RichardJensen Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 OK....well, thanks. Their cash flow *seems* good, but other than that, there's just no *there* there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Lincoln: UP 20% Cadillac: DOWN 18.7% Which one is further along in their restructuring plans again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Their cash flow *seems* good, but other than that, there's just no *there* there. I'll take your word for it. When it comes to financial acronyms and abbreviations, my eyes start to cross. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 OK....well, thanks. How long has the MKC been on sale? I haven't seen Acura's numbers for November yet, but the RDX was only around 3k units last month. I don't think 2k is anything to scoff at per se. Especially this early in the game. SRX was selling 7K at one point. I was thinking MKC would come close to that at 5K or so but maybe not. 2K is ok for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Focus and Fiesta still in transition between models? Supply or capacity issues? Focus hasn't even started transition yet, MY2015 Job 1 is scheduled for Monday. I've said it before and I'll say it again, when comparing Focus with the competition, it's too expensive with not enough features. A base Cruze, Civic and Corolla all have a cheaper base model and come better equipped. I'm not convinced it will be any better in MY2015, especially now with gas prices tanking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang84isu Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Mustang = 5309 Camaro = 5068 It's actually: Mustang = 8728 Camaro = 4385 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mustang84isu Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 What's going on with Taurus this year? I realize it is getting long in the tooth, but it's been in a freefall the last few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 2 words...Incentive Spending. GM,Fiat and the Asians have A LOT more on the hood for consumers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 What's going on with Taurus this year? I realize it is getting long in the tooth, but it's been in a freefall the last few months. Just speculation over here and from friends across the country. Full-size sedans do not sell like they used to when you can get a truck or folks are 'downsizing' into mid to compact CUV's. Perhaps the upcoming Taurus will generate some sales as it will be new. I'm not sure how it will maintain momentum after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) Regarding Focus sales - it's not always about having the highest volume. Ford may be happy with 15K Focus sales at higher ATPs with more profit vs. lowering the price/adding content/incentives and selling 20K units. Also - less Focus sales means more MKC and Escape production (I think). Edited December 2, 2014 by akirby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) 2 words...Incentive Spending. GM,Fiat and the Asians have A LOT more on the hood for consumers. GM's incentives were actually lower and Chrysler's were ~$50 more then Fords. Highest this month goes to Nissan (which is INSANE for a company that sells hardly any big buck trucks) Source PRNewswire (note this is forecast) http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/industry-average-transaction-price-climbs-for-third-consecutive-month-300003534.html Crazy enough, GM's ATP's are off the charts. This month had their highest ATP ever. Edited December 2, 2014 by Intrepidatious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Problem is that doesn't break it down by model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Is MKC fully ramped up? 2K isn't bad but I was expecting a lot more volume. Yes, ramped up! My father bought one of the 2k MKC sold in November... started shopping before Thanksgiving, had no trouble finding available inventory here in Los Angeles. Got the car on Black Friday at $300 over invoice - $1,000 rebate (so $700 below invoice). My reference with the 200 was that it more than doubled (almost tripled) it's sales compared to this time last year with the previous model. Don't do that... Chrysler stopped building the old 200 early in 2013 so inventory was next to nothing by the end of the calendar year. Also, from what I can see, the new 200 is still heavy on rental car fleet sale. 2 words...Incentive Spending. GM,Fiat and the Asians have A LOT more on the hood for consumers. Well, Ford is not spending a lot of money on F-150 and Transit to manage the inventory so it's not a fair comparison. But it is also not dumping cash on the hood like Toyota is doing with Camry so that's good. Regarding Focus sales - it's not always about having the highest volume. Ford may be happy with 15K Focus sales at higher ATPs with more profit vs. lowering the price/adding content/incentives and selling 20K units. I agree but I think Ford probably wish they sold more Focus wagon C-Max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Regarding Focus sales - it's not always about having the highest volume. Ford may be happy with 15K Focus sales at higher ATPs with more profit vs. lowering the price/adding content/incentives and selling 20K units. Also - less Focus sales means more MKC and Escape production (I think). No, MAP doesn't produce Escape or MKC, only Focus and C-Max, and despite rumors and My personal theories, it's going to stay that way for a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 GM's incentives were actually lower and Chrysler's were ~$50 more then Fords. I am not a big believer in these average incentive numbers: Cars.com reports for GM: September: $3,670 (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/october-average-transaction-price-reaches-highest-mark-of-2014-281319501.html ) August: $3,722 (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/september-average-transaction-price-highest-since-2013-277723801.html ) July: $3,512 (estimated) (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/incentive-spending-on-the-rise-as-summer-months-fade-269525741.html ) For that same period, GM's 3rd quarter financial