Lincoln to be Renamed?

[RichardJensen]

As someone who's never met me or even seen me in person

I don't have to meet you to recognize when you're basically inverting the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, and if being persistently contrary doesn't make you feel good about yourself, what other reason could possibly exist for your conduct?

[jpd80]

I get back to those 80% of Ford dealerships interested in a Lincoln franchise, those dealers must be confident in both sales and servicing projection

which leads me to think that Ford is going to have to offer these future Lincoln dealerships seriously good products to keep them interested.

I know there's a big difference between expressing willingness to purchase a Lincoln franchise and actually doing it but there seems to be

a lot of confidence out there with dealerships...surprising after all of the hardships a lot of them went through just a few years ago.

[ZanatWork]

I'm pretty good at cheering Ford when things are worth cheering, and have done so here...so your little summation is a steaming pile of BS.

 

My conduct, as stated clearly and repeatedly, is frustration with Lincoln's stagnation as an "entry lux" line which is both an insult to Lincoln and an insult to fans of the late Mercury...which used to occupy the spot just above Ford.

 

It's annoying and frustrating when Ford is taking strides elsewhere...but has dropped the ball with Lincoln repeatedly. You've been here for some years, you KNOW what I'm talking about.

 

Which makes your summation, along with your treatment of some people on here with legit criticisms of Ford lately, more statements about YOUR recent contrary nature.

 

I don't have to meet you to recognize when you're basically inverting the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, and if being persistently contrary doesn't make you feel good about yourself, what other reason could possibly exist for your conduct?

[RichardJensen]

I'm pretty good at cheering Ford when things are worth cheering

And that's patently circular reasoning.

[RichardJensen]

more statements about YOUR recent contrary nature.

Complaining about QC issues: legit.

 

 

Arguing that the Volt and Alpha platforms are good ideas, when GM's FE in general, their hybrid program in particular, and their trucks especially, are well behind the curve: not legit.

[akirby]

So...not being able to see the real effects of the bodywork, feeling the interior materials and their interplay withing the car, the solidity (or lack thereof) in the controls...and, or course, the ride quality, the handling, and the interplay of the drivetrain within a whole new platform?

 

So if all of those things are better than the Fusion will you admit that Lincoln is doing something different?

 

Somehow I think you'll just find some other excuse not to like it.

[RichardJensen]

Somehow I think you'll just find some other excuse not to like it.

On further consideration, that's not the opposite form of the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy, that is the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy, phrased negatively, rather than positively.

Edited October 24, 2012 by RichardJensen

[jpd80]

It was only 12 months ago that Ford realized that Lincoln needed dedicated top hats, a separate design studio and a styling chief that knew what was needed.

 

That is like a "We need a bigger boat" moment....

Edited October 24, 2012 by jpd80

[ds91776]

The MKS has a different tophat. The MKT has a different top hat. The 2013 MKZ has a different top hat. The 2006 Zephyr had a mostly different top hat. And stop saying "Ford just realized" this and that. Ford has always known that making Lincoln more unique would be good for it. The issue has been the health of the company, formulating a plan, the time it takes to impliment that plan, and creating a team to get it done. Ford couldn't afford a unique Zephyr for 2006...so it didn't make one. Ford could afford it for 2013...so it did. Ford is a much healthier company in every sense and thus can realize a better plan for Lincoln than it could have over the past 10-15 years.

[akirby]

What some people either fail to realize or simply don't want to acknowledge is that up until last year Ford was not fully committed to making Lincoln a successful separate brand. From 2000-2005 they were pursuing PAG and Lincoln was the red-headed stepchild (no offense to red headed stepchildren). Then Ford was fighting for its life and put all of its resources into the Ford brand. Only recently did they decide to make the same investment in Lincoln and they decided to start with a support team and dealership improvements rather than put all of their money and resources into some halo car.

 

It's not sexy but it's a long term plan and that has the best chance of long term success.

[ZanatWork]

I talked up the Volt and Chevy trucks when, exactly?

 

I think you're mistaking me for someone else on those, sparky. In fact, I'd dearly love to see anything I've said on either topic. I make fun of the Volt far and wide.

 

Check your notes, then you get to admit your mistake.

 

Complaining about QC issues: legit.

 

 

Arguing that the Volt and Alpha platforms are good ideas, when GM's FE in general, their hybrid program in particular, and their trucks especially, are well behind the curve: not legit.

[jpd80]

The MKS has a different tophat. The MKT has a different top hat. The 2013 MKZ has a different top hat. The 2006 Zephyr had a mostly different top hat. And stop saying "Ford just realized" this and that.

Look at the door openings between CD3, D3 and CD4 originators and their Lincoln counterparts, they're all shared, the differences in some are not enough.

And stop pretending that Ford had a continuous plan for Lincoln, that's why they hired Max Wolff, they don't know luxury, that's why he's there and Horbury isn't.

