. Now Lincoln offers more standard equipment compared to Buick, but I think it goes to show that true luxury buyers aren't being fooled by Lincoln's current offerings and I doubt the 2013 MKS or MKT will do any better at fooling them.

 

I mean we can be critical of GM for offering a Traverse and an Enclave, but really how is the Edge Limited/Sport versus the MKX any different? I'd argue that the MKX is more of an Edge rebadge then the Enclave a Traverse rebadge. Now I understand it is all supposed to be fixed with the next MKZ, but still Lincoln's will be uniquely styled Fords with more equipment. No different then what Buicks are compared to Chevys. Now Cadillac is doing something different and has its own platforms, etc. Maybe it's smart, maybe it's a waste of money, but GM seems to think that competing with European and Japanese luxury brands means something different then their Buick approach.

[2005Explorer]

The Regal competes with the Fusion, not the MKZ.

 

A friend of mine just got a new high level Regal and I'd say it's a lot closer in terms of luxury to the MKZ then the Fusion. I rode in it and the trim and features seemed a definite step up from the Fusion. Now don't get me wrong I love the Fusion and owned one, but the Regal at least the loaded one I rode in seemed pretty classy.

[akirby]

Well that is what I was basically saying. Buick is doing the same sorts of things to Chevys as Lincoln is doing to Fords, however Buick is only marketing itself as a mid-lux brand whereas Lincoln is trying to play ball with the best of the best. Now Lincoln offers more standard equipment compared to Buick, but I think it goes to show that true luxury buyers aren't being fooled by Lincoln's current offerings and I doubt the 2013 MKS or MKT will do any better at fooling them.

 

That wasn't the point at all. The point was that cheaper vehicles ALWAYS sell better than more expensive vehicles. The market starts to shrink when you get over $30K.

 

 

I mean we can be critical of GM for offering a Traverse and an Enclave, but really how is the Edge Limited/Sport versus the MKX any different? I'd argue that the MKX is more of an Edge rebadge then the Enclave a Traverse rebadge.

 

It's not just Traverse and Enclave - it's Traverse, Enclave and Acadia. And the Enclave should be a Caddy. The current MKX isn't any better but for the umpteenth time - the current Lincolns are not the future Lincolns.

 

 

Now I understand it is all supposed to be fixed with the next MKZ, but still Lincoln's will be uniquely styled Fords with more equipment.

 

Absolutely completely wrong. Again.

[2005Explorer]

Absolutely completely wrong. Again.

 

How is that absolutely completely wrong? Your telling me that the next MKZ is not going to be a Fusion in disguise with more equipment and features? Different greenhouse or not that is exactly what it is...

 

I thought you of all people would realize that the next Fusion and MKZ will be riding on the same exact platform. The sheet metal and features will be different. Underneath its still the same car.

[BORG]

I think people have a bad habit of comparing products but not customers. Buick and Ford customers are not the same for a variety of reasons, to say the Fusion competes with the Regal is misleading.

 

I for one think Buick and GMC are mistakes, but Buick and GMC do what Mercury and Lincoln did for Ford, attract customers that would not otherwise buy a Chevy. If GM can do it sustainably, go for it. Buick isn't going anywhere thanks to China, but I don't foresee longterm success in the US no matter how much growth they appear to have at the moment, especially if they align themselves with deathly Opel. Sadly, I feel the same way about Lincoln, which has an even more tenuous grasp on potential customers here or abroad. It's worth a shot though and at least they aren't gambling as dangerously as GM did with Olds and Saturn, which hopefully means the "Turnaround" won't end up killing Lincoln.

 

Regardless, Lincoln and Buick attract similar customers traditionally, and continue to do so...but ultimately those differences are settled thanks to the MSRP...the Buick is cheap...the Lincoln is not. Lincoln has a problem conveying the value of the brand to potential customers through design, I think this is one of their greatest challenges going forward and I'm hoping we see evidence of that with the MKZ because we definitely do not with the MKS or MKT. This is why people seem to think Buick and Lincoln are competitors, which is either insulting to Lincoln or complimentary to Buick, either way Lincoln is loosing out if Buick is in the conversation.

Edited December 27, 2011 by BORG

[Kris Kolman]

A friend of mine just got a new high level Regal and I'd say it's a lot closer in terms of luxury to the MKZ then the Fusion. I rode in it and the trim and features seemed a definite step up from the Fusion. Now don't get me wrong I love the Fusion and owned one, but the Regal at least the loaded one I rode in seemed pretty classy.

