Did this guy just kill the Chevy Volt?

[SoonerLS]

What do you mean, the engine -> generator -> motor setup? I'd say that's a pretty darn insignificant part of what makes the Volt "new technology".

Whether or not it's an "insignificant part" is debatable, but it is what differentiates the Volt from the other hybrids.

[jpd80]

What do you mean, the engine -> generator -> motor setup? I'd say that's a pretty darn insignificant part of what makes the Volt "new technology".

No it's not, Volt is a series Hybrid, which neams in depleted battery mode, the engine drives a generator which in turns drives a motor winch drives the transmission

In a conventional hybrid, the engine drives an epicyclic transmission that's balanced by an electric motor which provides the VCT ingredient needed to make the ICE

more efficient. Therefore the parallel hybrid is inherently more efficient in depleted battery mode.

Edited October 13, 2012 by jpd80

[FordBuyer]

No, it's not. It's a green pacifier, that's all, even a troll can see that.

 

I sure hope that GM brings out a Volt convertible, and a Volt station wagon or maybe a poor man's Fisker, with a Volt SS. They should spend way more money on it, and is that not a GM halo car? Let's see if Mr. Akerson can give it some attitude . . .

 

Well, GM is doing the new Cadillac ELR that will have a smaller, more powerful battery and more fuel efficient engine to recharge the battery. I saw pics of it....looks good. Now you guys can go back to bashing the Volt and maybe even try your hand at the Cadillac version before it comes out in MY 2014.

[FordBuyer]

No it's not, Volt is a series Hybrid, which neams in depleted battery mode, the engine drives a generator which in turns drives a motor winch drives the transmission

In a conventional hybrid, the engine drives an epicyclic transmission that's balanced by an electric motor which provides the VCT ingredient needed to make the ICE

more efficient. Therefore the parallel hybrid is inherently more efficient in depleted battery mode.

 

I would take the extended range $40,000 Volt over the limited range Leaf and Focus that also costs $40,000 and not near as distinctive. I can see why the Volt outsells Leaf and EV Focus by HUGE margin. Right now it's the only game in town as Tesla Model S has money and supplier issues so that very few are being produced, even though it supposedly has 50,000 orders. And Ford's Energi models are not out yet, so hard to comment on them other than Ford PR. However, I hope the Ford plug-ins are homeruns and the more the merrier. They certainly conserve gas and put out less emissions which is important.

[JasonM]

Right now it's the only game in town

 

You failed to mention the Plug in Prius

[FordBuyer]

You failed to mention the Plug in Prius

 

You are correct. And Toyota has 51% of the market. Ford used to have 10%, but is now down to 4% with no Escape hybrid anymore and Fusion hybrid sales are down this year. So Ford has nowhere to go but up. And I would agree that GM made bad decision going with mild hybrid only and putting all its resources into Volt. Still doesn't make the Volt a bad effort though as it alone outsells all of Ford's hybrids. And I do hope the new C-Max sells real will along with Fusion, MKZ, and the Energi models. Furthermore, I hope Ford offers much more in hybrids in a couple years than this and that they have the suppliers lined up to not be so prouction constrained in hybrid, battery, trans department.

[akirby]

Still doesn't make the Volt a bad effort though as it alone outsells all of Ford's hybrids.

 

If Ford sold 100,000 Fusion hybrids for $1 each, would that make it better than the Volt?

[akirby]

What do you mean, the engine -> generator -> motor setup? I'd say that's a pretty darn insignificant part of what makes the Volt "new technology".

 

That's the ONLY thing that makes the Volt "new technology". It has a battery that can propel it for 35 miles. The plug-in regular hybrids can go up to 20 miles and EVs can go up to 100 miles on battery power alone. So that part isn't new. The engine is a normal ICE gasoline engine so that's not new. The only thing that's new is that the engine doesn't drive the vehicle directly except in rare high speed circumstances and that's the only difference. And that is not new technology - it's 100 year old locomotive technology with newer batteries.

 

If the volt used a hydrogen fuel cell or some other alternative fuel generator then THAT would be new.

[Deanh]

You are correct. And Toyota has 51% of the market. Ford used to have 10%, but is now down to 4% with no Escape hybrid anymore and Fusion hybrid sales are down this year. So Ford has nowhere to go but up. And I would agree that GM made bad decision going with mild hybrid only and putting all its resources into Volt. Still doesn't make the Volt a bad effort though as it alone outsells all of Ford's hybrids. And I do hope the new C-Max sells real will along with Fusion, MKZ, and the Energi models. Furthermore, I hope Ford offers much more in hybrids in a couple years than this and that they have the suppliers lined up to not be so prouction constrained in hybrid, battery, trans department.

C-max will outsell Volt eventually...mark my words....and it wont be because ford takes it in the Tommy Bahamas and advertises a $199 lease....

[Ron W.]

C-max will outsell Volt eventually...mark my words....and it wont be because ford takes it in the Tommy Bahamas and advertises a $199 lease....

