Geneva Ford B-max

[akirby]

I hear you, but just about every Fusion SEL I4 sitting on lots around here and there are hundreds of them sticker for $28,000. And the SE's are all in $24,000 range. So if like most you want a new Fusion fast out of inventory, that will be sticker price you start dealing from minus incentives and how badly dealer wants vehicle off lot. Finding the cheapest Fusion in inventory is like finding a sub $30,000 F-150 on lot....impossible. Again, there is some wiggle room for more affordable vehicles like C of course and more B segment vehicles if not smaller. Entry level vehicles are still important segment for full line manufacturers. You know the Asian manufacturers are not going to give up on them and will expand the offerings, so the domestics better keep up. And like them, Ford has no intentions of building them on U.S. soil, so they can at least break even on them. I would imagine that if most B segment buyers get a few options, Ford makes a few bucks. You know dealers don't order them stripped for their inventory.

 

Nobody pays anywhere close to sticker for Fusions. You can get one for dealer invoice or just above without even trying.

[FordBuyer]

Yes - the Versa sells like gangbusters. It's also DIRT CHEAP which is why it sells so well. That's the only way to get big numbers in the B segment right now. If B cars offered significantly better fuel economy than C cars then that would be a selling point - but THEY DON'T.

 

How much money does Nissan make on a Versa? It can't be very much. And that's what's keeping Ford from investing in the segment more in the U.S. - there are many more vehicles to invest in with much higher profit margins. And as long as they have the vehicles in Europe they can easily bring them here if the market suddenly shifts.

 

But I see C vehicles, hybrids, PIHs and EVs taking off as gas prices rise, not B cars.

 

 

Sure, Fusion, Focus, and Escape are Ford's highest volume car based vehicles, but again there is still room for B and maybe smaller. And room for more than just one model. The competition like Hyundai/Kia know that and are expanding their offerings. You guys keep harping about fuel mileage, but footprint and price also matters. Again, Fiesta Mexican plant needs the work, and there is room in under $20,000 price slot plus smaller footprint. Ford is also about utilizing plant capacity to its fullest such as at MAP, LAP, CAP, and Hermosillo. Add Cautitlan to that list maybe. The Fiesta is now Ford's entry level vehicle and another model would be nice.

[akirby]

Sure, Fusion, Focus, and Escape are Ford's highest volume car based vehicles, but again there is still room for B and maybe smaller. And room for more than just one model. The competition like Hyundai/Kia know that and are expanding their offerings. You guys keep harping about fuel mileage, but footprint and price also matters. Again, Fiesta Mexican plant needs the work, and there is room in under $20,000 price slot plus smaller footprint. Ford is also about utilizing plant capacity to its fullest such as at MAP, LAP, CAP, and Hermosillo. Add Cautitlan to that list maybe. The Fiesta is now Ford's entry level vehicle and another model would be nice.

 

You can't outcheap the Versa or the Kias or Hyundais and even if you could there just isn't much profit in it. If Mexico needs product to balance out a shift then that might be enough incentive.

 

This isn't a case of "could Ford be in that market" - it's a case of where does it make the most sense for Ford to put it's LIMITED resources. Do you bring over more B cars or do you put that money into hybrids, PIHs and EVs? Sounds like the new F150 is a huge undertaking and will be a game changer and that's far more important to Ford's bottom line right now.

[FordBuyer]

You can't outcheap the Versa or the Kias or Hyundais and even if you could there just isn't much profit in it. If Mexico needs product to balance out a shift then that might be enough incentive.

 

This isn't a case of "could Ford be in that market" - it's a case of where does it make the most sense for Ford to put it's LIMITED resources. Do you bring over more B cars or do you put that money into hybrids, PIHs and EVs? Sounds like the new F150 is a huge undertaking and will be a game changer and that's far more important to Ford's bottom line right now.

 

You keep bringing up hybrids, EV's, and PIH's. The C Max will be very pricey and limited in sales because it will be only offered as PIH or hybrid. I doubt if Ford will make more than 20,000 of them for full year. Maybe 25,000. A B-Max will be much cheaper with 1.6L motor or EB 1.0 and fuel mileage will still be decent. With the high cost of battery, I doubt if Ford will make much money selling 25,000 C Max Energis and Hybrids with MAP labor rate plus other bennies. Sorry to think more as customer than shareholder which I am also. Maybe Ford can't meet U.S. safety standards with no B pillar, I don't know, but if it can, the no B pillar will be great selling point.