People spotted straight away that the 2013 MKZ shares door openings with itd Fusion brother so a decision on different top hats wasn't done at inception.

And it was only at Wolff's request that Ford set up a separate styling studio....I am one of Ford's biggest fans but when it comes to Luxury brands they just don't know.

 

Ford has always known that making Lincoln more unique would be good for it. The issue has been the health of the company, formulating a plan, the time it takes to impliment that plan, and creating a team to get it done. Ford couldn't afford a unique Zephyr for 2006...so it didn't make one. Ford could afford it for 2013...so it did.

It still shares the door openings with Fusion, the first thing Max Wolff noticed after the hideous nose they were going to use..

It was only an 11th hour save by Max Wolff that made the car as stunning as it now is.

 

Ford is a much healthier company in every sense and thus can realize a better plan for Lincoln than it could have over the past 10-15 years.

Agreed and now that Lincoln has a design centre, a chief who understands Luxury branding, someone like Farley who knows how to market quality merchandise

and whole raft of great Ford originator vehicles rolling down the pipeline, things are going to go a lot easier for Lincoln.

Edited October 24, 2012 by jpd80

[ZanatWork]

I've seen little evidence that you DO think, expecting a full range of sensory experiences from photos.

 

I call 'em like I see 'em. Hell, I admit to being a fan of both the MKT and the Flex. Obviously, I'm not in it for the popularity.

 

I'm glad Lincoln is up vs. last year...but on every forum, every Facebook post about Lincoln, and among car people I talk/post with...the current (meaning, available for purchase) lineup is too obviously a full-line rebadging for the most part. Add to that, the Navigator was dead last in essentially every compared category last time it got any real attention from Ford...like the Expedition its based on, though the Expy fares better as there are less monster-power SUVs in its class.

 

I want years and years and YEARS of rhetoric about making Lincoln a "global luxury brand" and similar statements to mean more than grille swaps on same-profile vehicles. This isn't unreasonable, especially after far too many years of assurances that Lincoln was going to get moved upmarket.

 

You can make all the dumb, inaccurate, and worthless statements about what you "think" (har!) about my take on Lincoln...but if you don't recognize the years of frustration and irritation involved, you're as clueless as your posts imply.

So if all of those things are better than the Fusion will you admit that Lincoln is doing something different?

 

Somehow I think you'll just find some other excuse not to like it.

[ZanatWork]

I've only been following the Ford ups and downs since the Reagan years...I think I got that memo.

 

However...maybe you missed all the times Lincoln was supposedly being "prioritized" and had a "new plan going forward" over that time....

 

What some people either fail to realize or simply don't want to acknowledge is that up until last year Ford was not fully committed to making Lincoln a successful separate brand. From 2000-2005 they were pursuing PAG and Lincoln was the red-headed stepchild (no offense to red headed stepchildren). Then Ford was fighting for its life and put all of its resources into the Ford brand. Only recently did they decide to make the same investment in Lincoln and they decided to start with a support team and dealership improvements rather than put all of their money and resources into some halo car.

 

It's not sexy but it's a long term plan and that has the best chance of long term success.

[ZanatWork]

This from the man who apparently isn't sure which topics I've actually posted about?

 

In all the years I've posted here...there's been plenty of "happy posts". You've been around long enough to know this, so why you're trying to just paint me as purely negative...well, it's just stupid and working with fiction.

 

And that's patently circular reasoning.

[silvrsvt]

I am one of Ford's biggest fans but when it comes to Luxury brands they just don't know.

 

It still shares the door openings with Fusion, the first thing Max Wolff noticed after the hideous nose they were going to use..

It was only an 11th hour save by Max Wolff that made the car as stunning as it now is.

 

I don't know about that...I think the wording of the article a couple months on upcoming MKZ was done very poorly...what he described was more or less the pre-2012 MKZ to a Tee..not the new 2013 MKZ.

 

If anything, the '13 MKZ was showed that Ford already knew what it had to do and just the grill was tweeked by Max when he came aboard.

 

The 2013 is a good indication of where Ford was going with Lincoln and bringing Max onboard shows that they'll do even better with upcoming products.

[jpd80]

I'm gonna sign off now because the crossfire from ZanatWork and akirby and Richard is much more entertaining

than my annoying ramblings on a subject that I'm not that passionate about..

Thanks for reading my posts guys and don't take too much to heart....

Edited October 24, 2012 by jpd80

[BORG]

Man that incompetent Forbes article keeps rearing its ugly head. Max updated the grille on the 2013 MKZ, and that's about all. What you see now is what has been in place for years before Max. J. Mays confirmed that the horizontal grille was Max's contribution to the design. It's impossible to make a boxy 2013 Fusion reskin. It'll be interesting to see what Max does with Lincoln with a clean sheet of paper.

