New Light & Medium Duty News

[GearheadGrrrl]

On 11/26/2023 at 10:13 PM, 7Mary3 said:

Interesting video, gives an idea how tough some of the older short-nose diesel trucks were to work on.  Amazing a Detroit 6-71 would fit in the N series, I heard the Cummins N series was even worse.

 

 

SOP for an in frame overhaul on those and the GM equivalent was to remove the cab, thus many were junked rather than rebuilt and by the 80s few were still on the road. The Louisville was a huge improvement with the taller tilt hood and cab, but still required some gymnastics to work on the back of the engine. Probably the best design was the Mack U model where they offset the cab to the left and Mack's engine was a bit more compact which helps too.

[iamweasel]

6 hours ago, Joe771476 said:

I'm seeing a lot of F-series flatbed tow truck mediums (650 or 750 I'm not sure) with Triple A motor club branding. Also, Gov. of CT just nixed the vote on 2035 EV mandate. Car mfrs. and govts. are slowly abandoning EV's.

 

Think I saw one the other day, too, and I believe it was a gas motor.....

[Bob Rosadini]

10 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

SOP for an in frame overhaul on those and the GM equivalent was to remove the cab, thus many were junked rather than rebuilt and by the 80s few were still on the road. The Louisville was a huge improvement with the taller tilt hood and cab, but still required some gymnastics to work on the back of the engine. Probably the best design was the Mack U model where they offset the cab to the left and Mack's engine was a bit more compact which helps too.

That is a unique N in the sense that grill piece was used on gas job N's up to 750-no shutters...850  and up gas were Super dutys and had shutters.  and for sure a 6-71 would be a 850/950 -D and have shutters .

The truck in that picture has the correct hood with the "DIESEL" letters on hood....Maybe a special order??  

I drove a N-950-D, (Ryder) 250 Cummins, RT-910 RR was I think a 66 or 77 with the high roof.  Was a nice driving truck and the cab was pretty quiet.  

As for maintenance, as 7M and GearH said, a nightmare. although dog house was pretty big...common for all those 90"BBC trucks of that era.  International 2000's had f'glass tilt hoods which also was an  option on White 9000's.  Dodge had swing out front fenders .

[7Mary3]

The Ford N 'borrowed' a lot from the 1960 GMC B series (not the school bus, the '60-'65 short conventional).  The GMC was a slightly better to work on, many used the 6V-71 Detroit and the fenders were very easy to remove.  In 1966 GMC came out with an all-new heavy duty short conventional that had a tilt hood if the truck was 6-71 or Cummins powered.  That truck eventually became the Brigadier.  I agree, the U series Macks were probably the best of the short-nose breed.  Some of the International Fleetstars and the Dodges with big Cummins power were miserable to work on, glad I never had to do touch them. 

 

The truck in the video is a little strange.  As Bob pointed out, it ought to be an N-1000D.  Might not have shutters as Detroits were more 'warm blooded' than Cummins (a reason why Detroits were such great bus engines, the heaters worked well).  Also I think 1967 was the first year Ford offered the 6-71, but I could be mistaken.

[Bob Rosadini]

I've commented more than once about Ford's  adds for light duty that NEVER show a medium duty at least in the background.  I always thought that would be a freeby plus...maybe by emphazing that Ford can build a "big truck" and also give the mediums some exposure, some might say.."well if they can build a big truck they should know what they are doing with a pick up".

 

Well New England Ford dealers have been running an add that is truly geared to the commercial market.  No campers, no boat haulers, every vehicle in the add is doing some work and the punch line is.."see your tax accountant to see how you might benefit by a new truck expenditure or words to that effect.  Then add closes with an image of all kinds of Fords set up for work..including two OAP mediums!  Shocker.  

Then again this is not a national Ford add...it is a New England Ford Dealers add.

[GearheadGrrrl]

Not surprising- Ford often fails to use the assets they have. Compare Ford's failures to Honda's car ads which introduce customers to the whole lineup of Honda products from quiet generators to side by sides! Ford has a whole armada of products to use as backdrops for the premier products, why not use them? But for a company that puts a red tractor behind an F series in an expensive ad, I don't expect much...

[ice-capades]

10 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

I've commented more than once about Ford's  adds for light duty that NEVER show a medium duty at least in the background.  I always thought that would be a freeby plus...maybe by emphazing that Ford can build a "big truck" and also give the mediums some exposure, some might say.."well if they can build a big truck they should know what they are doing with a pick up".

