'13 MKZ Review by Edmunds

[ZanatWork]

Unfounded negativity for the sake of negativity doesn't, no. Go fish in some other pond for that one.

 

Honestly haven't seen any of that. My posts had examples and supportive facts. That was somehow inexcusable.

[ZanatWork]

If you would like to get a two week suspension, please continue to attack me personally.

 

...or just keep posting anything but sun-shiny stuff about Lincoln. That can be all it takes.

[Hugh]

Honestly haven't seen any of that. My posts had examples and supportive facts. That was somehow inexcusable.

If you want to pound your chest and cry how wronged you were Zan, go back to FIN. We already disagree on the MKZ and I supported my points. You paint it like you were shouted down by fanboi junk. That is incorrect. Your points have been countered and we are at attrition. Agree to disagree and move on.

[ZanatWork]

In keeping with my newfound focus on enjoying this forum, as opposed to arguing with those who cannot be persuaded, and whose use for logic ends when it stops supporting their opinions, let me say merely this:

 

I disagree with FordBuyer, aneekr, and Zan.

 

FordBuyer is under restrictions because he repeats himself and contributes little to the forum besides opinions which we are by now all familiar with, and Zan was suspended for two weeks for unleashing a torrent of abuse at other members.

 

That's how they carry themselves on this forum.

 

Just so you know.

 

Actually, that's not true. I wasn't banned, specifically, until I chatted with Richard and was able to show that my "Lincoln/Mercury" observations weren't mine alone. It was right after that point that I got banned...NOT right after any specific "abuse".

 

The rules are shaky at best.

[RichardJensen]

There are three of us that handle bans, Zan. Your name was in circulation before you PM'ed me, and the ban didn't kick in until there was consensus.

 

And trust me, there was consensus.

[ZanatWork]

If you want to pound your chest and cry how wronged you were Zan, go back to FIN. We already disagree on the MKZ and I supported my points. You paint it like you were shouted down by fanboi junk. That is incorrect. Your points have been countered and we are at attrition. Agree to disagree and move on.

 

...and if you're going to treat my posting that way, you're hardly any great example of behavior yourself.

 

The MKZ has gotten some glaringly bad reviews, some good reviews. and apparently had its handling aided by tires that may not be available from Lincoln...so if I'm unimpressed, and if the "Ford in expensive lipstick (again, John Phillips of C/D)" stigma is apparent to these different testers...my point was made, and backed pretty consistently. I have disagreements about the banning, but the points are legit...and hardly mine alone.

[RichardJensen]

you're hardly any great example of behavior yourself.

Here's a helpful hint Zan:

 

Your relentless negativity about Lincoln is not what got your banned. It was both your tendency to escalate and your incredibly abusive language.

 

Aneekr is as relentlessly negative about Lincoln and has not been banned. Think about it.

[Hugh]

...and if you're going to treat my posting that way, you're hardly any great example of behavior yourself.

 

The MKZ has gotten some glaringly bad reviews, some good reviews. and apparently had its handling aided by tires that may not be available from Lincoln...so if I'm unimpressed, and if the "Ford in expensive lipstick (again, John Phillips of C/D)" stigma is apparent to these different testers...my point was made, and backed pretty consistently. I have disagreements about the banning, but the points are legit...and hardly mine alone.

It doesn't work that way Zan and you know it. Getting your attention with a back-handed comment may be inappropropriate on my part. However, if you are questioning my behaviour on that statement is not the point. Look at your own quote of John Phillips. You have used a review to support your opinion, not fact. If the other reviews speak the same emotive responsives as 'not good enough' is hardly analytical. You have set yourself up for scrutiny and decided to brag about how right you supposedly are. I have read what you THINK Lincoln should have done. There are merits I agree with such as a RWD full-size sedan. That said, I counter with that's not in the cards now. Scuttlebutt about Lincoln interested in 2015 Mustang platform is grist for the rumor mill. I think you present opinion as fact in how others agree with your opinion must be fact as well. Common consensus is NOT fact. That's my point.

