akirby Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Anyone who thinks GM shouldn't have bothered with the Volt is an absolute fool. From what I've seen so far the Volt is the more practical choice for my situation. I could change my mind if some real facts and not fan boy propaganda shows me something different. Nobody is saying that the Volt is a bad purchase for someone who can use a 35 mile electric range, especially given the current lease deals. We're saying that GM is not making good business decisions by: 1 - futzing around with mild hybrids while the other mfrs developed real hybrids years ago 2 - choosing an architecture that is known to be less efficient in depleted battery mode than a traditional hybrid (37 mpg vs. 47 mpg) 3 - creating a business case and an expectation of sales that didn't match actual demand, then using subvened leases to try and reach those unrealistic targets. The Volt is nothing more than a plug-in hybrid with a 35 mile range that gets 37 mpg once the battery is depleted that only seats 4 with a standard trunk The Cmax Energi is a plug-in hybrid with a 20 mile range that gets 47 mpg once the battery is depleted that seats 5 and has a large cargo capacity and a hatchback. The Volt is $40K and the CMax Energi is $33K. If Ford increased the battery range to 35 miles the Cmax Energi would be around $40K. It can't be difficult - they already have a Focus that goes almost 100 miles. The basic hybrid technology that Ford is using now is the same as the original Escape hybrid system. It's been updated with new software and new parts but it's fundamentally the same. So yes - a lot of that cost has already been amortized and whatever they spent on the new Energis (chargers, etc.) will be amortized soon. And I do know what amortized means. I've been doing 8 and 9 figure IT business cases for a fortune 100 company for 20 years so you can save your condescending attitude for someone who deserves it. Apparently you can't recognize a mismanaged company when you see it. I guess you think going bankrupt wasn't their fault either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I've been doing 8 and 9 figure IT business cases for a fortune 100 company for 20 years Does that count the 2 figures after the decimal place? :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Does that count the 2 figures after the decimal place? :P Did I say 8 or 9 figures? I meant $8 or $9. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 You guys are too much......Ford spends five years marketing and building brand equity with Escape hybrid, and then after all those years says, "Sorry, forget 47mpg Escape hybrid and now you will have to buy lower to ground not as good looking C-Max if you want 47mpg in combined driving. Ford's market research suggests that C- Max hybrid has better prospects than another Escape hybrid. we will soon know if their plan is working or not.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ford's market research suggests that C- Max hybrid has better prospects than another Escape hybrid. we will soon know if their plan is working or not.... Escape Hybrid as a marketing piece had already completed its mission: Show the world that Ford was forward-thinking enough to give people the "truck" they wanted with the fuel efficiency they needed. With the wide range of powerplants available in the new Escape, marketing message for Escape Hybrid could have had trouble breaking through. As has been said here, a Hybrid return should be a fairly easy MCE addition, provided they can procure the batteries needed for such volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) GM offered low leases on 2012 Volts. Ford doesn't offer incentives on outgoing models? GM has never indicated it would give away Volts. Stupid to even make that claim. There is a lot of new engineering in the Cmax and Fusion hybrids and Energi models. Saying its all been amortized is you throwing out a big word you don't understand the meaning of. Capital costs are applied against sales, basic accounting principle of matching revenues and expenses. Come back when you know what you're talking about. Richard Jensen: GM has only one EREV planned? No other products that will come from that idea? Didn't know you sit in on GM board meetings. It's the beginning, not the end. My electric hasn't changed much in 10 years. My gas costs have been all over the map. What do you here on the news, spiking gas prices or electric rates? Gas was $1.50 to $2 back then, my electric was .11 and is now .13 and I can get .062 on an off peak rate. You didn't really bring up such a weak point as electric rates, did you? Ford built the Escape hybrid when? GM has had the Volt out how long? You gave Ford time to do something with the Escape and first gen Fusion hybrid and dismiss the Volt right away. Lutz, who was behind the creation of the Volt, said that hybrids won't be viable until gas prices are higher and so far he's been proven right. The Prius didn't do much until gas prices spiked around Katrina and again in 08. Used Focus? Is that all you got? Weak. JPD80: The 220 million was investment in the plant and tooling, not in the engineering of it. Millions in battery work. Atkinson version of the engine is not free. Changes to the platform to accommodate the different power