 

As for Ford having limited resources, Ford has been making money for 2.5 years now, and U.S. sales are accelerating with 2012 sales shaping up to be best in years. At what point does Ford start to get out of the austerity mode? 2013? 2014? Assuming the economic expansion continues. I'm not talking about spending money to spend money, but to not be so cautious to the point where you let opportunity slip through your fingers. Windows of opportunity usually close up quickly. At times, Ford can be overly cautious to a fault. You don't want to be last to the party all the time. Leftovers get old after awhile. Ford seems to be happy selling 2,000 TC's/month to fleets, why not 2,000 B Max's/month retail if not more if it catches on and add some overtime at Mexican plant.

[NickF1011]

I hear you, but just about every Fusion SEL I4 sitting on lots around here and there are hundreds of them sticker for $28,000. And the SE's are all in $24,000 range. So if like most you want a new Fusion fast out of inventory, that will be sticker price you start dealing from minus incentives and how badly dealer wants vehicle off lot. Finding the cheapest Fusion in inventory is like finding a sub $30,000 F-150 on lot....impossible. Again, there is some wiggle room for more affordable vehicles like C of course and more B segment vehicles if not smaller. Entry level vehicles are still important segment for full line manufacturers. You know the Asian manufacturers are not going to give up on them and will expand the offerings, so the domestics better keep up. And like them, Ford has no intentions of building them on U.S. soil, so they can at least break even on them. I would imagine that if most B segment buyers get a few options, Ford makes a few bucks. You know dealers don't order them stripped for their inventory.

 

The same percentage of people will be buying Fiestas out of inventory as well. Apples to apples. Not every Fiesta costs $16,000.

[akirby]

You keep bringing up hybrids, EV's, and PIH's. The C Max will be very pricey and limited in sales because it will be only offered as PIH or hybrid. I doubt if Ford will make more than 20,000 of them for full year. Maybe 25,000. A B-Max will be much cheaper with 1.6L motor or EB 1.0 and fuel mileage will still be decent. With the high cost of battery, I doubt if Ford will make much money selling 25,000 C Max Energis and Hybrids with MAP labor rate plus other bennies. Sorry to think more as customer than shareholder which I am also. Maybe Ford can't meet U.S. safety standards with no B pillar, I don't know, but if it can, the no B pillar will be great selling point.

 

As for Ford having limited resources, Ford has been making money for 2.5 years now, and U.S. sales are accelerating with 2012 sales shaping up to be best in years. At what point does Ford start to get out of the austerity mode? 2013? 2014? Assuming the economic expansion continues. I'm not talking about spending money to spend money, but to not be so cautious to the point where you let opportunity slip through your fingers. Windows of opportunity usually close up quickly. At times, Ford can be overly cautious to a fault. You don't want to be last to the party all the time. Leftovers get old after awhile. Ford seems to be happy selling 2,000 TC's/month to fleets, why not 2,000 B Max's/month retail if not more if it catches on and add some overtime at Mexican plant.

 

Ford has cut staffing levels the last few years. There are a limited number of employees and way more projects than they can work on at any given time. Ford spends a ton on R&D - way more than most and even during the 2008 crisis they never stopped investing in the future. But regardless of how much they're spending they still have finite resources and they have to pick and choose which projects get done and which don't make the cut.

 

Even though Ford is profitable, it only takes a few bad investments to change that. There is probably more profit in a new minivan but that's not on the table right now either because there are better ways for Ford to spend its money.

 

It's this simple folks - if Ford thought it was worth the investment and resources were available then they'd be bringing the B max and Ecosport and diesels here already. Either they don't believe it's profitable or they have better projects to invest in. And since that's based on internal information that we aren't privy to we can't really argue with it until we see the results of what they're currently working on such as the new F150.

 

Now if you would personally like to own one of these then that's a different issue, but then you can't say "Ford should" or "Ford needs to" do it.

[silvrsvt]

Yes - the Versa sells like gangbusters. It's also DIRT CHEAP which is why it sells so well. That's the only way to get big numbers in the B segment right now. If B cars offered significantly better fuel economy than C cars then that would be a selling point - but THEY DON'T.

