akirby Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 The key is whether they have decided to go with a RWD platform for Lincoln or not. If they have then the added volume for Ford, other markets, etc. would be gravy and would help with amortization. If they don't need it for Lincoln then I agree it would be difficult to justify on its own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Focus sedan is definitely sold in Europe. It's not as popular as the hatch but it is available in most markets. Not in UK or Germany. I didn't look anywhere else but I'd think if they were selling it anywhere in Europe it would be in one of those 2 countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Linking directly to a photo on www.ford.de because why would they have a picture of the sedan on the German website if they don't sell it? (This forum won't let me copy the picture directly... something about a bad extension) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 The key is whether they have decided to go with a RWD platform for Lincoln or not. If they have then the added volume for Ford, other markets, etc. would be gravy and would help with amortization. I see it quite the opposite. I don't think that 'added volume from Ford, other markets' would be 'gravy' for a Lincoln RWD platform. I don't think a case can be made to go RWD based strictly on projected Lincoln volume. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gworl Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Linking directly to a photo on www.ford.de because why would they have a picture of the sedan on the German website if they don't sell it? (This forum won't let me copy the picture directly... something about a bad extension) Living in Germany I can confirm that the focus is offered as a sedan in Germany, but they don´t seem to sell very many of these, as you rarely see one in traffic or at the dealer. But it is the same with the Opel Astra sedan and the VW Jetta, no one wants those in Germany as they are regarded as unyouthful "Grandpa cars". I don´t know about Great Britain (although on my almost yearly trips to London I have yet to see a Focus sedan there), but the Escort sedan (formerly known as the Ford Orion) and Focus sedan have always been rather popular in Southern European countries like Spain and Portugal, it might still be that way. Regarding the discussion on building a RWD Ford-sedan it surely wouldn´t make much sense to offer such a car in Germany, as BMW, Mercedes and Audi literally own the large sedan market here. In my opinion Ford needs to find some other way to move upmarket in Germany and I guess Ford has found a way to do so by offering the 2015 Mustang and upcoming Edge in Germany, as SUVs are becoming more popular in Germany by the minute and the Mustang has a cult following not only in Germany, but Europe in general. The first driving impressions offered by German magazines on the Mustang are very favourable. Just today I received my weekly edition of "Focus", a very popular magazine comparable to "Newsweek" or "Time Magazine" in the USA and it featured the 2015 Mustang on the frontpage! I can´t remember the last time they featured a new BMW, Mercedes or Audi that prominently. Their report on the Mustang was very positive as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Linking directly to a photo on www.ford.de because why would they have a picture of the sedan on the German website if they don't sell it? (This forum won't let me copy the picture directly... something about a bad extension) Oops - you're right it is there in Germany. But I rechecked and it's not sold in the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) an LS550/LincStang has been a sure thing ever since FLincMoCo said they are pursuing the "highest volume Lux segment", ie 3er & friends what it will be, how diff from the MusStang, is the question(s) (( I hope stretched wlb (111"?) and a sportsedan accompanying SOME kind of 2-door... ...or else it won't count - imho )) BMW 3 sedan ("F30") 110.6" wlb, 182.5" ovl Oops - you're right it is there in Germany. But I rechecked and it's not sold in the UK.iircthe Focus sedan is popular in Ireland Edited September 29, 2014 by 2b2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 I see it quite the opposite. I don't think that 'added volume from Ford, other markets' would be 'gravy' for a Lincoln RWD platform. I don't think a case can be made to go RWD based strictly on projected Lincoln volume. They already have MKC, MKX, MKZ, MKS and Navigator. It doesn't make much sense to go with a Focus based small car and they've confirmed they're not going to do a large flagship car. If they're going to grow the brand what is left? 3 row SUV/CUV (Aviator) to fill in between mkc and navi. 2 door coupe and convertible. High performance mid sized sedan. I think there is enough volume to make it work just for Lincoln. If they want to charge premium prices they need premium products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Arguably, a Focus sized Lincoln makes more sense than an attempt to lure BMW buyers with a 'high performance sedan'. And as far as premium products goes, are you suggesting that 'RWD high performance' is interchangeable with 'premium'? Because, frankly, that is not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 I'm suggesting that if Lincoln does such a vehicle it will be a premium vehicle with premium features, performance and price. And it won't be aimed directly at BMW. I think a Focus derived Lincoln would be too cheap (would have to slot below MKZ and MKC) for where they want to take the brand. A S550 derived coupe and convertible would make far more sense and would still share a Ford platform. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Are there even 2k luxury convertibles sold per month? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) Are there even 2k luxury convertibles sold per month? Where else do you get growth after MKC, MKZ, MKX, Aviator, Conti and Navigator? Blackwood II? (careful - you're getting dangerously close to FordBuyer and his 2k/month obsession) Edited September 29, 2014 by akirby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) What do you do to get growth? You improve your existing product range so as to capture a greater slice of the market. I mean, what's a better way to get growth? Improve the MKZ so that it gets an extra 300 units per month (~10% growth for that product), or come up with a Lincoln convertible that sells at the rate of 300 units per month? Edited September 29, 2014 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 At this point it all depends on where you want to position the brand. After you've squared away the meat and potatoes it doesn't hurt to have an exotic dessert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 At this point it all depends on where you want to position the brand. After you've squared away the meat and potatoes it doesn't hurt to have an exotic dessert. I doubt very much that Ford wants to position the brand in exactly the same fashion that every other luxury auto maker is attempting to position their brand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 (edited) I doubt very much that Ford wants to position the brand in exactly the same fashion that every other luxury auto maker is attempting to position their brand. Hybrids and electrification appears to be Lincoln's future, both MKZ and MKX could do with hybrid and energi versions. Performance/ RWD is the default for luxury when you have nothing else, as exhibited by Cadillac's mountainous inventory. For all of GM's crowing about Voltec, the delivery of a $75K ELR seems to be downright laughable... It's just further proof to me that GM does not understand or respect its Cadillac buyers. Edited September 29, 2014 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted September 29, 2014 Share Posted September 29, 2014 Hybrids and electrification appears to be Lincoln's future, both MKZ and MKX could do with hybrid and energi versions. Performance/ RWD is the default for luxury when you have nothing else, as exhibited by Cadillac's mountainous inventory. For all of GM's crowing about Voltec, the delivery of a $75K ELR seems to be downright laughable... It's just further proof to me that GM does not understand or respect its Cadillac buyers. There is an MKZ hybrid already. Not sure why no PHEV version though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I doubt very much that Ford wants to position the brand in exactly the same fashion that every other luxury auto maker is attempting to position their brand. Other than Cadillac all those other brands are relatively successful so I don't think attempting is accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I mean, what's a better way to get growth? Improve the MKZ so that it gets an extra 300 units per month (~10% growth for that product), or come up with a Lincoln convertible that sells at the rate of 300 units per month?That depends--is that convertible RWD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Other than Cadillac all those other brands are relatively successful so I don't think attempting is accurate. The only non-German brand that is healthy is Lexus. And, well...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBirdStangSkyliner Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 (edited) I doubt very much that Ford wants to position the brand in exactly the same fashion that every other luxury auto maker is attempting to position their brand. I would expect Lincoln to do something original in regards to every other maker. However, this ultimately has to pass muster with people who buy luxury vehicles. I've yet to hear any vision of a future product line that seems destined to do that. When it comes to things that check boxes for luxury, so many don't appear to be in the plans. These omissions include; unique and higher spec platforms, RWD, unique and higher spec powertrains, choice of body styles (coupe, sedan, roadster, 4 door coupe, LWB), variety of paint colors unique to brand and even individual models, and interior features not available in an equivalent mass produced version. It is fine for them to define luxury on their own terms if the market agrees. I'm a skeptic until I see something more than wretched red-velvet chocolately packages that will make people wonder if Mary Kay has jilted Cadillac for Lincoln. Edited September 30, 2014 by TBirdStangSkyliner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 When it comes to things that check boxes for luxury, so many don't appear to be in the plans. Yes. Because luxury buyers go to dealers with check boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 I hear Cadillac is ready to do a 2 for 1 deal on Alphas, Buy a CTS and Get an ATS for free.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBirdStangSkyliner Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Yes. Because luxury buyers go to dealers with check boxes. Would you like a mulligan on this as it is doesn't seem like a very worthy post. Of course buyers have a list of expectations and wants whether they mentalize it as "check boxes" or not. My list has pretty much been standard expectations for a very long time. Things thrown around here like "a unique enough tophat" are yet to be proven at a brand level, over time, in the marketplace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted September 30, 2014 Share Posted September 30, 2014 Things thrown around here like "a unique enough tophat" are yet to be proven at a brand level, over time, in the marketplace. Like the "unique enough" tophats on the VW platforms that give us Audi, SEAT and Skoda that seem to be proven at a brand level, which is why VW does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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