 

And Lincoln has been a marginal luxury brand since the 70's, I haven't lived in an era when it wasn't rebadging Fords. Lincoln is still a much better brand now than it has been in my 30+ years of living...but it's not keeping pace with the competition and that's where I think Lincoln is not focusing it's attention. Right now it's trying to be a better and more coherent and sustainable Lincoln, but it doesn't care about what's happening around it which may be good or bad. I tend to think it's a good thing, assuming they have something unique to offer.

Edited October 24, 2012 by BORG

[SoonerLS]

If anything, the '13 MKZ was showed that Ford already knew what it had to do and just the grill was tweeked by Max when he came aboard.

The important thing is not that he "tweaked" the grille, it was that Ford let him move hard points to do it. That says not only that they have enough sense to trust the guy they poached to do the job they hired him to do, but also that they have the commitment to follow up on what he's doing. Adding in the new Lincoln Design Studio and the move to re-brand Lincoln to be on the same corporate level as Ford (at least in name), plus the Lincoln-exclusive features in the current (as in the only one being produced now, not the one that has been out of production for months) MKZ--and let's not forget their commitment to bring out seven new models over the next few years--and you already have a level of commitment that Ford has not shown to Lincoln in all their previous hand-waving and lip service attempts to "renew" Lincoln.

 

It is patently obvious that Ford has made the commitment to move Lincoln forward; that's no longer the question. The real question now is whether or not they can execute well enough to succeed. If the "current" MKZ is as good as it is expected to be, it is definitely a good first step on the road to success.

[Stentgraft95]

Pardon my naiveté but for some reason (and this is not intended to fan the flames) but I thought Max had more today with the fact that a different shell was used. Or was that a decision made by Ford prior to Max coming on board?

[SoonerLS]

Pardon my naiveté but for some reason (and this is not intended to fan the flames) but I thought Max had more today with the fact that a different shell was used. Or was that a decision made by Ford prior to Max coming on board?

My understanding was that Max's only substantial contribution to the MKZ was the rework of the nose (which was substantial, given what he was allowed to do); by the time he came aboard, the rest of the car was too far along for him to make much impact.

Edited October 24, 2012 by SoonerLS

[akirby]

However...maybe you missed all the times Lincoln was supposedly being "prioritized" and had a "new plan going forward" over that time....

I'm glad Lincoln is up vs. last year...but on every forum, every Facebook post about Lincoln, and among car people I talk/post with...the current (meaning, available for purchase) lineup is too obviously a full-line rebadging for the most part.

 

I want years and years and YEARS of rhetoric about making Lincoln a "global luxury brand" and similar statements to mean more than grille swaps on same-profile vehicles. This isn't unreasonable, especially after far too many years of assurances that Lincoln was going to get moved upmarket.

 

You're calling the 2012 MKZ the "current" one even though it's out of production and the 2013 is in production and I'm the one who's clueless?

 

I understand the skepticism that Lincoln is just flapping their gums about making changes like they've done in the past. But this is where your cluelessness kicks in again. You are completely ignoring the changes that Ford has made this time around that has us convinced it will be different. There is no guarantee it will be successful, but it is NOTHING like what Lincoln has done in the last 30 years. Let's recap:

 

Hired a dedicated Lincoln designer with a dedicated staff of 150 people with experience from other luxury brands to oversee the turnaround

Required dealers to provide a unique Lincoln dealership experience including separate showrooms and concierge like service

Committed to 100% unique sheetmetal and interiors and features and unique drivetrain options

Sold Jaguar, Aston Martin and Land Rover and killed Mercury leaving Lincoln as the only other Ford brand

Committed to a 7 vehicle lineup for Lincoln

Developed Lincoln unique features (push button shifter, electronic suspension, adaptive LED headlamps, etc.)

 

Combine all that with a NEW management team that has totally turned around the Ford brand and I don't see how any reasonable person would conclude they're doing the same old same old.

 

Please enlighten us as to when the above changes were attempted by Lincoln in the past.

[RichardJensen]

I talked up the Volt and Chevy trucks when, exactly?

This in reference to your comments about how I've been cruelly mistreating OTHER people on the board viz:

 

along with your treatment of some people on here with legit criticisms of Ford lately

[RichardJensen]

there's been plenty of "happy posts"

Link to the five most recent.

 

And saying that you cheer stuff worth cheering for is the very definition of circular reasoning.

[campbell53]

I have serious reservations about the 80% Ford dealers willing to build stand alone Iincoln stores. There was such push back on modifying existing buildings to suit Lincolns new standards that most of it was scrapped. No one from Ford asked me but that the dealer body just suddenly rolled over for a $1m+ investment in Lincoln sounds sketchy. I do, however, have reservations about this so called name change. Is this just an excuse to call it a 'new' franchise and therefore weed out franchise points they don't like? The Lincoln meeting next month in Las Vegas just got a whole lot more interesting.