FordBuyer Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 It's not meaningless if 80% of prospective buyers prefer one design over the other. Good point. What does a GM buyer do if they don't want a Volt but want a regular hybrid that gets 47 mpg? I guess they have to go to Ford or Toyota or Nissan or Hyundai or Honda. Not if they're losing too much money that they don't believe they can make up later. You really don't understand this whole profit/loss thing, do you? I understand halo cars like Corvette, Ford GT, and so on. I also understand high tech development costs and how long it may take to get that money back. GM put a lot of money and time into Volt project, and time will tell if it was wise investment. And sure I would agree GM probably made big mistake investing in mild hybrids instead of full hybirds. Right now I feel it's too early in game to call the Volt a huge failure. GM has dedicated a big building and staff to battery research on GM Tech campus, and so it looks to me like Volt will be improved over time as Cadillac gets its version. I sure hope this effort is successful along with Ford's Energi models and EV's and plug-ins can make at least a small dent in auto market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Halo cars don't work, FB. And GM sacrificed practicality with the Volt's battery pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Halo cars don't work, FB. And GM sacrificed practicality with the Volt's battery pack. So you've seen the super high cargo shelf on the Energi C-Max? I have, and cargo space is very significantly marginalized. And not much cargo room in Energi Fusion either as shown at NAIAS. I do like the Fusion hybird though with its rear seats for first time being like regular Fusion drop down. The Fusion Hybrid is big homerun, but verdict is still out for Energi models/sales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 (edited) So you've seen the super high cargo shelf on the Energi C-Max? I have, and cargo space is very significantly marginalized. "Hey Bill, Dan's wife decided to come along with him to the concert." "Uh...." "What?" "Well, we can't take my Volt." "Why?" "No room." "What?" "It only seats four." Or better yet, imagine that conversation at the guy's house. "Uh, no room." --- What 'family car' these days doesn't seat at least 5? This was a major screw-up that was done because Lutz once worked at BMW and has never gotten over it. You can bet that there were any number of engineers on the program that fought tooth and nail to keep 5 passenger seating, and you can bet that Lutz overruled them. And for what? Better weight distribution on a car that is going to be running on super skinny/super hard low-rolling-resistance tires? Wow. Thanks, Bob. Maybe it's a bit presumptuous of me to, having just heard about this, conclude that this was Lutz's doing, but sheesh, it's got his fingerprints all over it. "Better weight distribution" as in "better handling" as in "I helped launch the 3-Series, you know!" I mean this just reeks of the same decision-making that subjected Europe to 10 years of the Sierra. --- For most customers, reduced storage space is a smaller concern than reduced seating capacity. Edited October 10, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 The Fusion design is superior, but it isn't the market disrupting breakthrough design like the Sonata and Optima was when they came out. The only reason you think that way is both the previous generation Sonata and Optima looked like turds. The Fusion has been a decent looking Sedan since its introduction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 So you've seen the super high cargo shelf on the Energi C-Max? I have, and cargo space is very significantly marginalized. And not much cargo room in Energi Fusion either as shown at NAIAS. I do like the Fusion hybird though with its rear seats for first time being like regular Fusion drop down. The Fusion Hybrid is big homerun, but verdict is still out for Energi models/sales. Of course, you know how many years the Fusion "hybird" (sic) has been out. And of course, you know how many months the C-Max has been on sale. Chances are, not every Ford dealer has received them, so it's still a little early to come to any sales conclusions, except if you're a troll, which you are. Troll on, dude, troll on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toyboxrv Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 and yet if you do anything ( if you can call the distance both give in pure electric significant ) significant mileage or any sort of trip ( if one can call anything ove the pure electric range a trip ) the Volt gets OWNED. Game over, theres a new Sheriff in town, two c-maxs rolled Saturday alone, BOTH had been shopping Prius.....people want more than BS pure electric range, they want the best of both worlds...with more focus on overall usability.... Driving 25k miles each year to work like I do the Volt would completely own the Cmax hybrid or plug in. Last year I made one trip of 1500 in my F150, had to pick up a Harley, and one trip of 2000 miles on my motorcycle. Don't see why owning a car that does better on long trips I don't take is very important. I would look at what benefits me most for my situation and that would be a Volt over a Cmax/Fusion hybrid or Energi. It is nowhere near game over, it's just your irrational hate of GM. Just because the Volt only sits four is a weak argument. I can