 

 

Not to mention Deanh has to work a Saturday so don't piss him off. :shades:

Edited October 13, 2012 by Ron W.

[jpd80]

You are correct. And Toyota has 51% of the market. Ford used to have 10%, but is now down to 4% with no Escape hybrid anymore and Fusion hybrid sales are down this year. So Ford has nowhere to go but up. And I would agree that GM made bad decision going with mild hybrid only and putting all its resources into Volt. Still doesn't make the Volt a bad effort though as it alone outsells all of Ford's hybrids. And I do hope the new C-Max sells real will along with Fusion, MKZ, and the Energi models. Furthermore, I hope Ford offers much more in hybrids in a couple years than this and that they have the suppliers lined up to not be so prouction constrained in hybrid, battery, trans department.

Hybrid sales are a balancing act and as we've seen before, Ford is not prepared to chase market share at the cost of profitability

so continually bringing up market percentages is irrelevant, every Ford hybrid sold will make a profit - you can bank on that.

 

This generation of Ford hybrid also has the advantage of much more in house sourced parts, improving both supply volumes and costs.

While i do agree that no Escape hybrid is a gamble, Deanh's assertion that C-Max will eventually out sell Volt is positive reassurance.

I would expect that energi roll out will continue into more CD4 products as they arrive, hopefully larger/heavier models get bigger versions too.

 

Voltec aligns more or less with Plug In Hybrids, e Assist aligns more with stop-start tech systems. While GM seems to have those two areas covered,

they have completely missed the very essential middle ground hybrid market which is now the most mature of the three areas and offers bang for bucks.

Ford no doubt sees this market offering the best ROI and also enables it to very effectively add a PIH as incremental increases in sales.

 

I don't hate Volt, it's more that GM could have picked other more suitable vehicles for electrification (hybriding) that would have given better ROI.

Edited October 13, 2012 by jpd80

[Edstock]

Well, GM is doing the new Cadillac ELR that will have a smaller, more powerful battery and more fuel efficient engine to recharge the battery. I saw pics of it....looks good.

 

That's GREAT! I hope they spent LOTS of money. Sure hope they bring out a wagon version and a convertible. Maybe even a stretch version, even. Gotta be a halo car for Cadillac.

[jpd80]

Without attractive leasing and $7,500 government tax credit, Volt sales would be dead in the water, so no doubt, GM is trying their darnedest to build a market.

I just see the conventional hybrid market as being easier pickings, previous versions really smoothed the way for Ford to take full advantage.

And in the end, it is not a race, it's about finding enough buyers in a huge market who want to purchase a hybrid that fills their needs,

How much electrification do buyers really want, I'm betting that answer lies closer to hybrids and PIHs than it does to Voltec.

Edited October 13, 2012 by jpd80

[sullynd]

Well, GM is doing the new Cadillac ELR that will have a smaller, more powerful battery and more fuel efficient engine to recharge the battery.

 

 

Ford's Energi models are not out yet, so hard to comment on them other than Ford PR

 

Man, you are consistent. Has GM even acknowledged the existence of the ELR?

[JasonM]

. And Ford's Energi models are not out yet, so hard to comment on them other than Ford PR.

 

Nothing available other than Ford PR?

 

How about

 

1) The EPA has released their ratings

2) EPA certified as the US's most fuel efficient plug-in hybrid

3) Priced as America's most affordable plug-in hybrid

4) Based on a vehicle that is already on the market with same major powertrain components

5) Its already in production

6) Has been available for order for months

7) Pricing, options, packages, colors, been available for months

8) Owners manual available online

 

Yea, we know absolutely nothing about the Energi.

[jpd80]

Take the worst possible case for C-Max hybrid Versus volt wher the Volt is able to use all of its battery only range one way and then return home after a recharge,

that would be 80 miles maximum which is actually less than 2 gallons of fuel required by the C-max hybrid and at today's prices that would be less than $7/ round trip.

So even if C-Max cost $40/week in fuel for two years, the normal lease on a Volt, that C-max costs its owner approximately $4,000 in fuel compared to the Volt.

 

Therefore worst possible case, the lower price of C-Max hybrid actually covers the fuel used in two years of running compared to Volt using electric running only.

Unfortunately, people leasing Volt will only look at not using gas and therefore miss that that they are no better off.

 

All of the above then makes a compelling case for the 2013 Fusion hybrid as an even better all round package..

Edited October 13, 2012 by jpd80

[rmc523]

Man, you are consistent. Has GM even acknowledged the existence of the ELR?

 

[sullynd]

I've seen those too. Has GM acknowledged that it exists?

[Noah Harbinger]

That's the ONLY thing that makes the Volt "new technology". It has a battery that can propel it for 35 miles. The plug-in regular hybrids can go up to 20 miles and EVs can go up to 100 miles on battery power alone. So that part isn't new. The engine is a normal ICE gasoline engine so that's not new. The only thing that's new is that the engine doesn't drive the vehicle directly except in rare high speed circumstances and that's the only difference. And that is not new technology - it's 100 year old locomotive technology with newer batteries.