 

 

The Versa is also a C class car in size that is sold as a B-class car and is heavily fleeted. In 2010, 41% of them where sold to fleets.

 

http://www.automotive-fleet.com/Statistics/StatsViewer.aspx?file=http://www.automotive-fleet.com/fc_resources/stats/AFFB11-24-car-reg.pdf&channel=

 

 

[Biker16]

How much do you really expect it to grow? Given that a B-car is aerodynamically challenged vs a C-sized car and you'll be lucky to see an increase of 2 MPG...are people willing going to downsize that much (giving up space/flexiblabity etc) just to save $156 bucks a year at $5 dollar a gallon gas?!

 

Heck I bet the 2013 Fusion 1.6L I4 Fusion will come close to the MPGs that Focus gets...

 

the issuen s areoynamics but also he is isue the technologies used in C-car are not being put in B-cars, example grille shutter, Direct injection, Eco boost. and there is more to MPG than Hwy MPGs, city MPG count too. this is where every B-car becuase of their lighter weight excels.

 

I really am getting tired of all this negativity on a these products.

 

i am making this bold for a reason...,. the B-max will offer more people and cargo space than a Focus and more cargo flexibility than a Fusion. watch the damn Video.

 

the buyer of a B-max which would sell for a 2000-3000 premium over th fiesta would sacrfice nothing over a comparable C -car in space and comfort. the C-max would actually have more head and leg room than a comparable C/D sedan, the buyer would loose nothing to buy this car. this is the advantage of an MPV type car

 

with the EB. 1.0 the B-max would Equal the Economy of the Focus EB 1.0 but I am betting that the 125hp would perform better in the B-Max.

 

The Kia Soul and Nissan Versa sell in the 10,000+/month range, and both offer good packaging. And it does look like $3.50 gas at the lowest is the new norm, new CAFE standards are still coming, and yes, B segment sales can only go one way, UP. How much is anyone's guess, but they will go up. I also believe companies like Ford will continue to tweak their pricing between segments so that B segment vehicles are clearly and significantlly the most affordable vehicles they offer. Furthermore, I would say it's inevitable that minis the size of KA will be coming ashore in the future also. I'm sure Ford is looking at the sales rate of the Fiat 500 and certainly will pay attention to Chevy Spark when it goes on sale. With 10,000 baby boomers retiring every day, you better believe the big auto companies are paying atttention to the new driving generation coming up and what they want and can afford.I would imagine affordability, fuel efficiency, and space efficiency are the most important. A B-Max without B pillar is certainly intriguing to say the least.

 

I agree an innovative product would bring more people into the segment.

 

 

They are both also nearly C-segment sized vehicles. They both also sell well because the more traditional C-segment vehicles for both of those brands are rather weak offerings.

 

the Soul is a B-sized Tall roof hatch back, AKA an B sized MPV, that maxes out at 36mpg hwy.

 

If Kia can do it why can't Ford?

[NickF1011]

the Soul is a B-sized Tall roof hatch back, AKA an B sized MPV, that maxes out at 36mpg hwy.

 

If Kia can do it why can't Ford?

 

Ford's standard B- and C-segment offerings (Fiesta and Focus) are more popular than Kia's (Rio and Forte). That's part of the reason it is more difficult. There may not be as much incentive to step into a B-sized MPV if the other similarly sized and priced vehicles are nice as well.

[silvrsvt]

the issuen s areoynamics but also he is isue the technologies used in C-car are not being put in B-cars, example grille shutter, Direct injection, Eco boost. and there is more to MPG than Hwy MPGs, city MPG count too. this is where every B-car becuase of their lighter weight excels.

 

Uh duh, maybe because the price point of this tech is going to drive up the costs of a B-car into C-car pricing?

 

It states that smaller cars do get better MPG's around town due to less weight, but can't you get it though your thick skull that going smaller comes with a whole host of trade-offs that most people don't want to make, esp if they are only saving 100-200 bucks a YEAR for gas?!?!

 

 

I really am getting tired of all this negativity on a these products.

 

 

maybe people are tired of you trying to convince them that they are a good idea for Ford to do?

