Lincoln Product Plan: Hits, no Halo Vehicles

[BORG]

Good. Lincoln needs to focus on making cars that ordinary people like me can conceivably afford. Lincoln is not Cadillac, one who can shamelessly pander to a crowd that is unwilling to give them a chance, instead of making their own mark in the industry. Go Ford!

 

Lincoln is not getting more affordable, on the contrary. Caddy is more affordable than Lincoln. Go price up an SRX and MKX and you'll see the big differences. It's one of the reasons Caddy sells in higher volume, which people seem to forget.

 

Caddy does scale higher than Lincoln at full tilt, but even that is going away now. The MKZ is a significantly more expensive vehicle now, leaving allot of room beneath it. Which they clearly aim to answer with their Focus and Escape variants. I hate to know just how much more the MKX will go up in the next redesign if the MKZ is now just as expensive as the current MKX.

Edited August 14, 2012 by BORG

[RichardJensen]

SRX ~ Equinox, MKX ~ Edge.

 

That's a big reason for the price difference. The vehicles don't match up in the same niche.

[BORG]

SRX ~ Equinox, MKX ~ Edge.

 

That's a big reason for the price difference. The vehicles don't match up in the same niche.

 

But there is a $4K price difference between each base model for vehicles very similar in overall packaging.

 

I could also point out that the SRX is fully differentiated from it's plebeian stablemate, the MKX (as much as I love it) is really just a Ford Edge Sport with a different nose. The margins for Lincoln on that vehicle have to be really healthy considering how little was needed to finance that product's differentiation.

Edited August 14, 2012 by BORG

[RichardJensen]

But there is a $4K price difference between each base model for vehicles very similar in overall packaging.

The Equinox is about as much like the Edge as it is like the Escape. SRX, similarly, is halfway between the MKX & the upcoming MK-?

[jpd80]

But there is a $4K price difference between each base model for vehicles very similar in overall packaging.

 

I could also point out that the SRX is fully differentiated from it's plebeian stablemate, the MKX (as much as I love it) is really just a Ford Edge Sport with a different nose. The margins for Lincoln on that vehicle have to be really healthy considering how little was needed to finance that product's differentiation.

and it's also the second fly over the target after the Sigma based RWD SRX failed abysmally.

At least the current SRX doesn't have an engine that grenades anymore..

Edited August 14, 2012 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

Lincoln dropping the Expedition based Navigator would make sense as it doesn't sell in very high numbers anyway

 

I'm sure the hideous styling, outdated interior appointments, unrefined & inefficient powertrain, and overall lack of recent updates has nothing to do with that. There was a time when the Navigator sold quite well.

Edited August 14, 2012 by NickF1011

[NLPRacing]

Not saying they have to price it that high. I was going off the point you made that a fully-loaded Expy EL can top $50K. What I was getting that is that the top end of the Expy (about $57K, fully loaded EL King Ranch 4x4) doesn't automatically mean that there's no room for a Nav.

 

If it's not going to be priced that high and Ford can sell $57K Expeditions, than what's the point of the Navigator. The Mark LT went away in favor of an F150 Platinum. It may be time for an Expedition based Navigator to go away in favor of an Expedition Platinum. If later on, Ford wants to develop an all new "Land Cruiser" like vehicle and sell it as a Lincoln Navigator for LX570/Range Rover type money, I say more power to them. Almost makes you wonder if Ford could justify development a "world" true off road capable SUV 4x4 like a Range Rover, Land Cruiser or Nissan Patrol. I bet a Lincoln version would sell like hotcakes in the Middle East. :P

 

Until then, I think an Explorer based Lincoln (be it an Aviator or Navigator) just makes much more sense for now.

 

I'm sure the hideous styling, outdated interior appointments, unrefined & inefficient powertrain, and overall lack of recent updates has nothing to do with that. There was a time when the Navigator sold quite well.