 

Well New England Ford dealers have been running an add that is truly geared to the commercial market.  No campers, no boat haulers, every vehicle in the add is doing some work and the punch line is.."see your tax accountant to see how you might benefit by a new truck expenditure or words to that effect.  Then add closes with an image of all kinds of Fords set up for work..including two OAP mediums!  Shocker.  

Then again this is not a national Ford add...it is a New England Ford Dealers add.

 

Agreed... or at least include some of the medium duty work trucks in the background of Super Duty advertisements. The year-end tax theme is a common reminder for business customers.

 

For those that are not aware, the regional FDAF's (Ford Dealer Advertising Fund) are funded by the dealerships with the advertising fee assessed and included in the vehicle invoices. The New England Ford Dealers FDAF does not include the part of Connecticut, about 1/3, which is part of the Tri-State Ford Dealers FDAF (NY, NJ, CT)

Edited November 30, 2023 by ice-capades
Typo

[Bob Rosadini]

12 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Not surprising- Ford often fails to use the assets they have. Compare Ford's failures to Honda's car ads which introduce customers to the whole lineup of Honda products from quiet generators to side by sides! Ford has a whole armada of products to use as backdrops for the premier products, why not use them? But for a company that puts a red tractor behind an F series in an expensive ad, I don't expect much...

Hah! The marketers that blessed the add with a Farmall in the background probably didn't know Ford was a powerhouse in tractors not that many years ago. As for Honda, agree...I grew up when a Briggs & Stratton was considered a better small engine..so my elders told me?..Today?  I own 8 small Honda powered pieces-usually start on first pull!  That Honda loyalty rubs off- if it wasn't against my religion I would be driving an Accord.

[Bob Rosadini]

3 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

Agreed... or at least include some of the medium duty work trucks in the background of Super Duty advertisements. The year-end tax theme is a common reminder for business customers.

 

For those that are not aware, the regional FDAF's (Ford Dealer Advertising Fund) are funded by the dealerships with the advertising fee assessed and included in the vehicle invoices. The New England Ford Dealers FDAF does not include the part of Connecticut, about 1/3, which is part of the Tri-State Ford Dealers FDAF (NY, NJ, CT)

Do the dealers have any input as to what those adds feature?  Or does the "big house" do it all.

The Chicago dealers have had some good ones....didn't they have the one in which two cops in a CV pull a kid in a hot Mustang over..then they take turns doing burnouts in the kid's car!

[akirby]

1 hour ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Do the dealers have any input as to what those adds feature?  Or does the "big house" do it all.

The Chicago dealers have had some good ones....didn't they have the one in which two cops in a CV pull a kid in a hot Mustang over..then they take turns doing burnouts in the kid's car!

Dealers do their own advertising.  They also manage their own regional rebates.

[ice-capades]

1 hour ago, Bob Rosadini said:

Do the dealers have any input as to what those adds feature?  Or does the "big house" do it all.

The Chicago dealers have had some good ones....didn't they have the one in which two cops in a CV pull a kid in a hot Mustang over..then they take turns doing burnouts in the kid's car!

 

The regional FDAF's (Ford Dealer Advertising Fund) have Dealers that serve on the regional FDAF Board or Committee, but potential advertising is not presented to the overall dealership body for approval. I don't remember if the FDAF Board or Committee makes the decision but the regional FDAF Chairman/President acts as the liaison with the advertising agency. The FDAF is independent from Ford advertising but must comply with Ford advertising requirements along with applicable State advertising regulations and disclosures.     

[ice-capades]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

Dealers do their own advertising.  They also manage their own regional rebates.

 

Yes, Dealers do their own advertising but that has nothing to do with FDAF regional advertising. More importantly, Dealers have absolutely no input on region rebates which are determined by Ford corporate. 

[akirby]

12 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

The regional FDAF's (Ford Dealer Advertising Fund) have Dealers that serve on the regional FDAF Board or Committee, but potential advertising is not presented to the overall dealership body for approval. I don't remember if the FDAF Board or Committee makes the decision but the regional FDAF Chairman/President acts as the liaison with the advertising agency. The FDAF is independent from Ford advertising but must comply with Ford advertising requirements along with applicable State advertising regulations and disclosures.     

I was thinking of the ones that specifically say North Georgia Ford Dealers e.g.  

[ice-capades]

19 minutes ago, akirby said:

I was thinking of the ones that specifically say North Georgia Ford Dealers e.g.  

 

North Georgia Ford Dealers would most likely be a FDAF type organization, although smaller than most. The FDAF's can vary depending on the number of dealerships, regional structure, etc.  

Edited November 30, 2023 by ice-capades
Additional Content

[Bob Rosadini]

Well guys, thx for discussion on regional FDAF efforts. In my opinion the Dealer originated ads I have seen hit closer to home than the ones that come from Dearborn.  Not surprising..guys in the trenches know what the real war is about.

