Lutz: "Diesels do not make economic sense"

[SoonerLS]

In MI at present time, diesel gas is about same price as regular.

I don't know where you find "diesel gas," but in most parts of the US, diesel is more expensive than premium gasoline. I just checked the fuel prices at Love's Travel Stops, which has stores in a bunch of states; I found one station in California that had diesel at $0.01/gallon more than gasoline and one station in Oklahoma with diesel $0.10/gallon more than gasoline, but most of the stations had diesel at $0.30-$0.50/gallon more than gasoline--and quite a few were at $0.70/gallon over.

[jpd80]

I just wished that Ford would have put a 4 cylinder diesel in the Ranger for the last tow years before pulling the plug.

 

They would have been the pickup with the highest MPG, if geared right.

That 4.0 V6 was just too much of a gas hog.

The 2.2 diesel auto in T6 Ranger gets around US 24 mpg on ECE Urban cycle, similar to US city

[jniffen]

The 2.2 diesel auto in T6 Ranger gets around US 24 mpg on ECE Urban cycle, similar to US city

Any idea the type of transmisstion? 4 speed, 6 etc?

[LSFan00]

I think there are three common fallacies on this board re: diesel cars/prices, hybrid sales etc.;

 

1. Hybrids and diesels go after the same focus customer set.

 

 

 

With a raft of new diesel vehicles entering the market this year and next, the question arises: Who exactly will buy them?

Based on the results of a survey to be released later this morning, Volkswagen of America suggests that some drivers of gasoline cars are likely to be open to the benefits of diesel cars--but that many hybrid drivers are not.

The study, the first annual "Clean Diesel IQ Survey," will be released tonight at a forum, “Clean Diesel on the Rise”, sponsored by the German American Chamber of Commerce.

 

 

2. Diesel prices are 50 cents higher than gas (somewhere) and this means gasoline models cheaper fuel offsets the diesel MPG advantage. According to DOE the average last week was 3.54 vs. 3.85. That's an 8 percent difference diesel vs. gas (cowboy math, .31/3.85). The touted Cruze diesel is supposed to gain 10 MPG highway (going from 36 to 46 EPA rated). That's a roughly 21.7 percent difference. A further substantial advantage for diesel is that the engines also operate at much lower RPM's, and consequently should last several years longer. (Hybrids, contrarily, will have much lower residuals when they approach 7-8 years old as the batteries (especially in the south) will definitely be degraded substantially eventually requiring replacement.)

 

3. Diesel requires urea or extensive exhaust work to sell. I think the Mazda's EU ratings alone disprove that. That the Germans chose a complicated/expensive solution is neither determinative nor particularly surprising.

 

Meanwhile, while I don't know if I would count any Chrysler as a real volume seller, they're thinking about their next gen 300 with the VM Motori Diesel. I don't still think it likely diesel in 5 years will be at 500K stateside, but I don't understand the forced poor financial/product arguments on this site, which seem merely determined to support the existing Ford position.

[RichardJensen]

Diesel's already at ~500k units in the US. Mostly in trucks.

 

Further, regarding people on this site tending to see things from the same perspective as Ford:

 

1 - what do you expect? It's a Ford fan site.

 

2 - given Ford's position in the U.S. market, I think it is fair to conclude that they understand it about as well as any corporation does, and that their read on near-term trends is better than most automakers.

 

Finally, I think it's a bit specious to argue that low-revs = longevity, due to the enormous amount of additional variables in engine design, assembly and maintenance, and that a durable engine in an otherwise unreliable vehicle (e.g. Cummins in older Dodge trucks) isn't much of an advantage over a less durable engine in an otherwise more reliable vehicle.

Edited May 7, 2013 by RichardJensen

[Deanh]

If you figure the Transit replaces half of the E-Series out of the gate, and diesels take half of that, that's what? 20k vehicles? And I can't imagine more than 30-40k total for the Chrysler Diesel, and what? 20k Cruzes and maybe 20k Mazdas, and where are you at? You're in the vicinity of 100k units, which is a long way from 500k.