train. Add it all up and the cost gets recovered by the sale of the product. Ford has just started doing that. Don't sell product and those costs never get covered. No one has shown the Volt costs more to get out the door than it's sold for. Selling fewer isn't going to cover the capital costs. It's now sold in Europe and Australia being produced in a US plant. From your link, 1000 engineers on the project. Must be cheap for Ford. Can't believe the wasted band width from you not answering my points with any substance. Volt isn't stand alone tech, it can apply to other vehicles in the future. Ford's hybrids have been evolving for years and the Volt for much less. You think it should be at the same point as far as family of products? It was already shown the Cmax with a bigger battery is more money than a Volt. GM did a survey and determined that most commuters drove 40 miles or less and that is why they chose their range and their battery size had some to do with the tax credit and some to do with battery life. Thinking the average mileage is 15k so the Volt doesn't work isn't paying attention to the variety of needs of drivers. There are plenty of people the Volt isn't the best choice. My wife is one, but the Energi isn't likely to be a good choice either for her. The hybrids will if I speculate on higher gas prices. Many people I know can benefit from one of those choices and many the Volt could be the best choice. As gas prices climb it will look better and better. It uses more cheap electric travel and less travel by gas. If used to its advantage its FE isn't much of a point, ask Jay Leno. Fan boys on a Ford site that can't see the benefits of a GM is so unheard of. I think the Energis and hybrids have a lot of promise and I'm not dismissing them like many of you dismiss the Volt. Anyone who thinks GM shouldn't have bothered with the Volt is an absolute fool. From what I've seen so far the Volt is the more practical choice for my situation. I could change my mind if some real facts and not fan boy propaganda shows me something different. there was NEVER any incentives on the Escape hybrid...and the main issue with the volt comes AFTER 60 miles...how hard is THAT to see......seriously, ball back in YOUR court...nothing to do with fan-boi-ism, IMO the Volt is a fundamentally flawed concept, and I would think the same if ANY manufacturer followed that road...makes me wonder why NO ONE ELSE DID. Edited October 17, 2012 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ford's market research suggests that C- Max hybrid has better prospects than another Escape hybrid. we will soon know if their plan is working or not.... we have had more C-maxs come through the store in a month than we had Escape hybrids for THE YEAR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 And just for the record - if the only hybrid that Ford was selling was a plug-in sedan with seating for 4, 35 mile battery range and 37 mpg on depleted battery mode and they were using subvened leases to sell even more of them than people wanted to buy then I would be just as critical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) we have had more C-maxs come through the store in a month than we had Escape hybrids for THE YEAR. Repeated for emphasis. Thanks Deanh. Edited October 17, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) JPD80: The 220 million was investment in the plant and tooling, not in the engineering of it. Millions in battery work. Atkinson version of the engine is not free. Changes to the platform to accommodate the different power train. Add it all up and the cost gets recovered by the sale of the product. Ford has just started doing that. Don't sell product and those costs never get covered. No one has shown the Volt costs more to get out the door than it's sold for. Selling fewer isn't going to cover the capital costs. It's now sold in Europe and Australia being produced in a US plant. And the Volt retails for $60,000 in Australia, no discounts, no attractive leasing Agreed, there is cost of development but as I said, taking the more processes internally save the company around 30% of the development cost. The point i'm making is that Ford developed hybrid and energi and the transmissions, adapted the 2.0 DI for that purpose across C-max, Fusion and MKZ so immediately there's good scales of economy with a development team working on three versions that we know about.... FoE has indicated Hybrid Mondeo is on the way and it wouldn't surprise that hybrid C-Max isn't offered there as well.. Add to that, this generation of hybrids are evolutionary and aimed directly at cutting costs, not greenfield like Volt where delivering new tech is allays more expensive and needing support to nurture and grow the market. Clearly Ford and Toyota re building on the success of previous hybrid models. GM did a survey and determined that most commuters drove 40 miles or less and that is why they chose their range and their battery size had some to do with the tax credit and some to do with battery life. Thinking the average mileage is 15k so the Volt doesn't work isn't paying attention to the variety of needs of drivers. There are plenty of people the Volt isn't the best choice. My wife is one, but the Energi isn't likely to be a good choice either for her. The hybrids will