Back to Gheads comment on the "red tractor".  Not only should they be showing OAP mediums in background, but also what I would call "Ford Memories"..be it a tractor, big truck or a Model A.  Capitalize on Ford's legacy.

(I'll draw the line on a Willow Run B-24?)

 

I have to say, I've seen a GMC add not that long ago that featured a couple of big buck boat/horse haulers  but it fades to a fire scene and a big GMC pumper -50's era (7m 650?? long nose) pulls up. But I digress..GM is as bad as Ford...They spend years building up.."GMC..the Truck People From General Motors"..then what do they do when they re-enter class 4,5,6?  They give the Chevy dealers the business!

[7Mary3]

GMC division of GM started generating so much profit from upscale trucks and SUV's it made sense to focus on that highly profitable market and let Chevy dealers handle the commercial end.    

[Bob Rosadini]

20 hours ago, 7Mary3 said:

GMC division of GM started generating so much profit from upscale trucks and SUV's it made sense to focus on that highly profitable market and let Chevy dealers handle the commercial end.    

Ya Think?  I'll have to disagree with you on this one-or should I say I disagree with the brains at GM. 

Like I said..GMC was synonymous with trucks..big trucks too.  How many Brigadier badges were sold vs Bruin?

Generals vs Bisons etc. Local GMC dealer did very well but when the Chevy decision was made, no 1 sales guy?..He will now sell you a 5500 Ram!

 

And Service?  How many Chevy dealers have the facility to say nothing of service personnel.  For sure, GM can spoon out the money for facility upgrades, training programs etc but did it make sense?

 

My uneducated opinion say it was a political decision to give it to the big dog at the table vs. the little dog.  Or better yet, wouldn't it have made sense to keep it as in the past?....if  you were a Chevy dealer who did sell medium/heavies in the old days, continue the dual badge program.

 

As a Ford guy however, I'm glad they did what they did..better for the Ford dealers that are trying to survive with their financial commitment to be a "Ford Pro" house.

[iamweasel]

On 12/1/2023 at 3:54 PM, Bob Rosadini said:

Ya Think?  I'll have to disagree with you on this one-or should I say I disagree with the brains at GM. 

Like I said..GMC was synonymous with trucks..big trucks too.  How many Brigadier badges were sold vs Bruin?

Generals vs Bisons etc. Local GMC dealer did very well but when the Chevy decision was made, no 1 sales guy?..He will now sell you a 5500 Ram!

 

And Service?  How many Chevy dealers have the facility to say nothing of service personnel.  For sure, GM can spoon out the money for facility upgrades, training programs etc but did it make sense?

 

My uneducated opinion say it was a political decision to give it to the big dog at the table vs. the little dog.  Or better yet, wouldn't it have made sense to keep it as in the past?....if  you were a Chevy dealer who did sell medium/heavies in the old days, continue the dual badge program.

 

As a Ford guy however, I'm glad they did what they did..better for the Ford dealers that are trying to survive with their financial commitment to be a "Ford Pro" house.

 

I don't think there would be enough of a market for "premium" trucks in Class 3-5.  Those are very price sensitive segments and don't see a lot of buyers paying extra money for the GMC when they can get the Chevy.  

 

Even in class 6-7, there are some (PERCEIVED) premium products there (Paccar) but they don't carry nearly the market share as PACCAR's class 8 trucks do.  Part of that is due to less demand for premium trucks in that segment and the other, quite frankly, is because there is nothing whatsoever that is premium about those medium duty PACCAR trucks.  They are as cheap and plasticky as anything else in the segment and with their small cabs there really isn't anything special about them.  (PACCAR can also undercut many of the other Class 6-7 brands on pricing, too, when they want to.)  

[Bob Rosadini]

6 hours ago, iamweasel said:

 

I don't think there would be enough of a market for "premium" trucks in Class 3-5.  Those are very price sensitive segments and don't see a lot of buyers paying extra money for the GMC when they can get the Chevy.  

 

Even in class 6-7, there are some (PERCEIVED) premium products there (Paccar) but they don't carry nearly the market share as PACCAR's class 8 trucks do.  Part of that is due to less demand for premium trucks in that segment and the other, quite frankly, is because there is nothing whatsoever that is premium about those medium duty PACCAR trucks.  They are as cheap and plasticky as anything else in the segment and with their small cabs there really isn't anything special about them.  (PACCAR can also undercut many of the other Class 6-7 brands on pricing, too, when they want to.)  