I think the Transit will clear the road of indecision, based on the transits Diesel engine take rate...Ford may/ maynot weigh installation in the upcoming f-150.............

Edited May 7, 2013 by Deanh

[jpd80]

Any idea the type of transmisstion? 4 speed, 6 etc?

I picked the 6R80 auto for that example, the 6-speed manual gets around 2 mpg better.

[Edstock]

3. Diesel requires urea or extensive exhaust work to sell.

 

No. Diesel MAY require "urea or extensive exhaust work" to meet emissions regulations, so they can be sold. It appears that with or without urea, drivability and economy seem to suffer, compared to the dirtier EU-standard diesels.

[YT90SC]

You are fooling yourselves if you think there is ANY advantage in life expectency of diesel over a gas engine.

[LSFan00]

No, most assuredly, I am not. As an example of an ICE motor comparison as far as longevity, go ahead and tell me any factual data showing gasoline lasts longer/equally to a diesel equivalent. I will just point out that for generators, and industrial applications generally (not just high torque requirements), diesel is universally preferred for longevity.

 

One automotive piece (from a mechanic's viewpoint);

 

A diesel engine’s life is usually around two times as long as a gas engine. This higher diesel engine life is due to the higher strength of the components used in diesel engines. Diesel fuel also has a lot better lubrication properties than gas as well and may prevent some common car repair issues seen in gasoline engines.

 

Another viewpoint (just wikipedia).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

 

The life of a diesel engine is generally about twice as long as that of a petrol engine^[28] due to the increased strength of parts used. Diesel fuel has better lubrication properties than petrol as well.

[92merc]

No, most assuredly, I am not. As an example of an ICE motor comparison as far as longevity, go ahead and tell me any factual data showing gasoline lasts longer/equally to a diesel equivalent. I will just point out that for generators, and industrial applications generally (not just high torque requirements), diesel is universally preferred for longevity.

 

One automotive piece (from a mechanic's viewpoint);

 

A diesel engine’s life is usually around two times as long as a gas engine. This higher diesel engine life is due to the higher strength of the components used in diesel engines. Diesel fuel also has a lot better lubrication properties than gas as well and may prevent some common car repair issues seen in gasoline engines.

 

Another viewpoint (just wikipedia).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

 

The life of a diesel engine is generally about twice as long as that of a petrol engine^[28] due to the increased strength of parts used. Diesel fuel has better lubrication properties than petrol as well.

 

It's not the fact that it's a diesel that gives it longevity. It's because they run higher compression due to turbos. That gives more HP and torque per a given displacement. Given Ford's move towards Ecoboost, I think it would be hard to say the CURRENT EB engines won't last as long as the CURRENT diesel turbo engines.

[LSFan00]

That's not really true, as the wear on components is higher due to the greater internal speeds (RPM's). The difference as between turbo's, and DI/common rail systems are now not really present any longer vis a vis an "Ecoboost" motor vs. "Duratorq." The compression ratio's are even similar nowadays as gas has ratcheted up compression while Mazda for instance is ratcheting down compression on their diesel to avoid the pollution issues.

 

BUT, the real difference is the power content volume; diesel has 38.6 megajoules/liter, vs. 34.6 for gas. Simply put, less energy has been refined/cracked out of the fuel.

[jpd80]

Unlike large diesel trucks, most new car and utility buyers trade their vehicles long before engine wear becomes a major factor

so the longevity of gasoline or diesel engines is not really a big determining factor in the purchase of those types of vehicles.

 

An interesting car coming to the market will be the 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta, that engine coupled with stop-start technology

is already reaping significant economy under European fuel economy test loops:

Urban = US 45 mpg (similar to US EPA city)

Extra urban = US 63 mpg ( Similar to light cruise on highway)

Combined = US 54 mpg ( Similar to US highway)

 

While diesel versions of the Fiesta give even more impressive mileage, I think the 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta

will turn a lot of heads around in North America regarding the efficiency of non-hybrid gasoline ICE car.

 

Not to dissuade diesel advocates but until European manufacturers deliver Euro 6 diesels with low NOX,

I think the cost burden on US buyers will be too much to make diesel options more than a curiosity.

