Ford weight savings....where?

[RichardJensen]

From my dad: "There goes _____ in that car he's always wearing."

[FordBuyer]

The issue of unnecessarily high curb weights among products in the compact and midsize sedan segment afflicts Chrysler and GM as well. As with the obesity epidemic among American people, the problem of overweight cars from U.S. based automakers in particular will take a bit of time to resolve.

 

I would imagine you have to add a lot of extra structure to auto seats now to deal with American's weight gains where 300 pound people is not that unusual anymore as they drink their 70 ounze big gulp sodas. It's pretty wild out there noticing people so morbidly overweight. Has to be hard on the vehicles that get them around town. I don't see vehicle weights coming down that much anymore since Americans just keeping getting bigger as in adding more weight. I never thought humans could weigh 500-1,000 pounds, but news stories everyday prove my view wrong. Just the other day a special HazMed unit had to extract a 700 pound woman out of a Warren, MI apartment and transport her to a hospital. They actually had to remove the doorwall and part of the drywall with it to extract her.

[Harley Lover]

The upcoming EPA fuel economy regs can also contribute to vehicles with longer wheelbases and wider footprints. The fuel economy regs for each vehicle (the class into which it will be placed) will be determined by the "footprint" as measured by its track width and wheelbase. By increasing wheelbase (as Ford has done here) and perhaps widening the stance, automakers can reduce the vehicle's mpg target by a few mpg.

[FordBuyer]

I always see a very large women driving around in the smallest car you can find...I remember back in the early 1990s at Denny's watching a very large woman fit herself into a Festiva in the parking lot.

 

Now that is not a pleasant sight to say the least. A newer phenomena around here is young women weighing so much as in probably at least 250 pounds as you see them walking in groups into bars and restaurants. And many times they do seem to come out of compact cars. I hope Ford really reinforces the Focus seats to handle that extra weight. Extra large portion sizes at restaurants are really getting bad. I know my girlfriend and I now often share a meal as they give us too much to eat if we each order dinner. Same with appetizers if we do decide on an interesting one...we will share one, not each get one. Save money and calories. Very rarely do we get dessert, and if we do, we share one dessert. And it really helps if you learn how to shop for healthy food and eat lots of fresh vegetables and fruits. Not sure what happened to common sense anymore.

[PREMiERdrum]

Now that is not a pleasant sight to say the least. A newer phenomena around here is young women weighing so much as in probably at least 250 pounds as you see them walking in groups into bars and restaurants. And many times they do seem to come out of compact cars. I hope Ford really reinforces the Focus seats to handle that extra weight. Extra large portion sizes at restaurants are really getting bad. I know my girlfriend and I now often share a meal as they give us too much to eat if we each order dinner. Same with appetizers if we do decide on an interesting one...we will share one, not each get one. Save money and calories. Very rarely do we get dessert, and if we do, we share one dessert. And it really helps if you learn how to shop for healthy food and eat lots of fresh vegetables and fruits. Not sure what happened to common sense anymore.

 

[FordBuyer]

 

Thanks for the free advertising there Premier, and for Detroit in general, home of Ford, GM, Chrysler, and a slew of automtive suppliers from around the world, and major research, engineering centers for scores of auto manufacturers other than domestics. We will be thinking of you as U of M battles "Ohio" next month. First we have to put the Yankees out of their misery this afternnoon. And remember, Ford is number one brand in Metro Detroit, and Fusion is number one nameplate, and Fusion for first time next year will be made in Metro Detroit. Good reason for you Ohio people to buy one.

[RichardJensen]

Heavy duty seat frames are not going to add significantly to the weight of a vehicle! Think!! How much do seats weigh?????

Edited October 18, 2012 by RichardJensen

[Biker16]

Heavy duty seat frames are not going to add significantly to the weight of a vehicle! Think!! How much do seats weigh?????

 

front seat can wiegh as much as 90 lbs. remember airbags are in the seat. too.

 

I have no idea how Mazda got the 6 to Weigh less than the Mazda3.

[RichardJensen]

Airbags go directly to the point about safety equipment adding weight.

[aneekr]

home of Ford, GM, Chrysler, and a slew of automtive suppliers from around the world, and major research, engineering centers for scores of auto manufacturers other than domestics.

 

...and acknowledged home of one of my favorite automotive oriented sites - BlueOvalNews.com.

 

At the bottom of the website is this statement: Powered by BlueOvalNews.com Dearborn, Michigan U.S.A. - the hometown of the Ford Motor Company.

[Versa-Tech]

Heavy duty seat frames are not going to add significantly to the weight of a vehicle! Think!! How much do seats weigh?????