if I speculate on higher gas prices. Many people I know can benefit from one of those choices and many the Volt could be the best choice. As gas prices climb it will look better and better. It uses more cheap electric travel and less travel by gas. If used to its advantage its FE isn't much of a point, ask Jay Leno. Battery range is the only advantage Volt has over all other hybrid vehicles, why aren't competitors at least matching Volt's range? Either they can't because of cost ...or.....maybe that 40 miles of electric range is the upper limit and 15-20 miles is adequate. Fan boys on a Ford site that can't see the benefits of a GM is so unheard of. I think the Energis and hybrids have a lot of promise and I'm not dismissing them like many of you dismiss the Volt. Anyone who thinks GM shouldn't have bothered with the Volt is an absolute fool. From what I've seen so far the Volt is the more practical choice for my situation. I could change my mind if some real facts and not fan boy propaganda shows me something different. I don't dislike Voltec, I just think GM missed a great opportunity to showcase it in better vehicles like Epsillon II range or even Equinox/Captiva. where the fuel savings would have been arguably much more substantial. I can understand a lot of buyers having Volt just to thumb their noses at oil companies, a protest against jacked up prices and instead giving money over to technology to free more consumers for their grip. What GM does with next gen Voltec is crucial and I for one hope they are able to further cut their own internal costs and make the ICE more efficient. To me at least, Plug In Hybrids and Volt will remain fairly limited sales in comparison to hybrids which are becoming more mainstream but still have a long way to go. The question with electrifying cars is just how much battery only use buyers are prepared to pay for, and Today's answer is not necessarily what will be correct in the next two to three years. If gas prices spike again all bets are off... Edited October 17, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyboxrv Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Here's the problem with GM's strategy: They can't put the Voltec system in a Malibu. Test mules were Malibus. Saying can't is totally laughable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyboxrv Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Nobody is saying that the Volt is a bad purchase for someone who can use a 35 mile electric range, especially given the current lease deals. We're saying that GM is not making good business decisions by: 1 - futzing around with mild hybrids while the other mfrs developed real hybrids years ago 2 - choosing an architecture that is known to be less efficient in depleted battery mode than a traditional hybrid (37 mpg vs. 47 mpg) 3 - creating a business case and an expectation of sales that didn't match actual demand, then using subvened leases to try and reach those unrealistic targets. The Volt is nothing more than a plug-in hybrid with a 35 mile range that gets 37 mpg once the battery is depleted that only seats 4 with a standard trunk The Cmax Energi is a plug-in hybrid with a 20 mile range that gets 47 mpg once the battery is depleted that seats 5 and has a large cargo capacity and a hatchback. The Volt is $40K and the CMax Energi is $33K. If Ford increased the battery range to 35 miles the Cmax Energi would be around $40K. It can't be difficult - they already have a Focus that goes almost 100 miles. The basic hybrid technology that Ford is using now is the same as the original Escape hybrid system. It's been updated with new software and new parts but it's fundamentally the same. So yes - a lot of that cost has already been amortized and whatever they spent on the new Energis (chargers, etc.) will be amortized soon. And I do know what amortized means. I've been doing 8 and 9 figure IT business cases for a fortune 100 company for 20 years so you can save your condescending attitude for someone who deserves it. Apparently you can't recognize a mismanaged company when you see it. I guess you think going bankrupt wasn't their fault either. GM had the dual mode and other manufacturers are using it. Lutz decided that going after what everyone else was doing wouldn't move technology forward, they needed something that goes to the next step. You're too foolish to recognize they accomplished that. Volt gets 40 mpg hwy. One complaint here has been it's lack of usefulness for other types of trips where gas would be used for most of it. A 1000 mile trip in a Cmax uses just over 21 gallons. Same trip in a Volt uses 25. Wow huge difference. GM found that 70% or more of commuters go 40 miles or less. I remember all the whiners complaining that wasn't far enough, but now 21 is. A huge number of people will have their needs met by 38 mile electric range. I would do better with a Volt than a Cmax. The Volt has a $7500 tax credit, the Cmax $3750. Net cost is $2500 difference. You haven't got a clue what amortizing is. Hundreds of millions were invested in the new system. The CVT functions differently. Costs are applied to vehicles sold and so far that is few. There are a lot more costs that will be applied over the next few years. I bought as much Ford stock as I could when it was near $2 and I did well. It