JasonM Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I don't know if this is more embarrassing for Honda or for Motor Trend. Maybe next year MT will test vehicles before awarding the golden calipers. Anyway, kudos to Ford for getting the job done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkiv-bWbLIo http://www.autoblog.com/2014/10/24/honda-cr-v-fails-swedish-awd-test/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I don't know if this is more embarrassing for Honda or for Motor Trend. Maybe next year MT will test vehicles before awarding the golden calipers. It would only be embarrassing for MT if COTY was an actual award based on technical excellence. As such, testing is largely irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 So, I couldn't quite grasp what Honda was trying to say in that press communique that was mechanically translated into English... Apparently, the rear diff can't handle 100% of the engine's torque? Weird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I wish the escape had painted lower cladding like the kuga. I think that looks better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 So, I couldn't quite grasp what Honda was trying to say in that press communique that was mechanically translated into English... Apparently, the rear diff can't handle 100% of the engine's torque? Weird. Basically, he is saying that under normal "real world" conditions, you would never encounter a situation where there is 0% traction in front that would require transfer of 100% of the power to the rear wheels, so the computers will not allow it to happen. Seems like a cop out... the internet car forums are lit up making fun of the explanation as you'd expect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Basically, he is saying that under normal "real world" conditions, you would never encounter a situation where there is 0% traction in front that would require transfer of 100% of the power to the rear wheels, so the computers will not allow it to happen. Seems like a cop out... the internet car forums are lit up making fun of the explanation as you'd expect. I don't understand why no traction control event took place. I could understand the traction control incapable of transferring enough power to rear wheels to make it move off the rollers, but should at least try and slow the slippage and attempt to send some power to rear. I think its completely possible for front wheels to be on ice and no traction. The only test I've seen is the Subaru test with 3 wheels on rollers. I can see that being highly unlikely, not to mention, you shouldn't be driving in that scenario. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 If I understand the Honda response, the system interpreted the radical difference in traction as a system fault and ignored it, and even if it didn't consider it a fault, the the system couldn't send 100% of the engine output to the rear axle. I have so many questions about this..... Like here's one: Okay, why didn't the system progressively shift torque to the rear? You'd think that it would take far less than 100% of the engine's output to push the car off the rollers. And another: What kind of weenie differential is going to grenade under the output of a CRV engine??????? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 BMW xDrive All-Wheel Drive vs. The Competition: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 It seems that most of those vehicles were transferring *zero* torque away from the slipping wheels. Which, again, is difficult for me to process. One should not develop an AWD system that interprets zero traction as a system fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Honda said the rear diff couldn't handle 100% torque. But you'd think they could transfer some torque. Do we know how the escape fares in the same test? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 It seems that most of those vehicles were transferring *zero* torque away from the slipping wheels. Which, again, is difficult for me to process. One should not develop an AWD system that interprets zero traction as a system fault. Its path of least resistance just like a open rear differential. The systems are probably locking the rear or front coupler and trying to use traction control by appling brake and killing power to transfer to gripping wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 These systems work in most situations. Compared to rollers, ice still permits some ever so slight form of traction to help transfer power. It would need limited slip differentials at both ends and a center diff or transfer case to completely link all wheels together. Otherwise an aggressive IVD system with 4 channel use to apply brakes to any spinning wheel to make a suido limited slip. I did expect the traction systems to do better at stopping spinning wheel after a couple revolutions. Most of them after several seconds of slippage seemed to figure out it had no traction and held the brake to transfer power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 2013 Subaru Outback vs. 2013 Toyota Venza All-Whe: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 This one was more realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 (edited) Anyway, kudos to Ford for getting the job done. Getting what done? Recalling the Escape over 10 times since introduction? Edited October 25, 2014 by aneekr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Getting what done? Recalling the Escape over 10 times since introduction? Works for me, good to see them staying on top of things. Seems the market agrees, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Getting what done? Recalling the Escape over 10 times since introduction? Doesn't seem to be a problem for gm or Toyota. What's the diffence between recalling now or later? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Its path of least resistance just like a open rear differential. The systems are probably locking the rear or front coupler and trying to use traction control by appling brake and killing power to transfer to gripping wheels. I guess I thought more of these systems used 100% software managed torque transfer. I know that Ford's iAWD & ControlTrac systems used 100% software management. And, apparently, BMW's xDrive does as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 I guess I thought more of these systems used 100% software managed torque transfer. I know that Ford's iAWD & ControlTrac systems used 100% software management. And, apparently, BMW's xDrive does as well. I'm sure these are software based but programmed for seamless operation. If they had a mode selection for severe cases like this scenario, I'm sure they would perform better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
92merc Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Getting what done? Recalling the Escape over 10 times since introduction? Yeah, cuz no one else has any recalls done. Until the recent restraint control module, the actual number of Escapes recalled has been low. They've been catching the issues quickly. Not waiting years like the GM ignition fiasco. Or Toyota's recent recall of 1.7 MILLION vehicles, that I can't remember what for. And I own a 2013 Escape. No major issues... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonM Posted October 25, 2014 Author Share Posted October 25, 2014 Since Honda stated they recognize the test as a legitimate test, I wonder if Honda will makes changes and make it right for their customers? Given how Honda failed to respond to "long known" airbag safety flaws that led to injuries and deaths, I suspect Honda probably won't step up and make it right. NY Times: Air Bag Flaw, Long Known to Honda and Takata, Led to Recalls http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/business/air-bag-flaw-long-known-led-to-recalls.html "Two deaths and more than 30 injuries have been linked to ruptures in Honda vehicles, and complaints received by regulators about various automakers blame Takata air bags for at least 139 injuries, including 37 people who reported air bags that ruptured or spewed shrapnel or chemicals. In one incident in December 2009, a Honda Accord driven by Gurjit Rathore, 33, hit a mail truck in Richmond, Va. Her air bag exploded, propelling shrapnel into her neck and chest, and she bled to death in front of her three children, according to a lawsuit filed by her family." Too bad Honda seems so reluctant to recall vehicles, even when there are "long known" safety defects. Maybe things are changing at Honda though due to increased NHTSA oversight, the new Honda Fit was just recalled 5 times in 12 months. That's quite a few for a simple, dinky car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordtech1 Posted October 25, 2014 Share Posted October 25, 2014 Since Honda stated they recognize the test as a legitimate test, I wonder if Honda will makes changes and make it right for their customers? Given how Honda failed to respond to "long known" airbag safety flaws that led to injuries and deaths, I suspect Honda probably won't step up and make it right. NY Times: Air Bag Flaw, Long Known to Honda and Takata, Led to Recalls http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/business/air-bag-flaw-long-known-led-to-recalls.html "Two deaths and more than 30 injuries have been linked to ruptures in Honda vehicles, and complaints received by regulators about various automakers blame Takata air bags for at least 139 injuries, including 37 people who reported air bags that ruptured or spewed shrapnel or chemicals. In one incident in December 2009, a Honda Accord driven by Gurjit Rathore, 33, hit a mail truck in Richmond, Va. Her air bag exploded, propelling shrapnel into her neck and chest, and she bled to death in front of her three children, according to a lawsuit filed by her family." Too bad Honda seems so reluctant to recall vehicles, even when there are "long known" safety defects. Maybe things are changing at Honda though due to increased NHTSA oversight, the new Honda Fit was just recalled 5 times in 12 months. That's quite a few for a simple, dinky car. Agreed on the air bag situation. Its an awful defect. Damn thing kill you instead of save you. To me this is worse than the ignition switch on GMs cars. However, I'm not sure which one was covered up more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Getting what done? Recalling the Escape over 10 times since introduction? Troll, Troll your boat...hey its better then the 13 recalls on the first generation Escape! :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggs32 Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Let's not forget the 26 recalls on the 2001 Honda Civic. I think it was originally something like 12 or 13 like the 2001 Escape but it has expanded quite a bit over the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
97svtgoin05gt Posted October 29, 2014 Share Posted October 29, 2014 I am shocked at the horrible performance ESPECIALLY the Benz. BMW FTW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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