It not just the seat. Any [quality] passenger vehicle design is packaged from the seat, out. The humans inside should always be considered the primary design constraint. The size of the passenger not only requires a larger (heavier) seat, but a stronger heavier floor-pan to support the seat, heavier seatbelts and brackets, bigger doors to fit through- which compromise the geometry of the entire frame structure, requiring more steel. Fatter legs (and bellies) require more dash and console (IP) clearance, compromising the geometry of central structural bracing- requiring more steel to maintain a specific rigidity (Degree of flex/ Newton-meter). Furthermore, assuming that the human(s) are seated (relatively speaking), over the vehicles lateral axis (ideal center of gravity parallel to the contact surface) , and that the drivetrain has a higher mass density (heavier per cubic centimeter) than said human(s), then the longer interior space forces the heaviest parts of the vehicle further out from the center of rotation and requires heavier EVERYTHING to keep the car sorted under any type if accel or deceleration (especially lateral) while maintaining a specific performance mark.

 

 

As a general rule of thumb, a front-engine sedan requires roughly 3 lbs of car per one pound of passengers (at 80% occupancy) to function properly and meet market demands.

 

So, that extra 50 lbs per person (x4 passengers) adds roughly 600 lbs to an american car without compromising performance.

 

 

 

 

[jpd80]

A serious weight increase occurred with redesign of Taurus, IIRC it was around 300 lbs and centered around increased body strength,

Our local Falcon took a similar hit in 2002 with introduction of the much stronger car, scoffed at by GM who in turn introduced its own

equally heavy Zeta Commodore in 2006. Once manufacturers set their go forward platforms, you can bet weight reduction will start.

It takes a while to realign product cycles to more recent CAFE objectives, hence the call a few years ago for long term regulations

so manufacturers are able to map out their strategies well in advance of tightening limits.

Edited October 18, 2012 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

As a general rule of thumb, a front-engine sedan requires roughly 3 lbs of car per one pound of passengers (at 80% occupancy) to function properly and meet market demands.

 

So, that extra 50 lbs per person (x4 passengers) adds roughly 600 lbs to an american car without compromising performance.

Where did these numbers come from?

 

And I might add that the 600lb increase you postulate accounts for 100% of the weight increase from the '86 Taurus to the comparably sized '13 Fusion? (100ft³ + 17ft³ trunk, 3,050lb curb weight vs 102f³ + 16ft³, 3650lb curb weight) which means that all the additional NVH insulation, all of the additional seals, all of the additional safety bracing, and all of the higher strength steel, all the extra electronics and all the additional wiring are basically free?

[Fgts]

A bit off topic here looking on how many trucks the and full-size cars domestics sell compared to the imports also effects mid-size weights and engine choices as well. I notice while the Fusion and Regal/ Malibu are still not as quick as the v-6 imports (the v6 Avenger is a bit faster then the turbos but not as quick as the imports) with the full-size cars having 300-400 hp they don't have to be thanks to the new CAFE that allow larger cars/trucks to have big engines within a certain wheelbase.

 

Examples 14' Impala 203 in but 303 hp v-6, the upcomming Chevy SS/Caprice 203 in' but 300-415+hp, Taurus 203 in' but 290-365 hp (and i doubt it will shrink for the next genaration) Charger 200 in' and 290-470 hp. While yes the US mid-size cars need to be lighter and more competitve the domestics will invest heavy for thier trucks and big cars now CAFE has been re-written and that's where the money at still even with $4 gas.

[Versa-Tech]

 

Where did these numbers come from?

 

And I might add that the 600lb increase you postulate accounts for 100% of the weight increase from the '86 Taurus to the comparably sized '13 Fusion? (100ft³ + 17ft³ trunk, 3,050lb curb weight vs 102f³ + 16ft³, 3650lb curb weight) which means that all the additional NVH insulation, all of the additional seals, all of the additional safety bracing, and all of the higher strength steel, all the extra electronics and all the additional wiring are basically free?

The ratio (though rough) assumes that the vehicle architecture, materials, production processes, and market are controls. Otherwise, it applies to two vehicles designed by the same team, using equally efficient technology, to meet the market demands of the time. The only variables are the mass and volume of the passengers. You're example has no controls, being a car designed and built a quarter of a century earlier, by a completely different set of people, with far less efficient technology, different materials, using an antiquated architecture, suited to appeal to the market of the time.