report showed an average incentive cost of over $4,000, and in fact, they suggest that Cars.com's figures are off by 20% or more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 Don't do that... Chrysler stopped building the old 200 early in 2013 so inventory was next to nothing by the end of the calendar year. Also, from what I can see, the new 200 is still heavy on rental car fleet sale. The last gen 200 ended production in December 2014. Plenty of units available last November. The Avenger ended earlier in the year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 I am not a big believer in these average incentive numbers: Cars.com reports for GM: September: $3,670 (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/october-average-transaction-price-reaches-highest-mark-of-2014-281319501.html ) August: $3,722 (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/september-average-transaction-price-highest-since-2013-277723801.html ) July: $3,512 (estimated) (http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/incentive-spending-on-the-rise-as-summer-months-fade-269525741.html ) For that same period, GM's 3rd quarter financial report showed an average incentive cost of over $4,000, and in fact, they suggest that Cars.com's figures are off by 20% or more. Does GM include dealer holdback in their incentives? I'm assuming the number from cars.com is consumer incentives. Just a thought, no clue though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Does GM include dealer holdback in their incentives? I'm assuming the number from cars.com is consumer incentives. Just a thought, no clue though. Holdback? Or do you mean dealer cash? One thing that is hard to figure is subsidized leases or the cost of low apr financing but those have to be added to the incentive spending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Does GM include dealer holdback in their incentives? I'm assuming the number from cars.com is consumer incentives. Just a thought, no clue though. Here's the problem: How does cars.com know how many Malibus were sold with the $2,000 cash incentive in New England, vs. the number of Malibus sold with the $1,000 cash incentive in the Dakotas. How many got the $1,000 competitive trade-in bonus cash? How many buyers qualified for the subveened 0% rate vs. the subveened 1.9% rate? And what is the market interest rate on those loans that GM has to makeup with its financial arm, and what formula is used to determine the present value of that discounted interest? Now multiply that by every single incentive program (including ones like the American Quarter Horse Assocation & military discounts offered by Ford that are sporadic in application) out there, for every vehicle out there, and tell me how any 3rd party is going to be able to reliably and consistently estimate incentive spend. If guys in dealerships are telling us that they can't meet incentives from other car companies, I'm inclined to believe that's true throughout their dealer region. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) As a whole,GM and Ram trucks has better incentives than Ford. Camry,Altima and Sonata incentives are hurting Fusion. Edited December 2, 2014 by ironhorse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 (edited) Here's the problem: How does cars.com know how many Malibus were sold with the $2,000 cash incentive in New England, vs. the number of Malibus sold with the $1,000 cash incentive in the Dakotas. How many got the $1,000 competitive trade-in bonus cash? How many buyers qualified for the subveened 0% rate vs. the subveened 1.9% rate? And what is the market interest rate on those loans that GM has to makeup with its financial arm, and what formula is used to determine the present value of that discounted interest? Now multiply that by every single incentive program (including ones like the American Quarter Horse Assocation & military discounts offered by Ford that are sporadic in application) out there, for every vehicle out there, and tell me how any 3rd party is going to be able to reliably and consistently estimate incentive spend. If guys in dealerships are telling us that they can't meet incentives from other car companies, I'm inclined to believe that's true throughout their dealer region. So unless the information comes from the manufacturers themselves, we should basically keep our mouths shut. Hell, I'm fine with that. Frankly, it's the "go-to" online excuse for when "Brand X" doesn't sell well (right up there with "I only see <Model vehicle here> with rental barcodes on it!") Edited December 2, 2014 by Intrepidatious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 "subveened" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 "subveened" ? Funny thing is if you google that, another post by RJ comes up second. (Deanh running a not too distant fourth) http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index.php?/topic/48253-small-car-incentive-wars-sales-at-what-cost/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 "subveened" ? Actually, subvented. http://www.thebookoncarbuying.com/index.html?d=74x534l4d4y55454l4i594p5k4j4j4t2l426k4 In dealership slang, it seems to have gone through this progression: subvented > sub-vee-ed > subveened. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subvention "the provision of assistance or financial support" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 So unless the information comes from the manufacturers themselves, we should basically keep our mouths shut. Hell, I'm fine with that. Frankly, it's the "go-to" online excuse for when "Brand X" doesn't sell well (right up there with "I only see <Model vehicle here> with rental barcodes on it!") Well, to the extent that the information is reliably wrong, it can provide indicators month to month or year over year from the same company, but if the 3rd party changes their formula, you can't do that. And since none of these businesses publish their data, their collection methods, their formulas or their assumptions, you're kind of stuck with iffy data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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