[LSFan00]

I'd just note that an "overly firm" ride in a review of this Lincoln, is not what was found in the mechanically similar Fusion, nor likely in the referenced Euro sedans that actually do, typically run out the door over 10K more than an MKZ.

 

If you drive a loaner 300 HP car fast for a few days you're gonna see sub-20 MPG whether it's a Subie, Lexus, Benz, BMW, Lincoln, or for that matter a 2.0T Buick Regal with 30 less HP.

[RichardJensen]

Of course they were quick to note the role that tires played in the handling, but not the ride quality.

 

See, that's my beef with reviewers like these.

 

The reviewer is striving for outrage, for the quotable zinger, for entertainment. But let anyone accuse him of providing mere entertainment..................................

[ZanatWork]

It doesn't work that way Zan and you know it. Getting your attention with a back-handed comment may be inappropropriate on my part. However, if you are questioning my behaviour on that statement is not the point. Look at your own quote of John Phillips. You have used a review to support your opinion, not fact. If the other reviews speak the same emotive responsives as 'not good enough' is hardly analytical. You have set yourself up for scrutiny and decided to brag about how right you supposedly are. I have read what you THINK Lincoln should have done. There are merits I agree with such as a RWD full-size sedan. That said, I counter with that's not in the cards now. Scuttlebutt about Lincoln interested in 2015 Mustang platform is grist for the rumor mill. I think you present opinion as fact in how others agree with your opinion must be fact as well. Common consensus is NOT fact. That's my point.

 

At some point, past does have to be seen as prologue...and Lincoln is "on life support" (at least one recent review, possibly MT, I've read a ton lately) because it can sell, as a division, less in a month than Ford sells Mustangs. The sales numbers are facts, the recent history with sub-par American auto brands is certainly points to a dark conclusion without some change to the game. The GAME HAS BEEN FAILING, or Lincoln wouldn't be in the trouble it's in.

 

Hence, it's not only fair but truly sensible to be unimpressed in the MKZ when so many familiar "gussied up Ford" comments come from different sources and the state of the brand is the focus of a growing number of columns that state the MKZ is "not enough". The pieces line up pretty well, but the wild card remains the buyer: will he/she be drawn to the car in the numbers hoped for/required...or not?

 

Until the buyers vote with their checkbooks, the indicators are very mixed, and many are far too familiar. I guess you can argue that those opinions are just opinions, and fine, that's yours...but the FACT remains that familiar issues are being cited, and the FACT is...those issues aren't really good news.

 

I'd be dishonest to pretend otherwise.

[ZanatWork]

Of course they were quick to note the role that tires played in the handling, but not the ride quality.

 

See, that's my beef with reviewers like these.

 

The reviewer is striving for outrage, for the quotable zinger, for entertainment. But let anyone accuse him of providing mere entertainment..................................

 

Could the history of "tweaks to test cars" in the industry possibly make the story a worthy one?

[papilgee4evaeva]

Does this mean that anyone else reviewing will bow to peer-pressure? Will other join the hate-fest because their sites will get more hits? I agree that Lincoln will be dragged through the mud because that's the way it is.

 

That's how it works.

[akirby]

For anyone who thinks bad reviews impact vehicle sales, just go check out Camry and Corolla.

[30 OTT 6]

Caddy knows what it takes to be a player.

[Hugh]

At some point, past does have to be seen as prologue...and Lincoln is "on life support" (at least one recent review, possibly MT, I've read a ton lately) because it can sell, as a division, less in a month than Ford sells Mustangs. The sales numbers are facts, the recent history with sub-par American auto brands is certainly points to a dark conclusion without some change to the game. The GAME HAS BEEN FAILING, or Lincoln wouldn't be in the trouble it's in.

 

Hence, it's not only fair but truly sensible to be unimpressed in the MKZ when so many familiar "gussied up Ford" comments come from different sources and the state of the brand is the focus of a growing number of columns that state the MKZ is "not enough". The pieces line up pretty well, but the wild card remains the buyer: will he/she be drawn to the car in the numbers hoped for/required...or not?