[Biker16]

You are forgetting about price. Some buyers do pay attention to that. A 2013 Fusion will cost at least $10,000 more than Fiesta. I imagine a base B-Max would be under $20,000 while even now an SEL Fusion I4 stickers for around $28,000. The SE is up to around $24,000. As the Fusion moves up the price slot, there is room for slotting in B segment vehicles, and more than just the Fiesta. You just know other manufacturers are going to offer more than just one B segment model. And the Fiesta hatch lacks fold flat rear seats. I certainly knew that Focus would be a very high volume vehicle, but there is still room for more B segment vehicles.

 

this is happening on ford loat right the BUYER has 2 good Choices in small cars right now. The fiesta and focus, without the fiesta ford could not offer the Focus we have today. for buyer that balk at the price of a focus, They end up buying a fiesta, for buyer that think the fiesta is too small they buy a Focus, adding a B-max would add a third option, with the room a C-car the foot print of a B-car and the cargo flexibility of a CUV in one package, of course those buyers whom prefer a traditional type vehicle can still buy a Fiesta of a Focus, either way we have given the buyer another good reason not to leave our stores.

 

No duh...purely looking at MPG numbers vs costs of a car (avg cost of a car is what 26-28K a year) and the given point that CD sized cars are the best selling segment in North America...how much do you really think are going to downsize?

 

Say you can afford a 25K car...you can get a decent Fusion, a pretty nice Focus, or a really nice Fiesta for just under 20K..but you also have 2 children under the age of 7 and the assorted field gear needed for them that you need to stuff into the trunk....so what do you get? I'd say the Focus then the Fusion and the Fiesta is a distant third.

 

There is nothing wrong with offering more choices, but at the same time how many do you want to offer before it becomes unprofitible to offer them? You could offer a Fiesta, B-max and maybe an EcoSport in the market, but if they only sell 150K of them at less then 25K each in the US...is it really worth it? The Flex can (or seems like it can make money) at lower numbers because it starts at 30K and goes up to 50K...its harder to make money on a car that already costs close to 10K in raw materials and not figuring labor costs etc....

 

 

you have to understand the concept of our "top hat" strategy and one ford.

 

Top hat strategy allows for the for the cost effective development of new product to enter new segments, while retaining 60% part commonality with the base architecture. also it allows these products to run down the same line as the fiesta with minimal modifications to the plant. the economies of scale of all models on that architecture are share globally. these product would also push the B-car platform's volume above 2 million lowering the cost for all vehicles based on that architecture.

 

OneFord means that ford is think globally about volume and regionally about product, the B-max if it is built in Mexico, would be sold in Mexico, South America, and Canada, maybe even in Africa, while the volumes sold in the US may be low, ( i don't think as low as you think they will be) the volumes of product sold elsewhere make it viable. of course ford could source it from Romania and import it. too either way there are options to get it here and to do so profitably.

 

the Eco sport is already going to be produced in Brazil. Being that it is a Global B car it could be produced in mexico as well, ford could then export it to Europe, canada, and the US, and maybe even Africa. either way both products are incremental products that would increase the plant utilization and lower cost per unit, while being sold at much higher ASP than the fiesta.

 

Then again no one knows how profitable these will or will not be, but ford.

 

http://www.autoobserver.com/2011/02/one-ford-comes-in-focus.html

 

 

Yes - the Versa sells like gangbusters. It's also DIRT CHEAP which is why it sells so well. That's the only way to get big numbers in the B segment right now. If B cars offered significantly better fuel economy than C cars then that would be a selling point - but THEY DON'T.

 

How much money does Nissan make on a Versa? It can't be very much. And that's what's keeping Ford from investing in the segment more in the U.S. - there are many more vehicles to invest in with much higher profit margins. And as long as they have the vehicles in Europe they can easily bring them here if the market suddenly shifts.

 

But I see C vehicles, hybrids, PIHs and EVs taking off as gas prices rise, not B cars.

 

B-car sales have been increasing for years.

 

 

Nobody pays anywhere close to sticker for Fusions. You can get one for dealer invoice or just above without even trying.

 

how about the next fusion? did you notice the Focus outsold both the fusion and escape in February.

 

I think the Ecosport would be a very good product to slot underneath the new escape to protect it from being undercut on pricing like the fiesta does for the focus.