To my mind, the area where diesels are most needed is in larger Utilities where the added efficiency of

a diesel in a heavier vehicle actually reaps more benefits for the owner, vehicles like Explorer and Expedition.

and by my estimations, a I-5 turbo diesel in Expedition would give around 20 mpg city and around 28 mpg hwy

Edited May 8, 2013 by jpd80

[LSFan00]

I agree, and more Expeditions/Explorers will still be owned by the same person 6-8 years down the road than most Fiesta's. And the 2.0EB in the Explorer sort of begs for a diesel "green" complement.

[jpd80]

I agree, and more Expeditions/Explorers will still be owned by the same person 6-8 years down the road than most Fiesta's. And the 2.0EB in the Explorer sort of begs for a diesel "green" complement.

Really, the 2.0 EB is a little small in Explorer to be anything more than an economy engine, the V6 diesel in Territory

also gives fuel economy similar to a 2.0 EB Mondeo/Fusion whilst delivering 6,000 lb towing capacity.

[RichardJensen]

go ahead and tell me any factual data showing gasoline lasts longer/equally to a diesel equivalent.

 

In automotive applications, can you prove there is a *meaningful* difference between diesel and gasoline engines over a conventional vehicle's service life?

 

I mean, good grief. I should buy a diesel Jetta with crappy VW reliability because generators are diesel powered? Why shouldn't I buy a car powered by an electric motor because electric motors are incredibly reliable powering things like the fan in my computer?

Edited May 8, 2013 by RichardJensen

[Deanh]

No, most assuredly, I am not. As an example of an ICE motor comparison as far as longevity, go ahead and tell me any factual data showing gasoline lasts longer/equally to a diesel equivalent. I will just point out that for generators, and industrial applications generally (not just high torque requirements), diesel is universally preferred for longevity.

 

One automotive piece (from a mechanic's viewpoint);

 

A diesel engine’s life is usually around two times as long as a gas engine. This higher diesel engine life is due to the higher strength of the components used in diesel engines. Diesel fuel also has a lot better lubrication properties than gas as well and may prevent some common car repair issues seen in gasoline engines.

 

Another viewpoint (just wikipedia).https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

 

The life of a diesel engine is generally about twice as long as that of a petrol engine^[28] due to the increased strength of parts used. Diesel fuel has better lubrication properties than petrol as well.

I had a livery company back in the day that ran Aerostars with the 4.0 engine. the Odometers zero'ed out at 800,000 miles, his entire fleet were million mile units.......they were extremely well maintained, and I beleive thats more important that the fuel they utilize.....

[LSFan00]

No, you shouldn't buy a TDI Jetta Richard. Making this an ad hominem issue against overall VW reliability is predictable. Some brands/products, when well maintained last a long time. (Others, ahem, like Mitsubishi, don't). We could discuss 800K Aerostars/Crown Vic's/Accords etc., and not have a meaningful discussion. I'm done with this one, as it's leading toward the "you can't be right, because that's not what F NA is doing right now" emotional arguments.

 

The facts of diesel longevity vs. gasoline are pretty incontrovertible, though they have nothing to do with arguing whether either type of engine/vehicle needs to be properly maintained. You can dismiss it or research it yourself but diesels do retain value better than gasoline equivalents (and note that this is precisely because they last longer). You don't have to bash VW/Audi/Mercedes reliability to get this at this data.

[Deanh]

No, you shouldn't buy a TDI Jetta Richard. Making this an ad hominem issue against overall VW reliability is predictable. Some brands/products, when well maintained last a long time. (Others, ahem, like Mitsubishi, don't). We could discuss 800K Aerostars/Crown Vic's/Accords etc., and not have a meaningful discussion. I'm done with this one, as it's leading toward the "you can't be right, because that's not what F NA is doing right now" emotional arguments.