 

Until the buyers vote with their checkbooks, the indicators are very mixed, and many are far too familiar. I guess you can argue that those opinions are just opinions, and fine, that's yours...but the FACT remains that familiar issues are being cited, and the FACT is...those issues aren't really good news.

 

I'd be dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Alright fair enough. That said, I think there's way too much hype being built on this resurrestion version whatever. The band-wagon from the pundits is Lincoln sucks and that is an unfair assessment. Lincoln is no better or worse then the competition. The competiton is not agreed upon by the reviewers itself. This is plain mud-racking to gain hits on the blogs. The real question what Lincoln should be, you got the 'Homer' plain and simple.

 

The familiar issues you have sited is more grist for the hate-fest. Face it, the common issue here is that folks want Lincoln to fail unless it's their vision. It's ironic how Jalopnik hated the 'Panthers' now bemoan the demise. It's hypocracy carte-blanc. I call these reviewers more pundits then drivers. In other words, they want to look good on the television without a schmeck of qualification. Sure there's some of them that have some sense. However, looking for the past glory is a sure way to failure. The modern '61 wannabe was called 'Town Car'. That is lipstick on a Ford.

 

Yes folks will vote with the checkbooks and that remains the be seen. The beefs presented here was presented with ALL of the previous cars mentioned one way or another. It's plain bandwagon BS. Really? Seats too Narrow? Compared to Regal? 3-series? FWD biased...Whatever so is the ES. ES is bigger because it's based on Avalon not Camry. No space in the centre console now the gear shift is gone. Wow, talk about lame. Comfort setting floats...no kidding. Perhaps that's the old school Lincoln that's missing so they can hate it again after they launch their LMC provided lunch on the windshield.

 

I agree the buyers will decide. I'm seriously hoping folks have more sense to listen to this bombardment of crap being shilled as educated.

[ZanatWork]

There are three of us that handle bans, Zan. Your name was in circulation before you PM'ed me, and the ban didn't kick in until there was consensus.

 

And trust me, there was consensus.

 

Kinda iffy on trusting you this year, you've been quite a lot different than previously...and I've certainly been around long enough to tell a difference. Trust me.

 

I'm more than happy to discuss happier Ford news on threads with happier news to discuss. The MKZ's initial tests are worrisome, unless one subscribes to "car magazine x hates Ford" and "they all just hate Lincoln" mindsets.

 

C/D didn't like the MKZ in their preview test, but they have 2 Fords in their 10 Best list. I tend to think they're fairly impartial...and they showed that Audi, not BMW, wins the most comparison tests. Food for thought, conspiracy theorists.

[RichardJensen]

Could the history of "tweaks to test cars" in the industry possibly make the story a worthy one?

No.

 

If Ford has a history of tweaking test cars (which they don't: They shipped a beat up pre-production Ford Explorer to Motor Trend, a piece of trim fell off of it, Motor Trend trashed it repeatedly, made vague noises as though this would affect sales, and yet there it sits atop the fullsize SUV sales charts--but that's another matter entirely------or is it?).

 

Anyway, if Ford has a history of sending ringers to journos (which GM, at least, has been accused of on occasion), then you make that the subject of its own story. You don't mash in bits and pieces of that story with this one.

 

 

 

You can do one of two things:

 

You can write rambling pieces that touch on a variety of subject, incompletely, or you can be a professional journalist.

 

---

 

The proper way of handling this would be to note the positives and negatives that were likely associated with the performance tires, and note them along with the factory rep's acknowledgement that they sent out a ringer.

[Hugh]

C/D didn't like the MKZ in their preview test, but they have 2 Fords in their 10 Best list. I tend to think they're fairly impartial...and they showed that Audi, not BMW, wins the most comparison tests. Food for thought, conspiracy theorists.