[Biker16]

Ford's standard B- and C-segment offerings (Fiesta and Focus) are more popular than Kia's (Rio and Forte). That's part of the reason it is more difficult. There may not be as much incentive to step into a B-sized MPV if the other similarly sized and priced vehicles are nice as well.

 

I think fear is not a good motivation for making product decisions.

 

should ford never make a coupe again because ford makes the mustang?

 

Overlap is a fact of life,

 

Uh duh, maybe because the price point of this tech is going to drive up the costs of a B-car into C-car pricing?

 

It states that smaller cars do get better MPG's around town due to less weight, but can't you get it though your thick skull that going smaller comes with a whole host of trade-offs that most people don't want to make, esp if they are only saving 100-200 bucks a YEAR for gas?!?!

 

this is true this is why ford sells the fiesta and the Focus, even if everything you said were, people are still buying the fiesta, and accepting the tradeoff. The enthusiasts voices are heard loud and clear here on BON, but simply because you DON'T understand why some people buy some cars does not mean that they do not exsist, or that they will not spend money on products like minivans that you deem, unattractive and boring. different motivation for different people.

 

 

maybe people are tired of you trying to convince them that they are a good idea for Ford to do?

 

listening to the flawed logic displayed by others here on what make a good product decision ford should abandon Europe, abandon Cars altogether except the mustang and the SHO, and only sell the F-series. the idea of doing something different is forgien to them.

 

I think it is time for change, I am not alone in my affection for these products.

[NickF1011]

I think fear is not a good motivation for making product decisions.

 

should ford never make a coupe again because ford makes the mustang?

 

Overlap is a fact of life,

 

Fear? More like rationality. If Ford does not feel that they will be able to bring significantly more buyers into the brand (and not just take established buyers away from Fiesta and Focus) then they aren't going to sell the product here. It's really that simple. Kia appealed to customers with the Soul that they were obviously not getting with the Rio and Forte. For them it is obvious that they made the right decision with that vehicle. However, Ford sells 40,000+ F-series pickups every month. Should Kia, then, introduce a fullsize pickup here? What works for one brand may not for another.

Edited March 6, 2012 by NickF1011

[silvrsvt]

this is true this is why ford sells the fiesta and the Focus, even if everything you said were, people are still buying the fiesta, and accepting the tradeoff.

 

Your misconstruing what I'm saying...I never said that Ford shouldn't offer a B-car....but the thing they have to careful about is offering products that may not be successful based on a B-car or even a C-based car....thus why they didn't offer the Grand C-max here etc etc...size is still important to car buyers and the shrinking of the market that your so hung up on might not happen for another 2-3 generations...

 

 

I think it is time for change, I am not alone in my affection for these products.

 

You think its time for a change, but you don't run Ford...and I think Ford has a better handle on the market then you do.

 

Don't take it so personally...you don't control Ford and no matter how much you vent on here your not going to change anything....

[timmm55]

I think this Ford owned patent would work even better...

 

That is really cool.

[akirby]

B-car sales have been increasing for years.

 

What a misleading chart. If you didn't pay attention you'd think subcompacts market share went from 6% to 18% but that's not the right side of the scale. The market went from 3.9% to 4.4% over the last 3 years. WOW - a whopping 0.5% increase in market share. Yep, that's a HOT segment.

 

I want Ford to make a bunch of smaller B segment vehicles and I'll come up with all sorts of statistics and rationalizations to make my case even if there is no good business case for it.

 

Good to see you're finally being honest about it.

[Biker16]

Your misconstruing what I'm saying...I never said that Ford shouldn't offer a B-car....but the thing they have to careful about is offering products that may not be successful based on a B-car or even a C-based car....thus why they didn't offer the Grand C-max here etc etc...size is still important to car buyers and the shrinking of the market that your so hung up on might not happen for another 2-3 generations...

 

I think your assumption are wrong, but you are selling out of your own pocketbook, and you don't understand how people can ting or behave differently than you do.

 

I don't care for mustang I would not touch the goddamn thing, but this does not means I completely disregard the fact that some people may want to buy the car, that no amount of complaining about the IRS of it's thirsty V8 engine or even its rough as fuck ride, will convince people not to buy it. no matter how valid my objections are, peoples motivations are sometime less than clear and less than logical, or sometimes practical.