take my F150 Super Crew the few times and that kind of argument would mean my motorcycle is owned by a hybrid. Not likely. Trying to dismiss the Volt because it doesn't do as well on long trips or doesn't seat 5 is pathetic, get a real argument to support your point. If you think I'm just a GM lover, guess again. I have an 08 Mustang GT and my wife has an 07 Fusion besides the F150. I would consider a Cmax/Fusion hybrid for my wife as she has a long commute and no chance of plugging in at work. Don't think the Energi model would be a better choice, but I haven't seen any real world results for it. It would spend too much time on gas and may as well save the cost difference and spend it on gas instead of a little electric. Time will tell though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Just because the Volt only sits four is a weak argument. Trying to dismiss the Volt because it doesn't do as well on long trips or doesn't seat 5 is pathetic, get a real argument to support your point. For a family of 5, a Volt is worthless, unless you want to have to buy another car to haul the entire family when you go somewhere together. So, no, it's not a week argument when you are talking about a family car. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Driving 25k miles each year to work like I do the Volt would completely own the Cmax hybrid or plug in. Last year I made one trip of 1500 in my F150, had to pick up a Harley, and one trip of 2000 miles on my motorcycle. Don't see why owning a car that does better on long trips I don't take is very important. I would look at what benefits me most for my situation and that would be a Volt over a Cmax/Fusion hybrid or Energi. It is nowhere near game over, it's just your irrational hate of GM. Just because the Volt only sits four is a weak argument. I can take my F150 Super Crew the few times and that kind of argument would mean my motorcycle is owned by a hybrid. Not likely. Trying to dismiss the Volt because it doesn't do as well on long trips or doesn't seat 5 is pathetic, get a real argument to support your point. If you think I'm just a GM lover, guess again. I have an 08 Mustang GT and my wife has an 07 Fusion besides the F150. I would consider a Cmax/Fusion hybrid for my wife as she has a long commute and no chance of plugging in at work. Don't think the Energi model would be a better choice, but I haven't seen any real world results for it. It would spend too much time on gas and may as well save the cost difference and spend it on gas instead of a little electric. Time will tell though. So that's 100 miles per day, RT. If you don't recharge the battery at work then the CMAX energi would use 1.70 gallons of gasoline per day (20 miles on battery, 80 miles on gas at 47 mpg). The Volt would use 1.76 gallons of gasoline per day (35 miles on battery, 65 miles on gas at 37 mpg). I wouldn't call that anywhere close to "completely owning". If you can recharge fully at work then the Volt would be cheaper on gas but would use more electricity. It all depends on how you drive because once the battery runs out the Volt is nowhere near as efficient as the CMax or Fusion Energi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Of course, if you can charge at work, that's like getting gas for free! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Trying to dismiss the Volt because it doesn't do as well on long trips or doesn't seat 5 is pathetic, get a real argument to support your point. Actually, it goes something like this: The Volt is selling well below expectations. Why? * Maybe because gas-only FE is disappointing? * Maybe because it only seats 4? * Maybe it's too expensive? I mean seriously, there is a real problem here: The Volt is not meeting expectations, and GM spent a stone cold fortune on that car. Because the Volt is a great car for *you* does not mean that it is a great car for the number of buyers GM was counting on which are going elsewhere. And the C-Max PIH which delivers what? 90% of the Volt experience with greater practicality and at 75% of the cost is a textbook example of how a car company *should* be doing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Actually, it goes something like this: The Volt is selling well below expectations. Why? * Maybe because gas-only FE is disappointing? * Maybe because it only seats 4? * Maybe it's too expensive? I mean seriously, there is a real problem here: The Volt is not meeting expectations, and GM spent a stone cold fortune on that car. Because the Volt is a great car for *you* does not mean that it is a great car for the number of buyers GM was counting on which are going elsewhere. And the C-Max PIH which delivers what? 90% of the Volt experience with greater practicality and at 75% of the cost is a textbook example of how a car company *should* be doing this. I would submit that their sales expectations were wildly optimistic bordering on fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Driving 25k miles each year to work like I do the Volt would completely own the Cmax hybrid or plug in. Last year I made one trip of 1500 in my F150, had to pick up a Harley, and one trip of 2000 miles on my motorcycle. Don't see why owning a car that does better on long trips I don't take is very important. I would look at what benefits me most for my situation and that would be a Volt over a Cmax/Fusion hybrid or Energi. It is nowhere near game over, it's just your irrational hate of GM. Just