I think because folks have their favorites plain and simple and Lincoln is not one of them. It's not European or Asian. It's not American enough or competitive enough. It will NEVER sastify anyone unless it's what THEY want and THEY can't agree on that. Yes Ford is a winner now because of the focus on the brand and putting out the product. I agree it's about the product. I agree with you Zan. What I don't agree is the Shit Lincoln is taking. It's not one of the others, it can't join in any Reindeer games, it will not be good enough. You say that enough times maybe folks will believe it. They'd be wrong though. Again, I don't think it's any different then ES, 328 (rwd is better in this case I admit however the push/pull/all driving style changes) and C280.

 

Speaking of tires, I think the All-seasons are standard is for SAFETY. You can upgrade (Tire Rack was posted here) or realize, you can't go hog-wild with this rubber. Guess What? You can't go hog-wild with ANY car with this rubber. That argument is irrelavent.

[RichardJensen]

Kinda iffy on trusting you this year, you've been quite a lot different than previously...and I've certainly been around long enough to tell a difference. Trust me.

This is a no-true-Scotsman statement, and it's asked-and-answered, and it all but accuses me of lying.

 

Here's how it works: "you've been quite a lot different than previously" is a 'no-true-Scotsman' statement, in that it relies on a word 'different' which you yourself get to define.

 

Secondly, "I've certainly been around long enough to tell a difference. Trust me" constitutes the classic 'asked-and-answered' rhetorical technique, where you outright foreclose the possibility of error. It goes nicely with the 'no-true-Scotsman' statement, as seen below:

 

"No true Scotsman would do such a thing, and you can trust me, because I'm a true Scotsman."

 

Finally, this statement: "Kinda iffy on trusting you", is little short of an accusation that I'm lying to you.

 

Please explain to me why I shouldn't be offended by this.

[ZanatWork]

In order to avoid hijacking the thread further...I'll just message it.

[FordBuyer]

To be fair, I would say that the new MKZ is not as bad as the worst reviews, and not as good as the cheerleaders say it is here. I guess the real question is it worth $50,000 in V6, AWD, retractable top form?. I would say probably not. And more than one reviewer has questioned the narrow, uncomfortable front seats and cramped interior. IMO, a better vehicle in FWD, 2.0EB form without heavy retractable top. Of course Lincoln is hoping for more orders for most expensive model, but I personally can think of a lot better alternatives in luxury car market for $50,000. Still not convinced that Ford understands luxury market just as William Clay Ford has never understood what it takes to win in NFL.

[BORG]

There is just zero positive momentum behind Lincoln, none at all even after the MKZ has been reviewed. It's almost universally hated and I'm not sure at what point that breaks beyond just selling a shit-ton of cars to change attitudes.

 

I have to agree with the critics on the interior materials not being on par, it's something I've noticed since it debuted, and it will probably be one of the reasons I pass on this one, especially at these prices.

Edited December 18, 2012 by BORG

[ZanatWork]

Really engineering then selling a s**t-ton of DEFINITIVE cars is what is being waited for, essentially demanded. The biggest step, the thing they need, is to make "Lincoln" mean something beyond its current perception.

 

Until that happens, all the money and added employees won't change anyone's mind. The MKZ was supposedly mostly done...so it's only a partial example of what's coming. There's room for hope, but also for pessimism.

Edited December 18, 2012 by ZanatWork

[FordBuyer]

There is just zero positive momentum behind Lincoln, none at all even after the MKZ has been reviewed. It's almost universally hated and I'm not sure at what point that breaks beyond just selling a shit-ton of cars to change attitudes.

 

I have to agree with the critics on the interior materials not being on par, it's something I've noticed since it debuted, and it will probably be one of the reasons I pass on this one, especially at these prices.

 

I believe these tepid to poor reviews prove it can't be done the way Ford is planning on doing it. Maybe the better dealership experience will win out, and I hope that is the case, and the new MKZ certainly looks luxurious on road, but it is overly heavy for midsizer and straight line performance is very mediocre for expensive, 300hp V6. Might was well just get the EB I4 FWD that is a lot lighter, more tossable, lot less expensive, and probably almost same acceleration numbers. I hope Lincoln sells a lot of those models.

Edited December 18, 2012 by RichardJensen
This is your 4th post. You have one more.