Lincoln to be Renamed?

[timmm55]

 

The current MKZ does better, but it's another obvious tarting-up.

 

 

 

 

What is your definition of "tarting-up"? This isn't a f%^%king rebadge. Platform sharing, yes.....just as Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Audi, Cadillac and most everyone else, in fact, does it.

 

I'm sick of this double standard for Lincoln, especially when it's based on past models, not current/future models. Unlike the past MKZ no body panels are shared. Styling interior and exterior is unique.

 

This a Ford website, if that (it's not a rebadge) isn't clear here, what's the general public going to think? With the general stupidity exhibited by Jeopardy! contestants to foreign luxury cars, will Lincoln ever get a fair shake even with a whole new line up?

[rmc523]

What is your definition of "tarting-up"? This isn't a f%^%king rebadge. Platform sharing, yes.....just as Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Audi, Cadillac and most everyone else, in fact, does it.

 

I'm sick of this double standard for Lincoln, especially when it's based on past models, not current/future models. Unlike the past MKZ no body panels are shared. Styling interior and exterior is unique.

 

This a Ford website, if that (it's not a rebadge) isn't clear here, what's the general public going to think? With the general stupidity exhibited by Jeopardy! contestants to foreign luxury cars, will Lincoln ever get a fair shake even with a whole new line up?

 

Maybe I'm incorrect, but I believe he was referring to the 2012 model MKZ in that particular statement.

[2b2]

I'm focused on the "wow, another rebuilding plan for Lincoln" babble, and-note this-"what's actually happened".

 

I'm not going to assign the new MKZ any awards until something besides show cars and "test mule spy shots" are out there.  Is it attractive?  Absolutely....well, I'm not a huge fan of the grille, but that's not changeable right now.  How does it drive, how does it feel, especially when compared to its sibling?

 

Those bits aren't in, yet.

 

Until then...the MKS is constantly beaten up (and usually selling poorly) as too close to the Taurus.  The current MKZ does better, but it's another obvious tarting-up.  The MKT is beloved to few (although I have a backward affection for it, admittedly), and the Navigator was worst-in-class in most categories when last updated.

 

This is NOT impressive.  No amount of excuses will change that.

 

I am mad at Ford for killing Mercury, I've never lied about that...and I'm angrier still that the dead marque-and the first car brand I ever knew or loved-is basically being clumsily mimicked by the division that was supposed to be well upstairs from them.  The sins that supposedly killed Mercury are being committed by Lincoln, and it's a less-interesting division, historically.

 

If my frustration is hard for some to fathom, I find people being fine with Lincoln's mediocrity to be at least as puzzling.

 

[akirby]

Maybe I'm incorrect, but I believe he was referring to the 2012 model MKZ in that particular statement.

 

That's what he was trying to say but since the 2012 is no longer made and the 2013 is then I would argue that the 2013 is the current MKZ.

 

Either way it's a stupid reference because we're talking about Lincoln's future direction, not what they did 4 years ago.

[SoonerLS]

Maybe I'm incorrect, but I believe he was referring to the 2012 model MKZ in that particular statement.

If so, it completely cuts the legs out from under his own his argument. You can't make an argument about the future of Lincoln (or any company) based on a defunct product, and the current MKZ and its predecessor have very little commonality.

[akirby]

You can't make a logical argument about the future of Lincoln (or any company) based on a defunct product, and the current MKZ and its predecessor have very little commonality.

 

FTFY. He's pissed off they killed Mercury so I doubt he would like anything Lincoln did short of adding a waterfall grille.

[rmc523]

If so, it completely cuts the legs out from under his own his argument. You can't make an argument about the future of Lincoln (or any company) based on a defunct product, and the current MKZ and its predecessor have very little commonality.

 

Yes, I know - I tried to point that out in my last post directed toward him.

[hbalek]

One of last weeks Jeopardy questions... "Honda created this luxury brand in the 80's"...one person replied with 'Ultima"...really? No one got it correct... Granted, these aren't people that we can disqualify and say they are stupid when obviously they are in that game show, but there are just some people who dont know, or care. These are probably consumers that just buy something according to the price and if it's pretty, and thats its.

 

It's true! Some people are oblivious. My brother-in-law has driven BMW's for most of his life and my sister has an Audi and I had to tell them one day they were both German cars and which one was front or rear drive. They just knew they were driving a well-regarded brand! They're both impressed with my Lincoln but made snide remarks about it being an old man's car.

[Stentgraft95]

It's true! Some people are oblivious. My brother-in-law has driven BMW's for most of his life and my sister has an Audi and I had to tell them one day they were both German cars and which one was front or rear drive. They just knew they were driving a well-regarded brand! They're both impressed with my Lincoln but made snide remarks about it being an old man's car.