 

A better real world example would be a 2013 Fusion and a 2013 Taurus with similiar equipment, performance, and safety.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Versa-Tech

[aneekr]

...all of the higher strength steel

 

Increased use of HSS and AHSS (e.g., HSLA, dual phase, martensitic, etc.) in automobile body structures should result in decreased mass. World Steel Association estimates a 25% mass reduction potential to the body in white and 9% reduction potential to overall vehicle mass if AHSS is used in place of conventional (ferritic) mild steel.

Edited October 19, 2012 by aneekr

[RichardJensen]

The ratio (though rough) assumes that the vehicle architecture, materials, production processes, and market are controls

If all those things are 'controls', it couldn't possibly be a 'general rule'.

 

Further, if those things are 'controls' it is thoroughly improper to use that 'general rule' as an explanation for why vehicle weights have increased *over time*.

[RichardJensen]

Increased use of HSS and AHSS (e.g., HSLA, dual phase, martensitic, etc.) in automobile body structures should result in decreased mass.

If it's replacing conventional steel.

 

However (and I should've phrased this better), it's being added to vehicles, to provide better crash protection. So it's increasing mass *less* than conventional steel, but still increasing mass.

[Versa-Tech]

Okay, this might be a better illustration.

 

Let's say you have a Fusion, equipped with a 2.0L EB engine that produces 1 horsepower for every 14 pounds of weight unoccupied, or 1 horsepower for every 17 lbs of weight at 80% occupancy. I'm assuming roughly 200lb per passenger average, any way you want to cut it.

This is our control.

 

Now, you also have a Taurus with a 2.3L EB engine that also produces 1 horsepower for every 14 pounds unoccupied. If the vehicle is carrying 4 passengers (80% capacity) weighing roughly 250lbs on average, it also produces 1 horsepower for every 17 pounds of weight.

 

Both vehicles have the same interior ammenities.

Both vehicles achieve 5 star crash test ratings.

Both vehicles achieve the same NVH standards.

Both vehicles accelerate and brake within the same benchmark, exhibit comparable roll characteristics, and achieve comparable lateral acceleration.

 

With >260hp, the Fusion weighs 2600lbs unoccupied, 3400lbs with 800lbs of passengers.

 

With >300hp, the Taurus weighs 4100 lbs unoccupied, 5100lbs with 1000lbs of passengers.

 

Now, the Taurus only has an extra 200 lbs of passengers, yet 700 lbs of extra mass occupied. That's an extra 500lbs of vehicle weight to achieve the exact same performance benchmark.

 

The only variable here that isn't reflective of the exact real world specs of the 2 cars is the engines, which were ammended (slightly) to make for simple math in the power to weight ratio. Otherwise, this example reflects the exact specifications of the 2013MY Fusion and the 2013MY Taurus as they are built and sold today.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Versa-Tech

[Deanh]

Increased use of HSS and AHSS (e.g., HSLA, dual phase, martensitic, etc.) in automobile body structures should result in decreased mass. World Steel Association estimates a 25% mass reduction potential to the body in white and 9% reduction potential to overall vehicle mass if AHSS is used in place of conventional (ferritic) mild steel.

what happened to the "nano" steel that was the topic of convesation a while ago?....

[Versa-Tech]

 

If all those things are 'controls', it couldn't possibly be a 'general rule'.

 

Further, if those things are 'controls' it is thoroughly improper to use that 'general rule' as an explanation for why vehicle weights have increased *over time*.

Okay, I see your point. Let's just say it's a good tool for estimating increases in mass do to increased passenger load when whiteboarding a new platform.

[RichardJensen]

Okay, I see your point. Let's just say it's a good tool for estimating increases in mass do to increased passenger load when whiteboarding a new platform.

Of course, it's an open question whether the Taurus was designed for four 250lb people (which seems a bit much), vs. 200lbs in the Fusion.

 

But I do see where you're coming from as in, "This is our passenger/cargo/payload/towing spec, about how much power and how much weight are we looking at"

[aneekr]

what happened to the "nano" steel that was the topic of convesation a while ago?....

 

Are your referring to the Rhode Island based metals firm NanoSteel Company, Inc.?

 

General Motors did a round of investment into the company in August and Bob Lutz joined NanoSteel's board of directors last week.

[Versa-Tech]

 

Of course, it's an open question whether the Taurus was designed for four 250lb people (which seems a bit much), vs. 200lbs in the Fusion.

 

But I do see where you're coming from as in, "This is our passenger/cargo/payload/towing spec, about how much power and how much weight are we looking at"

Exactly.

[RichardJensen]

And I think it's fair to say that the multiplier has changed more over the past 10-15 years than the, for lack of a better term, live load.