jpd80 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Buyers overwhelmingly want F150, I doubt Ford would upset that product mix without very good cause to do so.. Shrinking F150 is no guarantee to increased sales, but it could imperil F150's high ATP. I'm sure that all Ford ever intended to do was a bottom end scoop up of whatever mid sized converts they could get... probably reaps about one third of the volume T6 Ranger would get but without the cost.. around 3,000/mth extra sales without doing a damned thing except stop old Ranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) At the moment in terms of nation wide dealer stock, there's around - 41,500 F150s - 15,480 F250 - 7,600 F350 - 283 F450. Buyers overwhelmingly want F150, I doubt Ford would upset that product mix without very good cause to do so.. Shrinking F150 is no guarantee to increased sales, but it could imperil F150's high ATP. I'm sure that all Ford ever intended to do was a bottom end scoop up of whatever mid sized converts they could get... Another way to look at those numbers is that buyers overwhelmingly want Ford's SMALLEST truck. Shrinking F-150 doesn't lose Ford any F-series sales because: 1. Buyers can upsize to F-250 2. More appeal to active lifestyle professionals who don't want an F-250 sized truck (current F-150) Edited January 25, 2012 by GTwannabe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) *Some* F-150 buyers buy for capability. *Most* F-150 buyers buy because they want a NICE truck. Shrink the F-150 and you lose a few "capability" sales, but those people can step up to F-250. Ford would gain buyers like me who won't buy the current F-150 due to its obnoxious size and bulk. But Ford would LOSE buyers that buy the F150 for it's capability in the half-ton market. How many people tow travel trailers with their F150, that Ford would lose the buyers because they don't want to step up to an F250 to be able to tow with their truck, or don't want the negatives of drving an even larger truck daily just to be able to tow? I can tell you, that's a bunch! I tow a fifth wheel and spend a lot of time in campgrounds, and of those towing with half-ton trucks, I would estimate 75% are using the F150. And quite a few people around here, especially those staying in state parks, don't have the huge trailers that need F250's to tow them. They have trailers that tow perfectly behind an F150...I was one of them before upgrading to a fifth wheel last summer. Ford knows this. You don't. That's why they build and sell cars and trucks and you don't. Edited January 25, 2012 by fordmantpw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Another way to look at those numbers is that buyers overwhelmingly want Ford's SMALLEST truck. People want F150 because of it's size, not in spite of it or because they actually want something smaller.... Edited January 25, 2012 by jpd80 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 But Ford would LOSE buyers that buy the F150 for it's capability in the half-ton market. How many people tow travel trailers with their F150, that Ford would lose the buyers because they don't want to step up to an F250 to be able to tow with their truck, or don't want the negatives of drving an even larger truck daily just to be able to tow? I can tell you, that's a bunch! I tow a fifth wheel and spend a lot of time in campgrounds, and of those towing with half-ton trucks, I would estimate 75% are using the F150. And quite a few people around here, especially those staying in state parks, don't have the huge trailers that need F250's to tow them. They have trailers that tow perfectly behind an F150...I was one of them before upgrading to a fifth wheel last summer. Ford knows this. You don't. That's why they build and sell cars and trucks and you don't. "But F-150 can tow 11,300lbs!" No, it can't. Or at least most of them can't. It only tows 11,300lbs if the following conditions are true: 1. It has Ecoboost 2. It has the Max Tow package with Class IV hitch A significant number of F-150's on the road either don't have a hitch, or they only have a Class III and are limited to 5000lbs. Downsizing to 8000 or 9000lb tow rating is not going to hurt sales, since most people don't order the max tow package. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 People want F150 because of it's size, not in spite of it or because they actually want something smaller.... Debatable. F-150 is currently the best pickup on the market in terms of interior quality, power, and fuel economy. It's never had to face competition from a smaller, more efficient mid-size that's "big enough" for the typical truck buyer who commutes every day and hauls/tows moderate loads on the weekends. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) "But F-150 can tow 11,300lbs!" No, it can't. Or at least most of them can't. It only tows 11,300lbs if the following conditions are true: 1. It has Ecoboost or 6.2L 2. It has the Max Tow package with Class IV hitch A significant number of F-150's on the road either don't have a hitch, or they only have a Class III and are limited to 5000lbs. Downsizing to 8000 or 9000lb tow rating is not going to hurt sales, since most people don't order the max tow package. True that most can't tow 11k, and true that most don't tow 11k. Hell, I bought an F250 to tow 9k ish because I don't think an F150 should be towing more than 7k. But many buyers see that rating, and think, "well, if it can tow 11k, then it can tow my 7k just fine and much better than the Chevy that can only tow 10k." If tow ratings didn't sell, they wouldn't be where they are today. Ask Ram how dropping the tow rating to 7k on their trucks in '10 (or whatever year it was) affected sales. It's never had to face competition from a smaller, more efficient mid-size that's "big enough" for the typical truck buyer who commutes every day and hauls/tows moderate loads on the weekends. Explain to us why it hasn't then! Edited January 25, 2012 by fordmantpw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Debatable. F-150 is currently the best pickup on the market in terms of interior quality, power, and fuel economy. It's never had to face competition from a smaller, more efficient mid-size that's "big enough" for the typical truck buyer who commutes every day and hauls/tows moderate loads on the weekends. It's entirely possible (even likely) that Ford is working on a smaller lighter version but that doesn't necessarily mean they need to get rid of the current F150 to do it. It would be a big gamble and your uneducated guess about how the market would respond is just that - an uneducated guess. Do you think Ford doesn't study this and all other options on a monthly basis - with a ton of facts and more educated opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) True that most can't tow 11k, and true that most don't tow 11k. Hell, I bought an F250 to tow 9k ish because I don't think an F150 should be towing more than 7k. But many buyers see that rating, and think, "well, if it can tow 11k, then it can tow my 7k just fine and much better than the Chevy that can only tow 10k." If tow ratings didn't sell, they wouldn't be where they are today. Ask Ram how dropping the tow rating to 7k on their trucks in '10 (or whatever year it was) affected sales. Explain to us why it hasn't then! 1. The 6.2L is only available in a tiny subset of F-150 (HD, Platinum, Raptor, etc). Since we're talking sales volume, I'm limiting consideration to the real volume sellers (XL, XLT, etc.) 2. There are currently no good mid-size trucks on the market. Tacoma is the "best" but it's still outdated, inefficient garbage. A good mid-size (new Colorado?) will siphon off F-150 sales from people who have been settling because they can't buy what they want. Edited January 25, 2012 by GTwannabe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 1. The 6.2L is only available in a tiny subset of F-150 (HD, Platinum, Raptor, etc). Since we're talking sales volume, I'm limiting consideration to the real volume sellers (XL, XLT, etc.) Pick and choose...I see. 2. There are currently no good mid-size trucks on the market. Tacoma is the "best" but it's still outdated, inefficient garbage. A good mid-size (new Colorado?) will siphon off F-150 sales from people who have been settling because they can't buy what they want. But you still have not explained why there are no good mid-size trucks on the market! Why haven't other manufacturers put the money into them to make a "good mid-size?" Why not? If that "good mid-size" truck is going to steal F150 sales, then why hasn't one been built? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 2. There are currently no good mid-size trucks on the market. Hmm. In the most competitive and relentlessly analyzed market on the planet, there are no good midsize trucks. That should tell you just about all you need to know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTwannabe Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Pick and choose...I see. But you still have not explained why there are no good mid-size trucks on the market! Why haven't other manufacturers put the money into them to make a "good mid-size?" Why not? If that "good mid-size" truck is going to steal F150 sales, then why hasn't one been built? 6.2L isn't even an option on most of the F-150 line. Again, new competitive mid-sizes are coming. Chevy is bringing the new Colorado stateside. Dodge is working on a new Dakota. If you want to stick your head in the sand and think F-150 sales numbers will remain rosy forever, go ahead. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 If you want to stick your head in the sand Look. We get it. For whatever reason, you think you know how the auto industry works better than Ford Motor, despite Ford Motor earning several billion dollars from that industry, while you've done what? Bought a truck a few years ago? Why don't you just give it a rest, huh? You're not going to convince any of us that you have a better grip on things than Ford, so stop trying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 6.2L isn't even an option on most of the F-150 line. Again, new competitive mid-sizes are coming. Chevy is bringing the new Colorado stateside. Dodge is working on a new Dakota. If you want to stick your head in the sand and think F-150 sales numbers will remain rosy forever, go ahead. What makes you think that Chevy and Dodge will produce competitive mid-sizes just because they are new? Was the old Colorado competitive when it was brand new? And you're also assuming that Ford is doing NOTHING to cater to those customers who want a smaller more fuel efficient truck and that's a terrible assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V8-X Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 F150 happens to be the size it is because customers want a truck that big and capable, why don't people get that? I'm an F150 owner and love the truck. But like MANY F150 owners (frequent many F150 and Ford truck forums), it has grown to proportions that people dislike. Many of the owners are loyal Ford truck buyers, and only opted for the F150 because 1) the Ranger was severely outdated and too small (no crewcab option stateside) and/or 2) the Explorer ST didn't offer the desired capability or adequate bed size. The T6 would be right up my alley if it was brought stateside. The only people who are upset about the F150 are the people who want a smaller truck. The problem is the people who like the current F150 outnumber the potential smaller truck buyers 6 to 1. Source? Nobody held a gun to 600K F150 buyers last year. Hmm, aren't F250, F350 & F450 also included in that $600K amount? And what option did Ford offer under the F150 that was anywhere near updated to contend with? The outgoing Rangers was hopelessly outdated and why so many bypassed it as an option. But you still have not explained why there are no good mid-size trucks on the market! Why haven't other manufacturers put the money into them to make a "good mid-size?" Why not? If that "good mid-size" truck is going to steal F150 sales, then why hasn't one been built? New Colorado coming. Same with the Dakota. Toyota is making different/modified versions of the Tacoma. Like Ford is doing, all other manufacturers went for big $ and put their updates toward their full-size trucks. What makes you think that Chevy and Dodge will produce competitive mid-sizes just because they are new? Was the old Colorado competitive when it was brand new? And you're also assuming that Ford is doing NOTHING to cater to those customers who want a smaller more fuel efficient truck and that's a terrible assumption. The Colorado/Canyon were selling over a 100K units their first few years, and nearly 100K in their 4th, and slowly declined afterwards as people found it to be no more updated than the outgoing Silverado, and very poor performance and economy for the I5, plus the reliability of it was very poor. So yes it did sell quite well when brand new. So making small/mid-size truck buyers to move to a TC, Fiesta or F150 is doing something for that demographic? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 The Colorado/Canyon were selling over a 100K units their first few years, and nearly 100K in their 4th, and slowly declined afterwards as people found it to be no more updated than the outgoing Silverado, and very poor performance and economy for the I5, plus the reliability of it was very poor. So yes it did sell quite well when brand new. Some numbers: So with no Investment, the Ranger/B-series STILL outsold the Colorado and Canyon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 People want F150 because of it's size, not in spite of it or because they actually want something smaller.... Link? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Link? Its pretty obvious by sales numbers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Link? Don't make me pull out the common sense link again....... Seriously - if you're going to argue about vehicle desirability you should probably pick one that ISN'T the best selling vehicle in the entire country for the last few decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Its pretty obvious by sales numbers.... Sales numbers tell you how many F-Series have been sold. Nothing more, nothing less. I want to see where it's been documented that people buy the F-150 because of it's size. Don't make me pull out the common sense link again....... Seriously - if you're going to argue about vehicle desirability you should probably pick one that ISN'T the best selling vehicle in the entire country for the last few decades. Who's arguing about desirability? And, yes, posting a link to Wikipedia will certainly get me good. I say go for it. That will show me. Edited January 25, 2012 by Boss444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Sales numbers tell you how many F-Series have been sold. Nothing more, nothing less. I want to see where it's been documented that people buy the F-150 because of it's size. Who's arguing about desirability? And, yes, posting a link to Wikipedia will certainly get me good. I say go for it. That will show me. And being D-bag on here proves what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) And being D-bag on here proves what? You tell me. Is this really what happens when someone is asked to support a claim? Wow. I didn't even say the guy was wrong...I just wanted to read where Ford has said that people buy the F-150 because of it's size. It's funny...I have to provide links proving my opinion...but when someone states as a fact that people buy the F-150 because of it's size...nothing. Edited January 25, 2012 by Boss444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 Sales numbers tell you how many F-Series have been sold. Nothing more, nothing less. I want to see where it's been documented that people buy the F-150 because of it's size. Who's arguing about desirability? And, yes, posting a link to Wikipedia will certainly get me good. I say go for it. That will show me. Because people buy vehicles that they desire and the do not buy vehicles that they do not desire. The fact that the current larger F series pickups are the best selling vehicle in the country (and has been for a few decades) suggests to any reasonable person that people want the current larger vehicle because they're buying it more than anything else. Where is your proof that people are not buying F150 because of its size? The full sized truck market is at least 1.5M - probably closer to 2M and the smaller truck market is lucky to hit 200K. And I don't care if the smaller trucks are "outdated" - if size is really that important then they would be buying more smaller trucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 New Colorado coming. Same with the Dakota. Toyota is making different/modified versions of the Tacoma. Like Ford is doing, all other manufacturers went for big $ and put their updates toward their full-size trucks. Yes, a new Colorado is coming, and I will believe the Dodge when I see it. But see, if the smaller truck market was so ripe for the picking, then there would be big $ in the small truck market as well, would there not? It would be an easy sell and you would sell every truck you made if so many people were clamoring for these smaller trucks. How can ALL automakers be so wrong while a few on this forum are so right? Why did Toyota bring out a brand new Tundra instead of just making the Tacoma the best small truck on the market? What about Nissan and the Titan/Frontier? You guys just don't see the logic. If it was such a huge market, everyone would be selling their first born to enter and build the best there is and run away with sales and $hitloads of money. But they aren't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boss444 Posted January 25, 2012 Share Posted January 25, 2012 (edited) Because people buy vehicles that they desire and the do not buy vehicles that they do not desire. The fact that the current larger F series pickups are the best selling vehicle in the country (and has been for a few decades) suggests to any reasonable person that people want the current larger vehicle because they're buying it more than anything else. That's a leap. I would say the sales crown is more dependent on the fact that Ford has MANY vehicles under the F-Series umbrella. Where is your proof that people are not buying F150 because of its size? Where did I make that assertion? And I don't care if the smaller trucks are "outdated" - if size is really that important then they would be buying more smaller trucks. That's baloney and you know it. You guys just don't see the logic. If it was such a huge market, everyone would be selling their first born to enter and build the best there is and run away with sales and $hitloads of money. But they aren't! Good thing Ford didn't use that logic when they introduced the Edge. Edited January 25, 2012 by Boss444 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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