 

I’ve got the same thing thrown at me with my Lincoln of it being perceived as “an old man car”. This was coming from a 26 year old engineer I work with who happens to drive a 4Runner. I made an attempt to defend it from that title by trying to explain that it’s an LS benchmarked off the 3 series BMW and that I could understand that comment if I was driving a Town Car. My attempt at deflection had no impact.

[OHV 16V]

If you want to kill Lincoln, just rename it Booth, it's worked in the past...

[calypsocoral]

So, a tweak of the brand name and separate, distinct dealerships, eh?

 

Does that mean Lincoln no longer has to worry about cannabalizing top-trim Mustang sales if they introduce a Coupe?

 

Use the 2015 Mustang as a starting point, add a distinct, understated sleek-and-sexy (think Jaguar or Aston Martin) Lincoln exterior and interior design. Then give it some premium powertrain options, including some "alternative" options for the guilty, rich white people, like a Hybrid with a Lithium Polymer battery. I'm thinking 2.0L and 3.5L EcoBoost for the standard powertrains, instead of the 3.7L and 5.0L NA powertrains, for example. Voila!

 

A Long-Wheelbase version can be a raked-out 4-door GT.

 

As for SUV's and CUV's, I believe the Navigator should remain truck-based, albeit finally given a worthy update, including the 3.5L EB powertrain. The Aviator, on the other hand, can migrate to the Explorer's chassis, with a 5-passenger "Equator" (pronounced "Eck'-wah-ter", maybe?) built on a CUV version of the Fusion chassis (I forget what that is now-- CD4?), to compete with the likes of the Lexus RX. C2 should remain a Ford-specific chassis, to reinforce Ford's global cachet of dynamic compacts.

 

I don't see the harm of having ONE Ford-based sedan in the lineup-- and that should be a stretched version of the current MKZ-- sort of like what Acura (for a time) successfully did with their TL and what Lexus has successfully done with their ES. It should successfully supplant both the MKZ and MKS, leaving room at the top for a flagship luxury sedan.

 

Yeah, I know, I can already hear you all screaming "but Full-size flagship sedans don't sell that well anymore." This is true, and I'll concede that point. But, as I see it, such a vehicle assists perception of a brand as a true Lux marque. Try picturing Mercedes as a Luxury brand without the S-Class. Or Jaguar without the XJ-Type. Or Audi without the A8. Or BMW without the 7 Series. Or (yes, I'll go there) Lexus without the LS. Kinda hard to do, in my opinion, and without those models, it would be harder for me to perceive those brands as much more than an Acura or Infiniti (Okay, I guess it'll still work for BMW and Jaguar).

 

And further down the road-- maybe a compact coupe/roadster a la BMW Z3? Who knows-- If Lincoln successfully improves their image, it will be a lot more fun to imagine the possibilities!

[rmc523]

So, a tweak of the brand name and separate, distinct dealerships, eh?

 

Does that mean Lincoln no longer has to worry about cannabalizing top-trim Mustang sales if they introduce a Coupe?

 

Use the 2015 Mustang as a starting point, add a distinct, understated sleek-and-sexy (think Jaguar or Aston Martin) Lincoln exterior and interior design. Then give it some premium powertrain options, including some "alternative" options for the guilty, rich white people, like a Hybrid with a Lithium Polymer battery. I'm thinking 2.0L and 3.5L EcoBoost for the standard powertrains, instead of the 3.7L and 5.0L NA powertrains, for example. Voila!

 

A Long-Wheelbase version can be a raked-out 4-door GT.

 

As for SUV's and CUV's, I believe the Navigator should remain truck-based, albeit finally given a worthy update, including the 3.5L EB powertrain. The Aviator, on the other hand, can migrate to the Explorer's chassis, with a 5-passenger "Equator" (pronounced "Eck'-wah-ter", maybe?) built on a CUV version of the Fusion chassis (I forget what that is now-- CD4?), to compete with the likes of the Lexus RX. C2 should remain a Ford-specific chassis, to reinforce Ford's global cachet of dynamic compacts.

 

I don't see the harm of having ONE Ford-based sedan in the lineup-- and that should be a stretched version of the current MKZ-- sort of like what Acura (for a time) successfully did with their TL and what Lexus has successfully done with their ES. It should successfully supplant both the MKZ and MKS, leaving room at the top for a flagship luxury sedan.

 

Yeah, I know, I can already hear you all screaming "but Full-size flagship sedans don't sell that well anymore." This is true, and I'll concede that point. But, as I see it, such a vehicle assists perception of a brand as a true Lux marque. Try picturing Mercedes as a Luxury brand without the S-Class. Or Jaguar without the XJ-Type. Or Audi without the A8. Or BMW without the 7 Series. Or (yes, I'll go there) Lexus without the LS. Kinda hard to do, in my opinion, and without those models, it would be harder for me to perceive those brands as much more than an Acura or Infiniti (Okay, I guess it'll still work for BMW and Jaguar).