 

to clarifiy I am Fan of fords mainstream cars, they have never been better IMO, but I see opportunities in low volume cars that are innovative and inspiring, like small MPVs and CUVs.

 

You think its time for a change, but you don't run Ford...and I think Ford has a better handle on the market then you do.

 

Don't take it so personally...you don't control Ford and no matter how much you vent on here your not going to change anything....

 

Ford has a great handle on the market these days, under stand my goal is not to ridicule or insult ford, but primarily to inform people about the products ford could sell here.

 

It does not help me when people come out of the woodwork to say what will not work, all business plans must start determining the market that could be sold to, the lack of imagination, I want to find out how many here would buy X vehicles and use their interest to open the eyes of other to the possibility that there is a market for this product. but if they have never seen it how can anyone like it.

 

How to market this product profitably is not as difficult as you make it out to be,if It meet basic US crash standards, this is a new company, they can be more flexible.

 

I rememebr your silver SVT focus, I have been here a long time. I know this is not personal.

[630land]

The Chevy Sonic is selling well due to pricing, too. There is still a market for the cheapest new car.

 

Also, while one can get a '12 Fusion cheap now, the 2013 Fusion sure isn't going to be sold with huge discounts, if it has to, Ford is in trouble!

Edited March 6, 2012 by 630land

[silvrsvt]

I think your assumption are wrong, but you are selling out of your own pocketbook, and you don't understand how people can ting or behave differently than you do.

 

I don't care for mustang I would not touch the goddamn thing, but this does not means I completely disregard the fact that some people may want to buy the car, that no amount of complaining about the IRS of it's thirsty V8 engine or even its rough as fuck ride, will convince people not to buy it. no matter how valid my objections are, peoples motivations are sometime less than clear and less than logical, or sometimes practical.

 

So you mock me then attack the product I drive? WTF? I haven't once attacked you personally....just your "facts" that your using to justify products that YOU want

 

I see opportunities in low volume cars that are innovative and inspiring, like small MPVs and CUVs.

 

See above....for the most part, people don't aspire to drive a Fiesta or small MPV....they are more or less throw away cars in most peoples eyes...

 

How to market this product profitably is not as difficult as you make it out to be,if It meet basic US crash standards, this is a new company, they can be more flexible.

 

Ford is more flexible, but they have baked in price points they have to meet for raw materials, Labor costs etc....most of what your suggesting is Pie in the sky thinking...like importing vehicles from Brazil that don't even have a Free Trade agreement with the USA. Making a profit on a B-sized product is pretty tough without all these extra hoops to jump through.

 

I rememebr your silver SVT focus, I have been here a long time. I know this is not personal.

 

So what? It was POS...it happens. I've had other small Ford products in my life...I loved my Escort GT I had...

 

At least I don't lurk on here and post on every Focus powershift related posts like some other member on here....

[Biker16]

So you mock me then attack the product I drive? WTF? I haven't once attacked you personally....just your "facts" that your using to justify products that YOU want

 

I am not mocking you, I am making a point.

 

 

See above....for the most part, people don't aspire to drive a Fiesta or small MPV....they are more or less throw away cars in most peoples eyes...

 

most people don't aspire to drive a Ford. so we should stop making fords? As long as people want to buy our products as a prices that allows ford to make a profit, we should be less concerned about their aspiration. My dream car is a lotus Elise, I have 0 aspiration to buy a mustang or an F150 for that matter, but I am not making absolutist statements about how X car is not aspirational, and that no one wants to buy a small car. that is not me, that is you.

 

 

 

Ford is more flexible, but they have baked in price points they have to meet for raw materials, Labor costs etc....most of what your suggesting is Pie in the sky thinking...like importing vehicles from Brazil that don't even have a Free Trade agreement with the USA. Making a profit on a B-sized product is pretty tough without all these extra hoops to jump through.

 

all of these numbers you nor I have access to, so how can you answer the question of profitability of a product without knowing these number.

 

Ford about 8 years ago was going to import the Eco sport from Brazil ford Exports the Edge from canada to Brazil.

 

DO you know what the tariffs are on cars imported from Brazil?

 

So what? It was POS...it happens. I've had other small Ford products in my life...I loved my Escort GT I had...