 

I didn't say anything about "premium" vs work trucks.  Are you making the point that the class 4, 5 and 6 that the GM/Navistar JV are making are "premium"?  The ones I see are work trucks.

 

 I make my point simply on the basis that GM had an entity that was built around the truck business....be it a 1/2 ton or a class 8.  They abandon a segment of the truck business and then come up with a scheme to go back into that segment but instead of giving it to the organization with a history in that business, they give it to an entity that if anything was a lesser player.  And the majority  of those dealers, don't have the facility or the personnel to do what their GMC counterparts could do.  But I'm sure in due time, perhaps with funds from GM -or their banker- they will construct service bays with 14' doors and train and or hire the  right service people.

 

But  I defer to your opinion given you are in the business of selling trucks.?

[iamweasel]

22 hours ago, Bob Rosadini said:

 

I didn't say anything about "premium" vs work trucks.  Are you making the point that the class 4, 5 and 6 that the GM/Navistar JV are making are "premium"?  The ones I see are work trucks.

 

 I make my point simply on the basis that GM had an entity that was built around the truck business....be it a 1/2 ton or a class 8.  They abandon a segment of the truck business and then come up with a scheme to go back into that segment but instead of giving it to the organization with a history in that business, they give it to an entity that if anything was a lesser player.  And the majority  of those dealers, don't have the facility or the personnel to do what their GMC counterparts could do.  But I'm sure in due time, perhaps with funds from GM -or their banker- they will construct service bays with 14' doors and train and or hire the  right service people.

 

But  I defer to your opinion given you are in the business of selling trucks.?

 

I may have misunderstood what you were saying a bit, and if so, my bad.....and NO I do not consider those Chevy/International trucks premium in any way. 

 

 

[zipnzap]

Any guesses as to what platform this will be built on?

 

https://blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/75669-second-generation-ford-e-transit-may-be-built-in-ohio/

[akirby]

25 minutes ago, zipnzap said:

Any guesses as to what platform this will be built on?

 

https://blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/75669-second-generation-ford-e-transit-may-be-built-in-ohio/

Would almost have to be T3.

[Joe771476]

I see FDNY is still buying/using latest generation light duty F-series (F350?) for ambulances. Also, I saw an F250 with the white perimeter oval around the outside of the blue oval logo as well as the white Ford script letters lit up. The blue field did not APPEAR to be lit. Anybody know if that's a Ford option or some DIY aftermarket item? I don't think just anybody could create this unless it was manufactured. I suppose it's possible by placing a bulb through the back, but how would a DIY-er  do it without lighting the blue field? As Bob has mentioned a few times, every fuel oil truck in CT seems to be a Pete or KW. Paccar must have gone on a mission and mailed literature to every fuel oil co. in the country! These trucks should all be Fords, or even Internationals or Freightliners! Paccar must be using the over capacity to sell these truck chassis for peanuts!

[GearheadGrrrl]

Could be that Paccar offered a discount to members of a fuel jobbers association? Out here in the rural midwest Paccar has been offering discounts to members of farm Co-ops and Ford used to offer a small incentive to Farm Bureau members. There are also buying pools like the State of Minnesota, Sourcewell, and the federal government that off pre-negotiated prices for government agencies and non profits.

[iamweasel]

PACCAR has been particularly aggressive of late in the states I deal with.  Their orders have dropped dramatically so they have a lot of build slots to sell and when that happens they will undercut everyone on price if they have to.  PACCAR has always had the most volitile pricing.  They claim to be some premium brand but they will get into the mud on pricing when they need to.  

 

Mack/Volvo, International and Ford may have slower order intake, too, but seems they have been struggling to get trucks built big-time and haven't reached the point where they've "caught up" to their pent up demand.  Given that, they have been steady on the prices lately.  

 

With my FTL/WST business, on the FTL side we are still working through our backlogs, too, and I expect very limited availability for the next 12 months.  Almost all our 24CY slots are spoken for already.  On the Western Star side, we have far more availability - especially given they are increasing WST production by 30% in 24CY - but we are still pre-selling most of our slots so we have held our pricing steady.   Sure we have lost some deals to PACCAR as they have gotten more aggressive, but we don't need to chase that right now.

 

On class 8 dumps, over the past 2 years PACCAR was selling them for $280-300K around here and we were at $230-240K.  In normal times, we would be around the same price as PACCAR so that just shows you how much they jacked their margins on everyone.  For 24CY, they are now quoting those same trucks for $240-250K which is right where we are.  On Class 6-7, they have been $3-5K under us lately.....and Ford is usually $5K below us.

Edited December 4, 2023 by iamweasel