 

And further down the road-- maybe a compact coupe/roadster a la BMW Z3? Who knows-- If Lincoln successfully improves their image, it will be a lot more fun to imagine the possibilities!

 

That's what the MKX already is?

[calypsocoral]

That's what the MKX already is?

 

Hah! Yeah, I guess so! I forgot all about that thing!

 

Maybe that should tell us something...

[ZanatWork]

Err...so the CD4 is the "current MKZ"? As in, you can buy one, it's in dealers?

 

That would be no. Again, I'm dealing in realities.

 

The new one hasn't even had a production-model test yet. The Fusion is barely getting them, and the rear headroom is getting unfortunate attention...so that may already be a "new MKZ" issue...but back to reality...

 

...the "current MKZ" is the one actually in your Lincoln dealer, and its Fusion origins are obvious. Even if the upcoming model manages to convey an entirely different experience...well, the "luxury marque of Ford" will have created something for the Buick/Acura/Lexus ES crowd to consider. That's one step above typical Fords...and it seems to me that there was a brand that did that just fine for decades...

 

...while the "luxury brands" played up the ladder. I'm still right, Lincoln is only a squishier Mercury until Ford gets serious with the brand. If they won't get serious, then call it what it basically is: Mercury.

 

If Ford gets genuinely serious about Lincoln and backs the endless "re-do of Lincoln" rhetoric with true luxury offerings...it'll finally get Lincoln out of the entry-lux segment and thus will no longer be the "squishier Mercury". I would genuinely celebrate that...but it's been supposedly in the works for years and years.

 

That's what he was trying to say but since the 2012 is no longer made and the 2013 is then I would argue that the 2013 is the current MKZ.

 

Either way it's a stupid reference because we're talking about Lincoln's future direction, not what they did 4 years ago.

[RichardJensen]

I would genuinely celebrate that.

Because conditioning approval makes you discerning, and sophisticated.

[akirby]

Err...so the CD4 is the "current MKZ"? As in, you can buy one, it's in dealers?

 

That would be no. Again, I'm dealing in realities.

 

The new one hasn't even had a production-model test yet. The Fusion is barely getting them, and the rear headroom is getting unfortunate attention...so that may already be a "new MKZ" issue...but back to reality...

 

...the "current MKZ" is the one actually in your Lincoln dealer, and its Fusion origins are obvious. Even if the upcoming model manages to convey an entirely different experience...well, the "luxury marque of Ford" will have created something for the Buick/Acura/Lexus ES crowd to consider. That's one step above typical Fords...and it seems to me that there was a brand that did that just fine for decades...

 

 

The 2013 MKZ is already in production and is the only one on the Lincoln website. Ignoring it just to make your point is disingenuous.

 

If you think the Lexus ES is not a worthy target then you obviously haven't looked at sales figures. And if you think the 2013 MKZ is anything at all like previous Mercuries then I don't know how to attempt any type of logical discussion with you.

 

Sounds like you think anything short of bespoke platforms is a failure.

[silvrsvt]

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2012/10/23/will-ford-kill-lincoln/

 

Ford has seen several brands come and go over the years, including Edsel, Merkur and even Continental, which was marketed as a standalone nameplate for several years before being brought under the Lincoln umbrella. Could one of these monikers return from the dead in order to bring some life back into the division?

Or maybe one that’s even older.

When The Ford Motor Company, as it is officially known, purchased Lincoln from Henry Leyland in 1922 it was similarly called the Lincoln Motor Company.

At the Sao Paulo auto show on Monday, IHS Automotive Director of Research Rebecca Lindland met up with Farley and ran the old name by him. He told her that the three pillars to Lincoln’s resurgence were product, dealers and rebranding, and that the company needs to “stand on its own,” agreeing that calling it the Lincoln Motor Company would be “one way to do that.”

But will it happen?

Farley simply answered, “stay tuned.”

[ZanatWork]

Awww...a personal hack from someone supposedly keeping order hereabouts.

 

How totally unfit for the job you appear to be, Richard. I thought you were above such behavior!

 

Please, please, tell me more about myself! As someone who's never met me or even seen me in person, I bet you're just a treasure trove of informed opinions!

 

Or, a hypocrite who's been something of a transparent s**t to anyone criticizing the Blue Oval. Not everyone can be sheeple.

 

Because conditioning approval makes you discerning, and sophisticated.

[ZanatWork]

You're dodging my questions, like any good lying politician would. 'Tis the season!