because the Volt only sits four is a weak argument. I can take my F150 Super Crew the few times and that kind of argument would mean my motorcycle is owned by a hybrid. Not likely. Trying to dismiss the Volt because it doesn't do as well on long trips or doesn't seat 5 is pathetic, get a real argument to support your point. If you think I'm just a GM lover, guess again. I have an 08 Mustang GT and my wife has an 07 Fusion besides the F150. I would consider a Cmax/Fusion hybrid for my wife as she has a long commute and no chance of plugging in at work. Don't think the Energi model would be a better choice, but I haven't seen any real world results for it. It would spend too much time on gas and may as well save the cost difference and spend it on gas instead of a little electric. Time will tell though. so now you need to own TWO cars when one could suffice...costs just keep esculating as needs change, interesting spin though.... Not sold on the volt as once the electric is depleted its mileage is substandard to say the least, NOT a well rounded vehicle, and base on you not needing to utilize the gas then perhaps you would be better off with a Leaf or the like...I too am not sold on the Energi models if rear space is sacrificed, then again i havent seen the rear... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I would submit that their sales expectations were wildly optimistic bordering on fantasy. For the Volt as configured? Undoubtedly so. But for a plug-in hybrid, period? Maybe not. They botched most everything about the Volt. Committed to an impractical powertrain architecture, committed to an impractical cabin layout, and committed to enough unique bits that they had to set the sales price at an impractical level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Most of the Volt buyers that live near me and there are lots of them have the Volt as second car, are retired, and live well in nice houses with Volt sitting in garage most of time, charged up, and used for most part for daily errands and probably never or seldom visit gas station. Makes perfect sense to me. Nice ride, looks great, a premium car for most part, and perfectly fine with another couple going along. Add in the great lease offers, and vehicle really makes sense for many customers with certain lifestyle, money to spend on second car, and consider themselves environmentalists. A guy just a few blocks away runs an auto repair shop, has his Volt sitting out everyday being charged at the side of his shop. I doubt if he visits gas station much. Drives to shop, recharges at his shop, and off again using electric only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 For the Volt as configured? Undoubtedly so. But for a plug-in hybrid, period? Maybe not. They botched most everything about the Volt. Committed to an impractical powertrain architecture, committed to an impractical cabin layout, and committed to enough unique bits that they had to set the sales price at an impractical level. yet they are selling well here due to insane lease deals....crazy....so, a car they take a loss on being subsidized to sell...witness the GM way. Sidebar, friend left here to go to a chevy store ( hated the management team we had here ) , was interesting...he HATES their lineup, only thing he said was worth a crap was the pickups, and must say, even being open minded I can see his point, GM seems totally LOST..the only thing even semi interesting to me is part of their cadillac lineup...ATS is rather nice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Most of the Volt buyers that live near me and there are lots of them have the Volt as second car, are retired, and live well in nice houses with Volt sitting in garage most of time, charged up, and used for most part for daily errands and probably never or seldom visit gas station. Makes perfect sense to me. Nice ride, looks great, a premium car for most part, and perfectly fine with another couple going along. Add in the great lease offers, and vehicle really makes sense for many customers with certain lifestyle, money to spend on second car, and consider themselves environmentalists. A guy just a few blocks away runs an auto repair shop, has his Volt sitting out everyday being charged at the side of his shop. I doubt if he visits gas station much. Drives to shop, recharges at his shop, and off again using electric only. no doubt it makes sense to some people , but my train of thought is this, anything 2 miles away I'll buy running shoes, anything around 60 return i'll buy an electric car, long trips i'll buy a hybris, seating I'll buy an Expedition, towing I'll buy a......if you get my drift, what Im trying to say is that to a majority, spending $30k on a car thats once out of its electric range starts getting substandard mileage limits its overall usabilty...to me a car 47/47 is a far better compromise and sans the STUPID loss leader lease deals chevy is utilizing I beleive sales numbers would/ will reflect that...the C-max is an all around better COMPROMISE as a main vehicle.