Motor Trend's 2013 Car Of The Year

[AGR]

The worldview in which Tesla appears revolutionary is a worldview which discounts the billions that a company like Ford (or Toyota, or GM, or Daimler, or VW) spends annually on R&D

If any car company can do what Tesla does, why are least TWO of the companies you mentioned going to Tesla to design the drivetrains and battery systems for their electric cars?

[fordmantpw]

The rest of your lengthy post is nothing but a Tesla bash/hatefest, but this part is stupid. Would you compare the performance of an M5 to a compact van if they were both gas-powered? No, of course you wouldn't.

 

What exactly is the point of building an electric car if it isn't efficient? Why not just drop in a big honking V8 with nearly comparable performance and fewer compromises...for a whole helluva lot more money?

[buddysystem]

If any car company can do what Tesla does, why are least TWO of the companies you mentioned going to Tesla to design the drivetrains and battery systems for their electric cars?

I agree with most of what FordBuyer suggested in his original post. I was inspired to learn more about Tesla and Musk. The guy has balls and no shortage of drive (PayPal, Tesla, SpaceX, Solar City and he's only 41). What I'm curious about is what Ford thinks about this car, company, and achievement? Toyota seems impressed. I gotta think that Ford will buy one, Mullaly will drive one. Will it inspire them? Could Lincoln do this? What will the Tesla mass market car look like and cost? What influence will the supercharger infrastructure have? Just curious.

[akirby]

I agree with most of what FordBuyer suggested in his original post. I was inspired to learn more about Tesla and Musk. The guy has balls and no shortage of drive (PayPal, Tesla, SpaceX, Solar City and he's only 41). What I'm curious about is what Ford thinks about this car, company, and achievement? Toyota seems impressed. I gotta think that Ford will buy one, Mullaly will drive one. Will it inspire them? Could Lincoln do this? What will the Tesla mass market car look like and cost? What influence will the supercharger infrastructure have? Just curious.

 

Other than styling and the size of the battery pack - how is this any different than a Focus electric?

 

Take a Ford GT - remove the ICE, add a huge battery pack and an electric motor at each wheel and some software to control it all and you have the same vehicle.

[aneekr]

I gotta think that Ford will buy one, Mullaly will drive one. Will it inspire them?

 

Yes. The technical excellence displayed by Tesla Motors' products and technologies is inspiring. Mr. Mullally, with his own engineering background, must certainly be impressed. I wouldn't be suprised if he has already driven either a Tesla Roadster or Model S.

[akirby]

Yes. The technical excellence displayed by Tesla Motors' products and technologies is inspiring. Mr. Mullally, with his own engineering background, must certainly be impressed. I wouldn't be suprised if he has already driven either a Tesla Roadster or Model S.

 

What "technical excellence"? It's much easier to build an electric vehicle than it is to build a parallel hybrid. Build a sleek sports car body. Drop in a huge battery pack and some electric motors - all off the shelf parts. What technological innovation has Tesla brought to the table?

[buddysystem]

Other than styling and the size of the battery pack - how is this any different than a Focus electric?

 

Take a Ford GT - remove the ICE, add a huge battery pack and an electric motor at each wheel and some software to control it all and you have the same vehicle.

 

Really?

 

It's differrent in that they designed the car around the battery pack and the electric motor components, even used it as part of the structure, rather than converting a Focus platform to be an electric car. This was partially done with the Volt. Take a look at the manufacturing videos on the Tesla site and you'll see some of the integrated design components such as the rear wheel drive subframe, the battery floorpan etc. It was designed from the outset as an electric car. I understand that Ford is leveraging existing platforms rather than dedicated hybrid or electric models but they do result in packaging compromises, primarily in the luggage compartment.

[aneekr]

What "technical excellence"? It's much easier to build an electric vehicle than it is to build a parallel hybrid. Build a sleek sports car body. Drop in a huge battery pack and some electric motors - all off the shelf parts. What technological innovation has Tesla brought to the table?

 

System integration is where Tesla's technological innovation is most prominent. An EV like the Model S is much more than the sum of the parts (which are not all 'off the shelf', incidentally). Specific areas where the company excels include: designs for battery cell cathode geometry and cell casings; approaches for managing active cooling of the battery pack; several tenets of power electronics design including power, charge, and thermal management software, packaging, and magnetic flux phasing; and integration between AC induction motor and gearbox.

[aneekr]

What exactly is the point of building an electric car if it isn't efficient? Why not just drop in a big honking V8 with nearly comparable performance and fewer compromises...for a whole helluva lot more money?