 

You're right, the hideous styling, outdated interior appointments, unrefined & inefficient powertrain, and overall lack of recent updates are major contributing factors to the Navigator's slowing sales. When the Navigator first came out, it looked very different than the Expedition and the update in 2002 was a step in the right direction. Had they continued in that direction, maybe the abomination that we got in 2007 would have been different. But we all know Ford was in no position to dump a lot of money into a proper Navigator update back in the early 2000's. Now we have the Expedition going back to its roots becoming basically an F150 wagon and because of that, it may be time to let the Navigator either go on hiatus for a while or become something "all new" for Lincoln.

[PREMiERdrum]

I'm sure the hideous styling, outdated interior appointments, unrefined & inefficient powertrain, and overall lack of recent updates has nothing to do with that.

 

I agree with all of your points save for the "outdated interior appointments." Square gauges aside, the interior of Navigator doesn't have any appreciable disadvantage to Escalade IMHO.

[aneekr]

...the Sigma based RWD SRX failed abysmally.

 

How so? The first generation SRX generally did well in reviews (Car and Driver bestowed '5 Best Trucks' honors for the vehicle's initial three model years) and consistently sold between 20k and 30k units in the U.S. throughout its production run except for 2008 when its stablemate allocated to the same assembly plant in Lansing, Michigan- the second generation CTS- was introduced.

 

I don't particularly like the class of vehicles the SRX occupies (I do appreciate the fact the first gen was rear wheel drive based), but "failed abysmally" seems a rather strong phrase.

[BORG]

Remember, nothing with RWD is a failure on the internet. And to suggest that the RWD SRX that preceded the FWD SRX is worse than it's successor is the highest form of blasphemy and must not be tolerated under any circumstances so that he RWD Gods won't be offended.

[silvrsvt]

How so? The first generation SRX generally did well in reviews (Car and Driver bestowed '5 Best Trucks' honors for the vehicle's initial three model years) and consistently sold between 20k and 30k units in the U.S. throughout its production run except for 2008 when its stablemate allocated to the same assembly plant in Lansing, Michigan- the second generation CTS- was introduced.

 

 

There must have been something seriously wrong with it, even for GM to redo it....and the new SRX is much better success story, at least in the sales numbers game...they are selling 50K plus a year since it moved to the Equinox platform.

 

In relation, the MKX sells about 20K units a year, but its also a much expensive vehicle and larger to boot...

 

I don't get GM's size of its CUV's vs the rest of the Market...the Lamabas are a half size larger then most full size CUV's and their Mid-sized ones are a half size too small...

[NickF1011]

I agree with all of your points save for the "outdated interior appointments." Square gauges aside, the interior of Navigator doesn't have any appreciable disadvantage to Escalade IMHO.

 

That's not saying a whole lot. The Navigator interior is already trumped by the rest of the current Lincoln lineup, let alone what the 2013 MKZ is bringing to the table.

[NickF1011]

Now we have the Expedition going back to its roots becoming basically an F150 wagon

 

That hasn't been confirmed. And really, what does that really mean? It's not like the F-150 is a completely unrefined horrible starting point. So it'll get a stick axle out back. Oh noes! It would still benefit from getting modern powertrains, new interiors and technology, and all the other benefits the F-150 brings to the table over the current Expy/Navi.

 

Point being, a future F-150-based Navigator would still be heads and tails better than the current Navigator.

[papilgee4evaeva]

There must have been something seriously wrong with it, even for GM to redo it....and the new SRX is much better success story, at least in the sales numbers game...they are selling 50K plus a year since it moved to the Equinox platform.

 

In relation, the MKX sells about 20K units a year, but its also a much expensive vehicle and larger to boot...

 

I don't get GM's size of its CUV's vs the rest of the Market...the Lamabas are a half size larger then most full size CUV's and their Mid-sized ones are a half size too small...

 

They pretty much left the entire Sigma I platform out to dry once they moved CTS to Sigma II. The SRX was the first casualty, while the STS died slowly and agonizingly. (Hyperbole, but you get my point). The current SRX is actually built off the same platform as the Saab 9-4X, called Theta Premium or Theta-Epsilon.