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Most of the Volt buyers that live near me and there are lots of them have the Volt as second car, are retired, and live well in nice houses with Volt sitting in garage most of time, charged up, and used for most part for daily errands and probably never or seldom visit gas station. Makes perfect sense to me. Nice ride, looks great, a premium car for most part, and perfectly fine with another couple going along. Add in the great lease offers, and vehicle really makes sense for many customers with certain lifestyle, money to spend on second car, and consider themselves environmentalists. A guy just a few blocks away runs an auto repair shop, has his Volt sitting out everyday being charged at the side of his shop. I doubt if he visits gas station much. Drives to shop, recharges at his shop, and off again using electric only. So the Volt demographic you're seeing is mostly retired, well off people who lease Volt so it can mostly sit in the garage and just do occasional trips to the shops without needing fuel... That sounds like the EV side of the equation is more in use than the Extended range part and if it comes down to just occasional short hops to the shops, then I'd suggest C-Max energi would probably do just as well in that role.. Come to think of it so too would Fusion energi... Edited October 11, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 in nice houses with Volt sitting in garage most of time, charged up, and used for most part for daily errands ... Makes perfect sense to me. You're going to build a business case for a $40k compact based on selling it to wealthy retirees who will use it to drive to the hair salon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) You're going to build a business case for a $40k compact based on selling it to wealthy retirees who will use it to drive to the hair salon? ahh, the 40k golfcart......maybe they are allowed to take them on the course...little hard if its cart path only.... Edited October 11, 2012 by Deanh 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) Only if it has discounts and very attractive leasing... Sounds like people are leasing Volt for ideological reasons it's an expensive occasional EV. Edited October 11, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 (edited) If those Volt buyers had a nice hybrid to lease for even less, the fuel costs on those short hop trips would be more than covered... so the Volt myth is being furthered by people able to access what seems to be low priced leasing.... Great news for Ford C-Max....100e mpg rating: LOL, even Detnews is calling Volt an extended range plug in hybrid.... Ford Motor Co.'s new C-MAX Energi plug-in hybrid has received an Environmental Protection Agency-certified fuel-efficiency rating of 100 miles per gallon equivalent. The 100 mpge (108 city and 92 highway) tops the Chevrolet Volt, at 98 mpge, and the Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid, which gets 95 mpge. Electricity is not measured in gallons; a conversion factor is used to translate the fuel economy when running on electricity into miles per gallon of gasoline equivalent. The combined mpge estimate includes a mix of gasoline and electric energy use. The base C-MAX Energi, priced at $29,995 after a federal tax credit of $3,750, will roll out nationally early next year. The 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid costs $32,760 and qualifies for a $2,500 federal tax credit. The 2013 Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid has a retail price of $39,995 and qualifies for a $7,500 federal tax credit. Ford's C-MAX Energi gets 20 miles of driving range in electric-only mode, compared to 11 for the Prius. The new Volt — technically a range-extended plug-in hybrid — gets 38 miles. Overall driving range, combined with gasoline and electric-only mode, favors the Energi (550 miles) and Prius (540) over the Volt (380). From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitne...7#ixzz291almExu Edited October 11, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Volt buyers think they're getting some kind of new technology. I wonder what they'd say if they knew the technology was 100 years old and used in locomotives since the late 40s? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Volt sales are taking off in Southern California (go figure). The thing that is selling them is the ability to commute a fair distance without the need for gasoline. The plug-in Prius is in the game too, but the average range on electric power is significantly less than the Volt. The plug-in hybrid has a certain advantage in this area when you consider how many people commute, and consider how much gasoline is wasted idling in traffic. In addition, many hybrid vehicles are allowed unrestricted use of the carpool lanes. That's a big selling point. The Volt is compromised, no question. It is based on an existing platform, and it is expensive. The thing is the Volt is very much a first generation design, and I am told GM has some good patents its technology. It will be interesting to see what develops from here. Could be a big advantage for GM in regards to CAFE in the future, given that this technology will eventually find its way into many other vehicles over time. And with the increase in volume, it's a safe bet the price will come down. I'll give GM some credit, the Volt has had a good launch so far with regards to recalls and reliability. Someone did their homework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Volt sales are taking off in Southern California (go figure). The thing that is selling them is the ability to commute a fair distance without the need for gasoline. Well, that and mammoth discounts that turn the Volt into, basically, an advertising write-off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.