 

At least I don't lurk on here and post on every Focus powershift related posts like some other member on here....

 

Again, I am not attacking you. I have been here for long time, that was my point.

 

You understand the difference between the ST, and the SVT from a product development and manufacturing point of view is night and day.

 

the ST is a Trim level of the Focus, the SVT in complexity is akin to a different Top Hat, they built a sub line to just to make the SVT work, with the ST is literally will be built exactly the same way as any other Focus, this is how far ford's manufacturing has come.

[Biker16]

What a misleading chart. If you didn't pay attention you'd think subcompacts market share went from 6% to 18% but that's not the right side of the scale. The market went from 3.9% to 4.4% over the last 3 years. WOW - a whopping 0.5% increase in market share. Yep, that's a HOT segment.

 

you sound so desperate to prove you point. that you shrunk the Time line to make your point.

 

 

yeah an increase from 1.6- 4.5% market share in 10 years., Is nothing to sneeze at, never mind that the Margins and ASP in that segment have never been higher than they are now.

 

Ford sold 70,000 fiestas last year, at a profit.

 

1% market share in this market 120,000 units, in 12 million per year market or 170,000 per year in a 17 million unit market.

 

Small Cars as whole are a growing segment, I feel the B-amx would be a strong entrant in that market.

 

I want Ford to make a bunch of smaller B segment vehicles and I'll come up with all sorts of statistics and rationalizations to make my case even if there is no good business case for it.

 

Good to see you're finally being honest about it.

 

when did I say this?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Biker16

[akirby]

There was a big jump in 2008 when gas prices first rose to $4/gallon. Since then it's only gone up 0.5% over the last 3 years. If you're looking for a trend then the last 3 years are extremely important and what happened before that is almost irrelevant (to the future).

 

I also took the liberty of paraphrasing your quote so it was more precise and to the point of what you were really trying to say. I think that summed it up nicely!

[FordBuyer]

There was a big jump in 2008 when gas prices first rose to $4/gallon. Since then it's only gone up 0.5% over the last 3 years. If you're looking for a trend then the last 3 years are extremely important and what happened before that is almost irrelevant (to the future).

 

I also took the liberty of paraphrasing your quote so it was more precise and to the point of what you were really trying to say. I think that summed it up nicely!

 

Humans are very adaptable creatures. First gas went up to $1.00 and after awhile we saw that as cheap even though in 1968 you could buy gas for around 22 cents/gallon. Then it went up to $2.00 and we saw $1.60/gallon as dirt cheap. Then it hit $3.00 and we thought the end of world was near and now only to see $2.00 gas again. Now $4.00 is the big deal and $3.50 is seen as cheap gas. Oil companies are good at inching it up and getting us used to ever higher prices. They know that they will kill the golden goose if they push too fast too long, so they condition us to higher prices, go back down a bit, and then hit even higher numbers only to go back a bit again. Over time they do very good job of conditioning us and getting us ready for when it costs average vehicle owner $100 to fill tank. Europe has gotten used to $9/gallon gas, so we have a ways to go yet. It will probably take another decade to get anywhere close to that number, but again they are good at conditioning us over time to ever higher numbers.

[Noah Harbinger]

What a misleading chart. If you didn't pay attention you'd think subcompacts market share went from 6% to 18% but that's not the right side of the scale. The market went from 3.9% to 4.4% over the last 3 years. WOW - a whopping 0.5% increase in market share. Yep, that's a HOT segment.

 

 

I hate when people do that. I follow the blog Junk Charts - the type of person who notices mismatched axes might enjoy it... (Although they do start both axes at zero, which is better than MOST bad charts out there).

Edited March 7, 2012 by Noah Harbinger

[Biker16]

There was a big jump in 2008 when gas prices first rose to $4/gallon. Since then it's only gone up 0.5% over the last 3 years. If you're looking for a trend then the last 3 years are extremely important and what happened before that is almost irrelevant (to the future).

 

In your opinion.

 

Do you believe that Ford could not find at least 30,000 buyers per year for the B-max?

 

I also took the liberty of paraphrasing your quote so it was more precise and to the point of what you were really trying to say. I think that summed it up nicely!

 

I really don't need your help, I said what I wanted to say.