 

If the volt used a hydrogen fuel cell or some other alternative fuel generator then THAT would be new.

 

It individually charge-levels every cell in its liquid-cooled battery. Show me another automobile on the road that does that.

 

Did diesel-electric locomotives have non=trivial battery banks? I'm no expert but from what I've read it doesn't seem like it.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Noah Harbinger

[RichardJensen]

It individually charge-levels every cell in its liquid-cooled battery.

Which would be nice if it improved anything that buyers care about.

[JasonM]

It individually charge-levels every cell in its liquid-cooled battery. Show me another automobile on the road that does that.

 

Did diesel-electric locomotives have non=trivial battery banks? I'm no expert but from what I've read it doesn't seem like it.

 

Which would be nice if it improved anything that buyers care about.

 

Some items that buyers might care about would be:

 

1) an engine that doesn't require Premium fuel

2) a total range greater than 379 miles

3) something more effiecient than 37mpg in hybrid mode

4) something roomier than cramped 2+2 seating

[SoonerLS]

Did diesel-electric locomotives have non=trivial battery banks? I'm no expert but from what I've read it doesn't seem like it.

I'm not sure how you're defining "non=trivial" battery banks, but the US Navy's Gato- and Balao-class submarines from WWII used that same diesel->generator->battery->electric motor layout (some of their powerplants were the same as then-current diesel-electric locomotives), and they certainly had what I would consider to be non-trivial banks of batteries.

Edited October 14, 2012 by SoonerLS

[rmc523]

I've seen those too. Has GM acknowledged that it exists?

 

It's right on Cadillac's website (concept pictured): http://www.cadillac.com/elr-electric-car.html

[Edstock]

 

Looks nice . . . won't be too long before somebody gets rid of all the electro crap and drops in a Vette V-8 with a ZF transaxle . . .

[toyboxrv]

Actually, it goes something like this:

 

The Volt is selling well below expectations. Why?

 

* Maybe because gas-only FE is disappointing?

 

* Maybe because it only seats 4?

 

* Maybe it's too expensive?

 

I mean seriously, there is a real problem here: The Volt is not meeting expectations, and GM spent a stone cold fortune on that car.

 

Because the Volt is a great car for *you* does not mean that it is a great car for the number of buyers GM was counting on which are going elsewhere.

 

And the C-Max PIH which delivers what? 90% of the Volt experience with greater practicality and at 75% of the cost is a textbook example of how a car company *should* be doing this.

 

Talk about being a troll. You come up with every little negative you can and exaggerate every one.

 

The price of gas is not near the range it was expected to be to get the sales for the Volt. The economy still sucks. Projections for the Volt were made in 08 when both the economy and gas prices were different. The 60k number included global sales and Europe's economy sucks more than ours, yet sales are near 30k in 9 months. How well is that Focus electric doing? How much does it cost?

 

Speak with people in the real world and FE of a Volt is 40+ as well as electric range. I have consistently averaged 26 - 28 commuting with my Mustang with an EPA of 23. The Fusion has done 33+ with an EPA in 07 of 31 and 29 in 08. I can plug in at work and have nearly my entire trip on electric. A Cmax/Fusion Energi would be half or less.Right now that would be $2 for electric and $2 for gas in the Volt. The Energi would be $1 or more, don't know how much it actually charges the battery yet, for electric and $4 for gas. that's more. Considering my boss would likely let me charge for free and I can get a lower off peak rate at home, my electric would drop more with the Volt. The point of any plug in is to use the electric as much as possible and leave the gas engine to occasional extra trips. The difference on my daily commute for the substandard FE rating of the Volt compared to the Cmax rating is maybe a tenth of a gallon. Long trips would be more, but likely wouldn't exceed 10 gallons in any recent years for me.

 

Different people will have different needs that change the benefits of one car over the other. For me the Volt is a better choice. I currently have on 08 GT and it has less rear seat room than a Volt, but I didn't, so far, hear any comments on how lame that choice was. For my wife a Fusion hybrid might be a better choice than any of the gas only models, but a plug in isn't worth the added cost.

 

Need to be a bit more realistic on figuring cost difference there RJ. The Volt is 40k before a $7500 rebate the Cmax Energi is 33k before a $3750 rebate. That's a little closer to 90% of the cost, not 75% and about 55% of the range of the 2013 Volt's 38 miles.Except we all know that mileage may vary. You could probably make a real point if you used real facts.

 

Deanh: Not sure what your point of, "so now you need to own TWO cars when one could suffice" I already need two vehicles for my wife and I as we drive to different places at different times. I choose to have the bike and the Mustang, but need the truck for trailer pulling and other truck uses that no hybrid or plug in can do. What one vehicle would suffice for me?