was $2 because the company had been mismanaged, so yes I can recognize a mismanaged company. Ford would have been in the same boat if they hadn't mortaged their entire future before it was too late. Neither predicted the economic collapse. None of that has to do with whether their hybrid products makes sense or not, it just you thinking a cheap shot makes a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyboxrv Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 there was NEVER any incentives on the Escape hybrid...and the main issue with the volt comes AFTER 60 miles...how hard is THAT to see......seriously, ball back in YOUR court...nothing to do with fan-boi-ism, IMO the Volt is a fundamentally flawed concept, and I would think the same if ANY manufacturer followed that road...makes me wonder why NO ONE ELSE DID. Did I say there were incentives on the Escape hybrid? Never. How well did the Escape hybrid sell? What happens after 60 miles? The Fisker uses an engine to charge the battery. Your lack of understanding is fundamentally flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Did I say there were incentives on the Escape hybrid? Never. How well did the Escape hybrid sell? What happens after 60 miles? The Fisker uses an engine to charge the battery. Your lack of understanding is fundamentally flawed. I would say THIS statement infers so yes...GM offered low leases on 2012 Volts. Ford doesn't offer incentives on outgoing models?.....and you will be happy to know every Escape Hybrid made, sold, and Fisker???? SERIOUSLY....how well are they doing?....... Edited October 17, 2012 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Test mules were Malibus. That's utterly irrelevant. This is an MKT mule: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Toy Box...show me a MAJOR player thats followed the same path as the Volt with some iota of sucess at least....Im saying theres a reason no-one else has gone down that road....and then if you could explain how $199 leases and the heavy subsidies to get to that figure dont counter another of your statements....QUOTE..GM has never indicated it would give away Volts. Stupid to even make that claim.....then perhaps i could get on the same page as you are....right now, im sorry, but Im not.... Edited October 17, 2012 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 That's utterly irrelevant. This is an MKT mule: dare I say a better looking MKT.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) You haven't got a clue what amortizing is Here's a clue: Insulting other people is not a logically sustainable argument. You're out of your league when discussing business concepts, and we are, therefore, done here. Feel free to contribute on other subjects, but as of now, your comments on the Volt are no longer welcome--anywhere on this board. Please, by all means, go to other boards and talk about how cruelly you've been treated, and how unfairly we acted, and how this is censorship and how we're all a bunch of fanboys. Edited October 17, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Do whatever you want, protest however you wish. Just be aware that we reserve the right to delete your posts and suspend you for--in short--being a jackass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Did I say there were incentives on the Escape hybrid? Never. How well did the Escape hybrid sell? What happens after 60 miles? The Fisker uses an engine to charge the battery. Your lack of understanding is fundamentally flawed. no my understanding is fine...after 60 miles all advantages have GOME and actual MPGS are substandard in comparison with pretty much EVERY other Hybrid manufacturers alternative....the volts serious flaw is an inefficient ICE.....and seriously if thats not well enough explained let me know although im not a fan of bar graphs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 toyboxrv is no longer allowed to post on this thread. He can't answer your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 toyboxrv is no longer allowed to post on this thread. He can't answer your post. dammit, was just getting juicy...I LIKE the Volt personally, but until its gas engine becomes more efficient its just not competitive once that magic 60 mile figure is reached.....although I DO think its a superior alternative to the full electrics.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 It's a 'statement' car, and a very expensive one at that. Rather than develop a variety of boring but substantial technologies that can be combined and used in a variety of packages (the Toyota & Ford strategy), GM opted to invest all its money on a comparatively inflexible solution. A solution that is well adapted for a certain small subset of customers and more or less unsuitable for a far greater number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 news alert, Ford leases on the focus electric are now pretty competitive.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 It's a 'statement' car, and a very expensive one at that. As was the XLR. As was the GTO. As was the G8. As was the Solstice. GM goes after way too many one hit wonders while letting the bread and butter products languish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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