 

Just cheked and the Buick Regal is available at a much lower base equipment than the MKZ... The Regal package that seems to most equal the base MKZ is the Turbo Premium II Group. That Regal package starts at $31,145 compared to the base MKZ price of $33,380. By not selling a cheaper MKZ versions Lincoln is able to gain brand respectability such that the MKS and MKT (or MKExplorer) can be sold at much higher prices than the LaCrosse and Enclave.

 

One of the primary reasons why Ford could discontinue Mercury much easier than GM can discontinue Buick is the dealer network. GM has gone thru a signficant downsizing in the dealer network only recently. One had to stop someplace because in the last feew year we've seen GM kill Osmobile, Saturn, Hummer, and Saab (ok sold but it did die). This was the medicine required for the GM delaer network, but one can only do so much in one surgery. Chevy, Buick/GMC, and Cadillac gives GM a resonably compact dealer network.

[Fgts]

And there's plenty of evidence that they're doing just that with the new Impala, but no clear strategy yet as to how the platform-mate LaCrosse will be able to one-up the Chevy.For years they've been ragged on about the ancient (W)Impala... So they appear to trying for a very good Impala, without much thought going towards the implications of doing so on other products.

 

Be honest you or me don't know what the next Lacrosse will have over the new Impala, i can imagine a tt-3.0 with awd offered atleast over the Chevy.

 

GM has consistently lacked a cohesive, long-term strategy when it comes to brands and segments.

 

For those of you who bitch about the Taurus and MKS, you'll have a field day with the new Impala / Lacrosse / XTS.

 

Imo im not complaning about the MKS/Taurus themselfs, just some people here say sedans based off an old Volvo platform is the very best Ford can do and it's better then all competion, it's simply not true.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Fgts

[jpd80]

A friend of mine just got a new high level Regal and I'd say it's a lot closer in terms of luxury to the MKZ then the Fusion. I rode in it and the trim and features seemed a definite step up from the Fusion. Now don't get me wrong I love the Fusion and owned one, but the Regal at least the loaded one I rode in seemed pretty classy.

I found this interesting:

Fusion: $20K to $30K...approx 20,000 sales per month

Regal; $26K to $34K...approx 2,000 sales per month

MKZ: $34K to $40K....approx 2,000 sales per month

 

It looks like there is a huge sales drop off with mid sized luxury models when the price goes above $26K

So MKZ gets the same sales volume as Regal, and that in a nut shell is why Ford chose Lincoln over Mercury

[akirby]

Your telling me that the next MKZ is not going to be a Fusion in disguise with more equipment and features?

 

Yes, that's what I'm telling you. I have faith that you won't be able to tell that the Fusion and MKZ are even on the same platform. Even the drivetrains and suspensions will be different in addition to all of the visible bits. I wouldn't be surprised if the wheelbase is also different.

[Edstock]

Imo im not complaning about the MKS/Taurus themselfs, just some people here say sedans based off an old Volvo platform is the very best Ford can do and it's better then all competion, it's simply not true.

 

That's right,it's simply not true but as you know, some people here are idiots.

 

The "old Volvo platform" was a starting-point, back some 6-7 years ago. With CAD, there is nothing left of the "old Volvo platform" as it has been lengthened, widened, and changed in fundamental ways, like how the powertrain is mounted, and how new collision regulations are met, and how glass-roof tech is incorporated.

 

The current chassis is the "very best Ford can do" at the price-point at which the vehicle will sell, in the time they have to get it to market. Eventually, it too will be replaced, and the obtuse will still claim the replacement to be "based off an old Volvo platform".

 

 

 

 

 

[FordBuyer]

Yes, that's what I'm telling you. I have faith that you won't be able to tell that the Fusion and MKZ are even on the same platform. Even the drivetrains and suspensions will be different in addition to all of the visible bits. I wouldn't be surprised if the wheelbase is also different.

 

Personally, I don't see that much Fusion in the present MKZ. I'm just not an MKZ fan at all and don't feel the vehicle offers that much to be considered a $35,000-$40,000 luxury sedan. It wouldn't be on my buy list at all. There are so many vehicles in that price range that are IMO much better. Hopefully, the next MKZ will be something that will change that perception. From the little that has been revealed about the concept, I'm hopeful that it will be a real attention getter and have many Lincoln exclusives that justify its price. Arguably, the new MKZ will be the most important vehicle in Lincoln's portfolio simply because it's an entry level portal into the rest of what Lincoln offers.