 

You're right, though... GM's CUVs are all tweeners. And their forthcoming Buick Encore is supposed to be smaller than most other offerings.

[30 OTT 6]

I'm sure the hideous styling, outdated interior appointments, unrefined & inefficient powertrain, and overall lack of recent updates has nothing to do with that. There was a time when the Navigator sold quite well.

 

Sounds like what happened to a certain kitty-cat platform.

[PREMiERdrum]

They pretty much left the entire Sigma I platform out to dry once they moved CTS to Sigma II. The SRX was the first casualty, while the STS died slowly and agonizingly. (Hyperbole, but you get my point). The current SRX is actually built off the same platform as the Saab 9-4X, called Theta Premium or Theta-Epsilon.

 

You're right, though... GM's CUVs are all tweeners. And their forthcoming Buick Encore is supposed to be smaller than most other offerings.

 

Hell, the Buick Encore will be among the smallest crossovers on our roads, period.

[SoonerLS]

If it's not going to be priced that high and Ford can sell $57K Expeditions, than what's the point of the Navigator.

If Ford can sell $47K Taurii, what's the point of the MKS? There are things other than price that separate a Lincoln from a Ford, like a longer bumper-to-bumper warranty, better sound deadening, a better service experience (at least, Ford's trying to make that last one happen), and so forth. Personally, if I'm going to pay Lincoln money, I want the Lincoln "experience" that goes with it...

The Mark LT went away in favor of an F150 Platinum.

The only reason for the Mark LT was to keep Lincoln alive long enough to start a rebuilding process, and to do it with as small a cash outlay as possible. Once it had served that purpose, there was no reason to keep it around, so it rode off into the sunset.

Edited August 14, 2012 by SoonerLS

[RichardJensen]

The dealers wanted the Mark LT pretty badly, and at that time, Ford hadn't adopted the "These jobs are going boys, and they ain't coming back" mindset necessary to survive the downturn.

[aneekr]

Remember, nothing with RWD is a failure on the internet.

 

This particular list of "worst cars ever" on the Internet suggests otherwise.

[silvrsvt]

If Ford can sell $47K Taurii, what's the point of the MKS?

 

How many $47K Taurii do they really sell though? I'd venture to guess that most Taurii are more in the $35K range.

[jpd80]

How many $47K Taurii do they really sell though? I'd venture to guess that most Taurii are more in the $35K range.

I just did a check on cars.com, inventory for Taurus is just over 5600 cars

 

$25,001-$30,000 (999)

$30,001-$35,000 (2034)

$35,001-$40,000 (987)

$40,001-$45,000 (540)

$45,001-$50,000 (494)

$50,001-$55,000 (1)

 

 

Lincoln MKS - inventory at 2,940

 

$30,001-$40,000 (32)

$40,001-$50,000 (981)

$50,001-$75,000 (1638)

Not Priced (289)

 

And for the Flex bashers, take note 2/3s are above $35K - Inventory at 3270

 

$20,001-$25,000 (3)

$25,001-$30,000 (174)

$30,001-$35,000 (738)

$35,001-$40,000 (966)

$40,001-$45,000 (630)

$45,001-$50,000 (373)

$50,001-$55,000 (146)

$55,001-$60,000 (1)

$60,001-$65,000 (1)

Not Priced (238)

Edited August 14, 2012 by jpd80

[NLPRacing]

That hasn't been confirmed. And really, what does that really mean? It's not like the F-150 is a completely unrefined horrible starting point. So it'll get a stick axle out back. Oh noes! It would still benefit from getting modern powertrains, new interiors and technology, and all the other benefits the F-150 brings to the table over the current Expy/Navi.

 

Point being, a future F-150-based Navigator would still be heads and tails better than the current Navigator.

 

As a owner of an IRS equipped Expedition, I sure hope that if/when the F150 and Expedition do merge, that IRS remains in the Expy and maybe even becomes an option in the F150 (would be much better than Dodge's coil spring setup).