 

The AC induction motor in the Model S averages 87% efficiency. What 'big honking V8' (or any internal combustion engine for that matter) comes anywhere close to that?

[akirby]

Really?

 

It's differrent in that they designed the car around the battery pack and the electric motor components, even used it as part of the structure, rather than converting a Focus platform to be an electric car. This was partially done with the Volt. Take a look at the manufacturing videos on the Tesla site and you'll see some of the integrated design components such as the rear wheel drive subframe, the battery floorpan etc. It was designed from the outset as an electric car. I understand that Ford is leveraging existing platforms rather than dedicated hybrid or electric models but they do result in packaging compromises, primarily in the luggage compartment.

 

I didn't say it wasn't different. But just because it's different doesn't make it "technically excellent" or better than other vehicles.

 

Creating a parallel hybrid where the wheels can be driven by the electric motor or the ICE or BOTH and the parts to do that plus the software to make it work seamlessly and return 47 mpg or better is a huge technical achievement worthy of awards. I don't think Tesla invented the battery technology they use or the electric motors and there isn't anything new with the controls so I'm having a hard time figuring out what Tesla did here that any other car company couldn't do if they wanted to.

[RichardJensen]

Yes. Tesla does well with battery pack design.

 

But the rest of this stuff? The rest of it is automotive engineering 101.

 

Making a part of the 'powertrain' a stressed member of the chassis? Old hat.

 

Lowering the center of gravity? Old hat.

 

Styling? Very very old hat.

 

ALL ALUMINUM SUSPENSION!!!! Old hat.

 

Touch screen interface. Old hat.

 

Name one thing that the Tesla does that has never been done before.

[RichardJensen]

I was inspired to learn more about Tesla and Musk.

Do some research. PayPal was an accident, and all of his other ventures are losing money hand over fist.

[FordBuyer]

Really?

 

It's differrent in that they designed the car around the battery pack and the electric motor components, even used it as part of the structure, rather than converting a Focus platform to be an electric car. This was partially done with the Volt. Take a look at the manufacturing videos on the Tesla site and you'll see some of the integrated design components such as the rear wheel drive subframe, the battery floorpan etc. It was designed from the outset as an electric car. I understand that Ford is leveraging existing platforms rather than dedicated hybrid or electric models but they do result in packaging compromises, primarily in the luggage compartment.

 

The Model S is not only a five seater that the BOF Mafia loves, but behind the rear seats for aduts are two more seats that can be turned around to seat two small children. And cargo room up front and in back. Using Tesla propietary Super Charging System, the top of line Model S can be charged up in less than an hour.

[akirby]

Using Tesla propietary Super Charging System, the top of line Model S can be charged up in less than an hour.

 

Now that would qualify as a technical achievement.

[RichardJensen]

two more seats that can be turned around to seat two small children.

Wow. I'm really surprised no one else has thought of that before.

Using Tesla propietary Super Charging System, the top of line Model S can be charged up in less than an hour.

Again. Tesla is hardly the only company working in this field: http://www.abb.com/product/seitp332/a0b7275bea656b16c1257903004abf65.aspx?productLanguage=us&country=US

[twintornados]

...Again. Tesla is hardly the only company working in this field: http://www.abb.com/p...e=us&country=US

That don't look like no Tesla.....

 

[twintornados]

The Model S is not only a five seater that the BOF Mafia loves, but behind the rear seats for aduts are two more seats that can be turned around to seat two small children. And cargo room up front and in back. Using Tesla propietary Super Charging System, the top of line Model S can be charged up in less than an hour.

FordBuyer is the first in line to get his "Tesla Mafia" t-shirt to sport when he is out and about in the center of the universe...aka, Metro Detroit. :hysterical:

[RichardJensen]

That don't look like no Tesla.....

Point being: Acting like Tesla is revolutionizing the industry--and is thus entitled to leeway for their horrible balance sheet--is unjustified.

 

And even apart from that, losing money while making a car few can afford and even fewer want is hardly something worth rewarding.

[FordBuyer]

A nice article on why Tesla won the award. More complete than most. A truly breathtaking auto in so many ways, and even innovative way of selling them.

 

Click here: Why Tesla Is the Next Apple Stock (AAPL, TSLA)

[RichardJensen]

Umm. When it said that the MT COTY award is the 'Academy Award of Autos' I stopped.

 

Anyone that mistaken about the industry cannot be trusted to offer an opinion about any company participating in it.

 

Any article you see suggesting that Tesla is going to 'change the industry' also displays a stunning lack of awareness of the industry itself. One Seeking Alpha article goes so far as to suggest that Tesla may be able to effect a change in 'how cars are sold'. Please.