 

It may be the one on the site, but it's not the one that can be touched or-God forbid!-driven. So, claiming to have serious informed opinions of your own about it are likely utter and complete lies.

 

Such a failure in a person.

 

If the MKZ's tests come back hailing it as truly its own car, I'll help myself to some crow...it won't be the first time. However, until Lincoln DOES really separate itself with deeper improvements and uniqueness...I'm right. Lincoln remains a squishier Mercury until then.

The 2013 MKZ is already in production and is the only one on the Lincoln website. Ignoring it just to make your point is disingenuous.

 

If you think the Lexus ES is not a worthy target then you obviously haven't looked at sales figures. And if you think the 2013 MKZ is anything at all like previous Mercuries then I don't know how to attempt any type of logical discussion with you.

 

Sounds like you think anything short of bespoke platforms is a failure.

[silvrsvt]

If the MKZ's tests come back hailing it as truly its own car, I'll help myself to some crow...it won't be the first time. However, until Lincoln DOES really separate itself with deeper improvements and uniqueness...I'm right. Lincoln remains a squishier Mercury until then.

 

Sounds like Lincoln has to hit some impossibly high bar you have set for it for you to admit that you where wrong....

[NickF1011]

Sounds like Lincoln has to hit some impossibly high bar you have set for it for you to admit that you where wrong....

 

Maybe they should ask for rebadging rights from Rolls Royce.

[akirby]

You're dodging my questions, like any good lying politician would. 'Tis the season!

 

It may be the one on the site, but it's not the one that can be touched or-God forbid!-driven. So, claiming to have serious informed opinions of your own about it are likely utter and complete lies.

 

Such a failure in a person.

 

If the MKZ's tests come back hailing it as truly its own car, I'll help myself to some crow...it won't be the first time. However, until Lincoln DOES really separate itself with deeper improvements and uniqueness...I'm right. Lincoln remains a squishier Mercury until then.

 

If you can't see the improvements and uniqueness without touching it and driving it then once again you're just ignoring the obvious to make your point.

 

I don't see what a test drive will tell you that you can't already tell.

[ZanatWork]

So...not being able to see the real effects of the bodywork, feeling the interior materials and their interplay withing the car, the solidity (or lack thereof) in the controls...and, or course, the ride quality, the handling, and the interplay of the drivetrain within a whole new platform is supposed to come out in a picture?

 

Absolutely the dumbest thing I've read today...and I remind you that the 'net is full of debate coverage, so that's saying something.

 

If you can't see the improvements and uniqueness without touching it and driving it then once again you're just ignoring the obvious to make your point.

 

I don't see what a test drive will tell you that you can't already tell.

[ZanatWork]

Is not being a "squishier Mercury" impossibly high? Seems to me that true luxury marques pull it off time after time.

 

Oops, gosh, there's my whole point, obvious and all...sadly, I'm sure it still gets missed.

 

Sounds like Lincoln has to hit some impossibly high bar you have set for it for you to admit that you where wrong....

[jpd80]

Do you know what this reminds me of?

2006, when Ford told everyone it was going to remake itself as an affordable quality car maker and fix all of its quality problems.

A lot of people were extremely skeptical, heard it all before and what makes Ford think they can change the way people see the brand?

Well they did but it took a long time, dedication of senior management and a couple of product cycles to do it... and great products too..

 

Lincoln IMO is in the same situation. there has been so many attempts to lift Lincoln that even ardent supporter are more than a little skeptical.

But signs that should give us hope are the hiring of Max Wolff and his suggestion/insistence on a separate design facility and the final realization

by Ford that Lincoln vehicles need unique top hats. You cannot have your premium brand styled by a Ford team, that doesn't work, the conflict of

interest inherently sways the design back towards the minimum changes needed, something that conflicts with the uniqueness of a premium brand..

 

I don't consider the 2013 Lincoln a true example of the new Lincoln plan, it was conceived during a time when Ford thought it could still share passenger shells

with Lincoln and just heavily revise the panel work and trim. Even Max Wolff's styling touches were effectively 11th hour stuff so not really an example of his work.

And this is the frustrating thing, Lincoln is going to evolve, not make a quantum jump as so many expect after seeing what GM is doing by spending billions on Cadillac.

So those who are wanting to score card Lincoln year by year are going to be a little disappointed by the long winded change, something necessary when controlling costs,

 

The fact that 80% of Fords dealerships are prepared to sign up to stand alone Lincoln franchises and showrooms says that there is great confidence in Lincoln's future,

especially by the people who stand to make or lose the most, the dealers. maybe we should take a leaf from their book and stick with the evolving Lincoln for a while longer.

Edited October 23, 2012 by jpd80