 

With that said, I still don't disagree with much of anything you've stated. Of course a potential future F150 based Navigator would be better than the current Navigator. But the bigger question is, would it better than its competition and would it sell any better? Also, would it be good for the image of where they want to take Lincoln? The current Lincoln mandate dictates unique top hats. The problem with that is that sometimes different isn't better (see Flex v MKT as an example). If it isn't different enough from the Expedition than it will be crucified as a "badge engineered" product.

 

If Ford decides to update the Navigator and keep it as a platform mate to the Expedition and they do it right, great. Everyone thought a D3 based Explorer would bomb, but that kind of out of the box thinking at Ford has made it a home run. I think the Navigator needs that kind of out of the box thinking right now.

 

If Ford can sell $47K Taurii, what's the point of the MKS? There are things other than price that separate a Lincoln from a Ford, like a longer bumper-to-bumper warranty, better sound deadening, a better service experience (at least, Ford's trying to make that last one happen), and so forth. Personally, if I'm going to pay Lincoln money, I want the Lincoln "experience" that goes with it...

 

The only reason for the Mark LT was to keep Lincoln alive long enough to start a rebuilding process, and to do it with as small a cash outlay as possible. Once it had served that purpose, there was no reason to keep it around, so it rode off into the sunset.

 

The MKS is different enough to more than justify its existence. Plus it sells well for its class and it shares a platform that will probably sell close to 300,000 total vehicles this year.

 

Not sure how it is where you live or the rest of the country, but here in the Dallas/Fort Worth, Texas area, most Lincoln stores share showrooms & service drives with Ford stores. So when you buy a Ford there, you're already getting the Lincoln "experience".

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-Navigator or anti-Lincoln, just the opposite. I just don't want another half-baked attempt like they did in 2007 nor do I want some ugly road whale that ends up looking like a super sized MKT just to make it look "different" than the Expedition. If a new Navigator comes out, I want it either done right (like the 2002 model), re-invented into something that shakes up or creates a segment like the original Navigator did or do nothing at all and let the name rest until it can be done right.

[NickF1011]

As a owner of an IRS equipped Expedition, I sure hope that if/when the F150 and Expedition do merge, that IRS remains in the Expy and maybe even becomes an option in the F150 (would be much better than Dodge's coil spring setup).

 

With that said, I still don't disagree with much of anything you've stated. Of course a potential future F150 based Navigator would be better than the current Navigator. But the bigger question is, would it better than its competition and would it sell any better? Also, would it be good for the image of where they want to take Lincoln? The current Lincoln mandate dictates unique top hats. The problem with that is that sometimes different isn't better (see Flex v MKT as an example). If it isn't different enough from the Expedition than it will be crucified as a "badge engineered" product.

 

If Ford decides to update the Navigator and keep it as a platform mate to the Expedition and they do it right, great. Everyone thought a D3 based Explorer would bomb, but that kind of out of the box thinking at Ford has made it a home run. I think the Navigator needs that kind of out of the box thinking right now.

 

Well, I wouldn't say the lack of IRS would be a huge problem, other than probably killing the option of fold-flat 3rd row seats, but that has never been a setback for Navi's biggest competitor, the Escalade. And I don't think Ford ever said all Lincolns will all get 100% unique tophats, only that they would get unique sheet metal. Think Escalade vs Tahoe, not MKT vs Flex. There's only so many things you can change on a fullsize SUV without getting some abomination like that fullsize Infiniti barge.

[papilgee4evaeva]

The MKS is different enough to more than justify its existence. Plus it sells well for its class and it shares a platform that will probably sell close to 300,000 total vehicles this year.

 

And somehow a new Navigator based on the Expedition based on the F150 wouldn't share these same characteristics? (especially the bolded one)

[akirby]

And somehow a new Navigator based on the Expedition based on the F150 wouldn't share these same characteristics? (especially the bolded one)

 

Yes it would and that's why it's the only viable scenario for keeping the Expy and or Navi. But with a shrinking market the business case is probably slim so they have to decide if it's worth keeping at all.