[FordBuyer]

Let's see now...Jensen has never test driven a Model S, is not a road test driver meaning he doesn't drive hundreds of different new vehicls and get great sense of how one may be better than others, and then sits up there and judges whether vehicle is special or not. So far, every experienced road tester that has driven the Model S has been blown away by it. I have not driven it either, but I will defer to those who have and their credentials and experience. I hope to someday drive an EV as nice as the Model S and get a sense what it's like to drive an electric like that with all that instant torque and quietness. Even driving a Volt would be kind of cool. Again, I would take a Model S over a loaded BMW 5 Series.

[RichardJensen]

I don't need to rob a bank to know that theft is wrong, and I don't need to drive a Model S to see the flaws in Tesla's business plan.

[retro-man]

Geez Richard, Elon Musk did what to your sister now? The car is stunning. It's magnificent. Tesla is not going to become the next Ford or Toyota - but they are serving a function that Ford or (to a lesser degree) Toyota can't or won't do. They are absolutely advancing the state of the art. Not only that, they are taking something that could be wonky (Prius) and making it aspirational. Tesla has made electric cars exciting. You're not the Birkenstock type? Fine, put on your Ferragamos and let's dance! All this talk about the balance sheet ..... leave that to the investors. A lot of people - Nikola Tesla himself - have advanced the state of their art greatly, yet died broke. That's not the point. Something is brought into the world that makes the others sit up and take notice. Has the Apollo program paid for itself yet? I'm thinking not. Does that mean we shouldn't have gone? I'm thinking not. We've talked about Wright before: he was a shameless self promoter - a huckster in the great 19th century tradition. His buildings cost triple what they were supposed to. The roofs leaked. He left a trail of human wreckage behind him - but look at the gift he left the world in his buildings, and the influence he had not only on the profession, but on the built environment as a whole.

[RichardJensen]

As I've gotten older, I've become less enamored with visionaries, promoter, hucksters, and the like---those who succeed wildly and inspire religious devotion among their followers (Phil Knight, Steve Jobs), or those who fail wildly (JZD, Elon Musk--probably).

 

You mentioned the Apollo program. I'm glad you did. On July 20, 1989, Neil Armstrong was patching his driveway. He declined a request to be interviewed by a local news station. I can respect that. In fact, I have outright admiration for that.

 

You also mentioned Frank Lloyd Wright. To this day, I regret that the state of South Dakota frittered away a chance to hire Wright to design a hotel in the Black Hills. But the state did build the Needles Highway and the Iron Mountain Road. http://southdakotama...n-mountain-road Why mention that? Because the guy who laid it out wasn't interested in establishing a name for himself, or making a fortune, or changing the world.

 

Yet--what he did with those two highways is every bit as impressive as what Wright did at Fallingwater.

Edited November 16, 2012 by RichardJensen

[FordBuyer]

As I've gotten older, I've become less enamored with visionaries, promoter, hucksters, and the like---those who succeed wildly and inspire religious devotion among their followers (Phil Knight, Steve Jobs), or those who fail wildly (JZD, Elon Musk--probably).

 

You mentioned the Apollo program. I'm glad you did. On July 20, 1989, Neil Armstrong was patching his driveway. He declined a request to be interviewed by a local news station. I can respect that. In fact, I have outright admiration for that.

 

You also mentioned Frank Lloyd Wright. To this day, I regret that the state of South Dakota frittered away a chance to hire Wright to design a hotel in the Black Hills. But the state did build the Needles Highway and the Iron Mountain Road. http://southdakotama...n-mountain-road Why mention that? Because the guy who laid it out wasn't interested in establishing a name for himself, or making a fortune, or changing the world.

 

Yet--what he did with those two highways is every bit as impressive as what Wright did at Fallingwater.

 

So that means you hate Henry Ford also, right? He basically killed his son, pissed off his wife regularly with his mistress, alienated his grandkids, got rid of the original investors, refused to change to the times so that Edsel had to drag him into 20th century kickin gand screaming, try to deal with his many prejudices, and even the $5/day idea he became famous for was not his idea. We won't even get into his hiring Harry Bennet, a hoodlum, and his antics. With all his many character flaws that became worse as he aged, he is still probably most influmential man of the 20th Century and left a very impressive legacy. Elon Musk walks in his footsteps as I don't see any other than maybe Steve Jobs who greatly changed society that much. Musk has redefined the luxury car with is Model S. And he will do it again with the Model X next year now that he will have billions of dollars of revenue coming in from the Model S next year.