geronimo183 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 http://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/ford/2014/10/06/us-opens-steering-probe-ford-cars/16797815/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I didn't think an EPAS failure would affect normal steering control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 It doesn't. Defaults to manual steering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Too many people that don't know that even if the steering is harder, it will still steer. I drove a 1972 Gran Torino with a big block for 6 weeks when the p/s pump failed and I didn't have the money to replace. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 People are babies anymore. There was a time when power steering was an add on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
351cid Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Every time I take my 1989 Ranger in for a state inspection, the first thing they tell me is that it won't pass because of the power steering being non functional (if it's a new guy). I ask them if they popped the hood and checked the steering box because it did not come with power steering. Their response is: "I didn't realize they built vehicles that didn't have p/s standard after the 1970's." I tell them that this was stripped down model that didn't even have a radio, but does have power brakes. The fact that it has 235/70-14 radials only compounds the issue, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 I have not had this failure with my Explorer but follow the Explorer forums and there are hundreds of posts about the Epas failures and that it is extremely difficult to steer when it happens. Most happen at very low speed and we all know that turning without power steering unexpectedly at slow speeds is difficult. Ford has already issued a recall on them which in my opinion only bandaids the real issue. Ford needs to step up and finally fix this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I don't agree its just a patch. The recall makes sure the assist is still present in the event a fault is detected. If the module has stored EPAS codes, the rack gets replaced. Not all EPAS gears will fail. We went through a lot of them for a short time. Now we haven't seen very many at all. I figure Ford will do a M program and extend the coverage of the rack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I have not had this failure with my Explorer but follow the Explorer forums and there are hundreds of posts about the Epas failures and that it is extremely difficult to steer when it happens. Most happen at very low speed and we all know that turning without power steering unexpectedly at slow speeds is difficult. Ford has already issued a recall on them which in my opinion only bandaids the real issue. Ford needs to step up and finally fix this issue. I don't agree its just a patch. The recall makes sure the assist is still present in the event a fault is detected. If the module has stored EPAS codes, the rack gets replaced. Not all EPAS gears will fail. We went through a lot of them for a short time. Now we haven't seen very many at all. I figure Ford will do a M program and extend the coverage of the rack. Thanks for the info, blwnsmoke and fordtech1. Recall #14S06 for the Explorer indicates that root cause for loss of power assist was "an intermittent electrical connection that led to a loss of the motor position sensor signal. This fault condition had been previously determined to have been caused by either ribbon cable conformal coat contamination or ribbon cable pin misalignment." I understand that TRW is the supplier for Explorer and Fusion/Milan/MKZ EPAS. Is it likely that the most common failure mode is the same for both? I haven't experienced any EPAS issues on my 2010 Fusion, but I'll visit the NHTSA site frequently as the investigation continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I don't agree its just a patch. The recall makes sure the assist is still present in the event a fault is detected. If the module has stored EPAS codes, the rack gets replaced. Not all EPAS gears will fail. We went through a lot of them for a short time. Now we haven't seen very many at all. I figure Ford will do a M program and extend the coverage of the rack. I have to respectfully disagree. Ford found this issue out quite a while ago and yet 2013s and 2014s are still having issues. Granted to a lesser degree but even replacement EPAS units are failing. This problem has not been 100% resolved and it should be. There is no reason for these failures and for customers to be left with a $1,500 repair. Hell, there was a customer who bought a 2014 Explorer and when picking it up, it failed at the dealership and they had to order a replacement. Just because a software update causes the power steering not to completely go to manual mode does not solve the problem of them still failing. The fact that they can and will still fail but will leave the customer with power steering still... well that still sticks them with a bill for a replacement unless the recall is going to cover unlimited replacements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blwnsmoke Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) Thanks for the info, blwnsmoke and fordtech1. Recall #14S06 for the Explorer indicates that root cause for loss of power assist was "an intermittent electrical connection that led to a loss of the motor position sensor signal. This fault condition had been previously determined to have been caused by either ribbon cable conformal coat contamination or ribbon cable pin misalignment." I understand that TRW is the supplier for Explorer and Fusion/Milan/MKZ EPAS. Is it likely that the most common failure mode is the same for both? I haven't experienced any EPAS issues on my 2010 Fusion, but I'll visit the NHTSA site frequently as the investigation continues. Yes, Ford has said they found the assembly line at the wrong angle which was