 

Another most important Lincoln will be the new MKEscape as it will be entry level into Lincoln's CUV portfolio. Both will be Lincoln's sales leaders and introduction into the brand for budget loving luxury customers. Lincoln should be able to sell about 75,000 Lincoln's/year just off those two vehicles alone. Those two should certainly buy Lincoln some time to get the next generaton MKS right and other Lincoln's that will be doable as Ford gets financially stronger as the quarters pass by.

 

Instead of buying European auto companies as before, Ford's big project now for this decade is Lincoln. Again, I don't doubt Ford's capabilities once it puts all its efforts and money into something with such focus. Ford only has to worry about TWO divisions, NOT four or five like GM and Chrysler has to worry about. Ford IMO has a huge advantage over its domestic competition because of this.

 

Even Toyota started a third division in Scion and still had no idea years later of what to do with the low selling lineup. Just a distraction that makes the whole company weaker. I still have the feeling that the better Buick does, the weaker Chevy will get, its core and most important brand. When GM had almost 50% of the market, it could have a bunch of healthy divisions, but not with hardly more market share than Ford with only two divisions. No matter how well GMC/Buick do, it won't change its market share, only hurt its core division, Chevy. And if you figure as I do that Toyota and Honda will retool and come back in this market, and add in the Germans and resurgent Koreans, gaining significant market share in this highly competitive market will be next to impossible. However, I still believe that there are thousands of old Lincoln fans out there that would come back to that brand if there was something that moved them. With Lincoln now getting so much attention, I exect that to happen over time.

[akirby]

Personally, I don't see that much Fusion in the present MKZ.

 

The problem is the side profile because they share doors and roofline, just like the Edge and MKX. And the lack of unique drivetrains. All of that will be fixed going forward.

[Kris Kolman]

The problem is the side profile because they share doors and roofline, just like the Edge and MKX. And the lack of unique drivetrains. All of that will be fixed going forward.

 

Just a question... Has this been a problem for the Lexus ES or the Acura TL? They like the MKZ are badge jobs of their repective mass market midsized sedans. Changing doors, roofline, and glass is extremely expensive and I really have to wonder if it is worth it... Can't imagine that bieng a big sales factor, and takes away moner from a better interior or better marketing. And did I read a bespoke suspension for the MKZ... Talk about something that doesn't make a bit of sense to not utilize unchanged with shock/spring tuning. You should do something to increase sales, or sales price, and I don't see any of this making sense in terms of ROI.

[akirby]

Just a question... Has this been a problem for the Lexus ES or the Acura TL? They like the MKZ are badge jobs of their repective mass market midsized sedans. Changing doors, roofline, and glass is extremely expensive and I really have to wonder if it is worth it... Can't imagine that bieng a big sales factor, and takes away moner from a better interior or better marketing. And did I read a bespoke suspension for the MKZ... Talk about something that doesn't make a bit of sense to not utilize unchanged with shock/spring tuning. You should do something to increase sales, or sales price, and I don't see any of this making sense in terms of ROI.

 

I've been told the ES doesn't share any body panels with the Camry - although to me they're hard to tell apart. The TL is also unique from the U.S. Accord because it's based on the Japanese market Accord.

 

I don't think it's mandatory if you just want to sell volume mid luxury vehicles at modest prices, but I think you need bespoke designs if you want to compete at the higher luxury levels. Especially for Lincoln who doesn't have the luxury reputation of Lexus.

 

The bespoke suspension is just electronically controlled shocks and probably different springs - I don't think it's an entirely new expensive suspension. But either way I think it's money well spent since it will not only match or exceed the competition but it will further distinguish the Lincoln models from Ford models.

[papilgee4evaeva]

I've been told the ES doesn't share any body panels with the Camry - although to me they're hard to tell apart. The TSX is also unique from the U.S. Accord because it's based on the Japanese market Accord.

FTFY. Acura TL (originally Vigor) was the Honda Vigor/Inspire in Japan, but then TL became unique to the US and the JDM Inspire became what is now the NA Accord.

[akirby]

FTFY. Acura TL (originally Vigor) was the Honda Vigor/Inspire in Japan, but then TL became unique to the US and the JDM Inspire became what is now the NA Accord.

 

Doh! Not sure how I got those confused but the point remains that the TL is not a rebadged Accord.