 

The facts of diesel longevity vs. gasoline are pretty incontrovertible, though they have nothing to do with arguing whether either type of engine/vehicle needs to be properly maintained. You can dismiss it or research it yourself but diesels do retain value better than gasoline equivalents (and note that this is precisely because they last longer). You don't have to bash VW/Audi/Mercedes reliability to get this at this data.

not really dis-agreeing, but Gasoline engines have come a long way and generally are cheaper to maintain both short and long term, based on that I doubt too many really even think of longevity when it comes to a purchase, and thats underlined by the fact most vehicles are traded evey 5 years or so. My only thoughts regarding the superiority of diesels is sustainable freeway mileage in comparison with simialrly sized gasoline equivilents....I drove a 5 speed diesel Transit connect...it was GLORIOUS. And I maintain the best hybrid drivetrain ( price not being an issue ) has a diesel as the ICE....best of both worlds....

[RichardJensen]

it's leading toward the "you can't be right, because that's not what F NA is doing right now" emotional arguments.

 

The facts of diesel longevity vs. gasoline are pretty incontrovertible

 

Arguing that Ford understands the market better than you do is hardly 'emotional': Ford has demonstrated competence in exceeding its peers in profitability and growth in this market. What arguments can you muster to suggest that your ideas would be more profitable than Ford's?

 

The facts of diesel longevity vs. gasoline *in passenger cars* are what exactly? I've seen arguments by inference involving generators, but that is a bit of a stretch seeing how generators are used to produce electricity, and I do not see you arguing that a diesel generator producing electricity is the best way to power a vehicle. So clearly you recognize the limits of that analogy as well.

[aneekr]

I should buy a diesel Jetta with crappy VW reliability because generators are diesel powered? Why shouldn't I buy a car powered by an electric motor because electric motors are incredibly reliable powering things like the fan in my computer?

 

According to CR, reliability of A5 and A6 Jetta TDI models have been average or better since the common-rail diesel engines were introduced for U.S. market cars in MY 2009.

 

Neither non-turbo gasoline engine offered in the A6 Jetta is competitive with the better offerings in other C-segment cars. So if you like the Jetta otherwise, TDI, GLI, or Hybrid versions are your best choices.

[Deanh]

According to CR, reliability of A5 and A6 Jetta TDI models have been average or better since the common-rail diesel engines were introduced for U.S. market cars in MY 2009.

 

Neither non-turbo gasoline engine offered in the A6 Jetta is competitive with the better offerings in other C-segment cars. So if you like the Jetta otherwise, TDI, GLI, or Hybrid versions are your best choices.

sorry, but the word average doesnt instill any confidence at all....and lookup the cost of the High Pressure fuel pump...thats the issue I hear of constantly......

VW recalls 168,000 diesel vehicles in the U.S. Audi Q3, ... This high pressure fuel pump problem just occurred on our 2011 VW Jetta TDI wagon yesterday........2)

CR High Pressure Fuel Pump "HPFP ... the cost of this repair is anywhere between $6,900 ...

Edited May 8, 2013 by Deanh

[jpd80]

Ford is on record saying that the only sticking point with using diesels in North American products is the cost premium to customers,

in other words, what Ford considers it would have to charge customers to supply an emission compliant diesel engine. There are no

other technical issues that prevent that happening - it's purely economics and Ford going with Government tax credits available with hybrids.

Edited May 8, 2013 by jpd80

[Deanh]

Ford is on record saying that the only sticking point with using diesels in North American products is the cost premium to customers,

in other words, what Ford considers it would have to charge customers to supply an emission compliant diesel engine. There are no

other technical issues that prevent that happening - it's purely economics and Ford going with Government tax credits available with hybrids.

well, theyve done it with the inline 5 quite quickly, theres no doubt in my mind if the buying public started embracing diesels in an obvious manner they could/ would react pretty quickly....

[fordmantpw]

well, theyve done it with the inline 5 quite quickly, theres no doubt in my mind if the buying public started embracing diesels in an obvious manner they could/ would react pretty quickly....

 

My guess is that Ford could apply today to have the diesels certified for sale in the US. They know what it takes to meet emissions, and I'm sure they've got plenty running around that meet the US emissions. They just need to get them certified, plop 'em in the car, and start charging the customers. If customers REALLY want them, Ford will bring them.