causing solder to possible run down the board causing a malfunction. There was also ribbon cable issues and there was one other issue (they found 3). But this was resolved I believe 2 years ago. http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=320445&highlight=power+steering 793 posts on this issue and 40 pages. Here is a fantastic quote from 8/20/14 - "Beware! I got mine " fixed" the first week of the recall and it just failed AGAIN!!!! I am terrified! Now where am I supposed to turn for help?" Although reduced, this issue has not been fixed. And I will say it again, this reflash is just a bandaid fix!! Edited October 8, 2014 by blwnsmoke Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) Although I do not have any statistics, my experience has been 2011-2012 have been more of a issue. We have not replaced a rack in a long time. We sell and service a lot of explorers. Also, one note is that this condition can happen and the rack not be faulted due to a communication issue. As a matter of fact the 2011 Explorer had a issue with a connector pin fit issue that would cause high speed network fail and set steering system fault messages. I do suspect Ford will extend the warranty on the racks. That said, if you have a OE gear and it lasts 100k+ miles, do you think Ford should be responsible for replacing it even though it worked 3 times the warranty period? My father has a 09 Escape with the 6f35 transmission, those were super prone to failure in 09. He has 180k miles on it and has been trouble free, so not every vehicle will fail. I recommend on getting a premium care ESP warranty on anything with a lot of electronics. I got a 13 F150 and I will get a ESP if I decide to keep it because of parts costs. One big A/C repair the esp can pay for its self. Also, I am confused about the quote you posted. "I am terrified'? It's a steering rack not the Ebola virus. A little dramatic. What was the fix that was performed? I have never seen a replacement rack come back. We went through a rash of bad EPAS a while back but like I stated been quiet for a while. I am not being unsympathetic to people having issues, but IMO just like car insurance, you opted not to purchase a ESP, aka insurance policy, on your vehicle and something failed outside the 3/36 and now are responsible for costs. The gamble did not pay off. Edited October 8, 2014 by fordtech1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I recommend on getting a premium care ESP warranty on anything with a lot of electronics. That makes sense — a lot of sense. http://www.andrewshightech.com.au/Services/AirConditioning.aspx "Mercedes Benz B Class in our workshop having a leaking air conditioner evaporator replaced. This repair required the complete removal of the dash assembly and surrounding interior." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 As pointed out, there are different types of EPAS supplied to Ford by different vendors so be careful when comparing the system on one vehicle to another. Bad solder or ribbon cables (inside the module) are supplier quality issues. Ford powertrain module stopped using ribbon cables years ago. They use a flexible inner layer and then "built up" (additional layers of 'glass and copper) where components are mounted. some powertrain modules have 2 flex "joints" Very robust. If it is a sensor problem, you aren't going to fix it with software ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 If it is a sensor problem, you aren't going to fix it with software ! You can't fix it but you can make the software more tolerant of out of range conditions and lessen the impact of the failure on the operability of the vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 You can't fix it but you can make the software more tolerant of out of range conditions and lessen the impact of the failure on the operability of the vehicle. Maybe. Most manufacturers don't bother trying to fire spark or injectors when the Crankshaft Position Sensor is dead, even though there is adequate data to do so from the Camshaft Position Sensor (assuming you aren't playing around with cam timing). It can be done, although it is quite "challenging" especially when it must be done in the first couple of engine revolutions. The key sensors in an EPAS are steering wheel position and some way to measure/infer steering shaft torque effort. I can not imagine an algorithm that would work without both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 9, 2014 Share Posted October 9, 2014 Yeah it depends on the sensor and what it's measuring. But it is possible in some cases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmy311 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 This just happened on my neighbors 2012 Fusion with 12,000 miles. Wife was on the highway, steering fault came up on message center and advancetrac off illuminated on dash. Lost power steering and she did panic for a brief moment losing control of the car before coming to an abrupt stop safely. Dealer replaced steering rack and all has been good so far (going on a month). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bored of Pisteon Posted October 21, 2014 Share Posted October 21, 2014 The more electronic gadgetry I see on these new cars, the less likely I am to buy one. It's simply not worth the time, the money, nor the hassle to deal with them long term down the road. Ridiculous. People need to get a remedial course on how to drive a vehicle WITHOUT POWER STEERING! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 22, 2014 Share Posted October 22, 2014 (edited) I hear people have concern of EPAS cost for replacement. However, repairing a hydraulic system costs are likely to be on par. Most run the pump dry before replacing a leaking rack. So the cost or parts and labor for conventional rack and pump won't be so far from a epas rack assy. Also, no whine from pumps like old aerostar and wind stars. Edited October 22, 2014 by fordtech1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.