Does Ford/Lincoln deserve its own Jaguar XF - Mustang based 4-door coupe T'Bird/ MKR?

[Biker16]

2014 figures

 

Nissan 370Z: 7,199

Q40: 15,590

Q50: 36,899

Q60: 7,740

QX50: 2,727

QX70: 5,213

 

Total for Nissan's FM architecture: 75,369

 

Total Ford Mustang sales: 82,635.

 

is that Global or US only?

 

What is the price of each vehicle on the Nissan platform?

Edited June 1, 2015 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

in 2001 the LS started at $56k and rose to $68K, today it Starts at $78k and maxes out at $120k

 

So you're saying that Lexus is perfectly okay with a 46% decline in LS volumes during a time period when sales of the Mercedes S-Class held steady? (25,276 last year, and 25,998 in 2001--can't find 2000 results).

 

You think that this represents a "success" on the part of this putative platform underpinning the GS, LS and IS?

 

You think that a 46% decline in LS volumes has been offset by an increase in transaction price that is likely less than 10%, after adjusting for inflation?

Edited June 1, 2015 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

 

The BMW buyers don't care they just pay.

 

what they will never do is pay Ford for a warmed over Taurus with a Chrome grille.

 

you notice that BMW's problem isn't shared by other makers with RWD CUVs and sedans, right?

 

BMW owners will never pay Ford for an imitation BMW.

 

And the problem that other makers of RWD CUVs have is that nobody wants them (please see Infiniti sales above, and look up the sales of MB's CUVs)

Edited June 1, 2015 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

 

is that Global or US only?

 

What is the price of each vehicle on the Nissan platform?

 

Oh? Because Nissan's selling a lot of Infinitis in Europe, are they?

 

And I don't need to look up the prices of those Infiniti products--I just find it interesting that someone would hold up as a success story a platform that can't outsell a single RWD car, of incredibly limited practicality, with a range of six cars. And that in individual terms is often (but not always) outsold by a comparable Lincoln product.

 

And yes, that is just for NA, but like I said, it's not like Nissan's selling a ton of these products in Europe, and it's not like Ford has done anything more than scratch the surface of selling Lincolns in China, so yeah, I think it's a very good proxy for the validity of this approach.

[Fgts]

 

So you're saying that Lexus is perfectly okay with a 46% decline in LS volumes during a time period when sales of the Mercedes S-Class held steady? (25,276 last year, and 25,998 in 2001--can't find 2000 results).

 

You think that this represents a "success" on the part of this putative platform underpinning the GS, LS and IS?

 

You think that a 46% decline in LS volumes has been offset by an increase in transaction price that is likely less than 10%, after adjusting for inflation?

One question in the same time period how many fwd-based Lex LS competitors suffer the same sales decline and do the LS still outsell the fwd comp with its $80k price?.

 

I'll add while the CUV market is hot, if Ford would do a mass-market rwd (which looks like they'll do IMO) a modular application is what they'll do with at least a CUV on that platform.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Fgts

[RichardJensen]

One question in the same time period how many fwd-based Lex LS competitors suffer the same sales decline and do the LS still outsell the fwd comp with its $80k price?

 

Irrelevant. No one here is suggesting an $80-120k FWD/AWD Lincoln. Although Audi has had some success with that arrangement (AWD exclusive stateside, FWD/AWD overseas)

[RichardJensen]

Also, it's interesting to note that the IS--if it is indeed closely related to the LS (they have fundamentally different rear suspensions) is the prototypical example of the multipurpose RWD product, wherein one vehicle sells really well, and the rest hardly at all (cf Infiniti Q50 and, probably, the Camaro vs. the ATS & CTS).

[SoonerLS]

The BMW buyers don't care they just pay.

 

what they will never do is pay Ford.

FIFY. I'm pretty sure the Lincoln LS proved that.

Edited June 2, 2015 by SoonerLS

[Biker16]

FIFY. I'm pretty sure the Lincoln LS proved that.

 

what year was that?

[akirby]

 

what year was that?

 

Born - 1999.

Died - 2006.

[Biker16]

 

So you're saying that Lexus is perfectly okay with a 46% decline in LS volumes during a time period when sales of the Mercedes S-Class held steady? (25,276 last year, and 25,998 in 2001--can't find 2000 results).

 

You think that this represents a "success" on the part of this putative platform underpinning the GS, LS and IS?

 

You think that a 46% decline in LS volumes has been offset by an increase in transaction price that is likely less than 10%, after adjusting for inflation?

 

have the volumes and revenue increased or decreased over time for the prducts on that platfrom?

does it lose money?

would it make more money if it were based on the Camry instead?

 

 

 

BMW owners will never pay Ford for an imitation BMW.

 

And the problem that other makers of RWD CUVs have is that nobody wants them (please see Infiniti sales above, and look up the sales of MB's CUVs)

 

Ford will never make a car that BMW buyer Will ever want, right?

 

Premium prices form premium vehciles, not premium prices for Warmed over mass market vehicles.

 

 

 

Oh? Because Nissan's selling a lot of Infinitis in Europe, are they?

 

And I don't need to look up the prices of those Infiniti products--I just find it interesting that someone would hold up as a success story a platform that can't outsell a single RWD car, of incredibly limited practicality, with a range of six cars. And that in individual terms is often (but not always) outsold by a comparable Lincoln product.

 

And yes, that is just for NA, but like I said, it's not like Nissan's selling a ton of these products in Europe, and it's not like Ford has done anything more than scratch the surface of selling Lincolns in China, so yeah, I think it's a very good proxy for the validity of this approach.

 

 

is the Nissan GRWD platform more profitable than the Mustang platform?

 

Lets look at the base price for the Infiniti GRWD prodcuts and multiply that by the US sales Volume in 2014

 

2014 Total estimated revenue Infiniti Q50 36899 $ 37,150.00 $ 1,370,797,850.00 Infiniti Q60 7740 $ 40,950.00 $ 316,953,000.00 Infiniti Q70 5034 $ 50,000.00 $ 251,700,000.00 Infiniti QX50 2727 $ 35,000.00 $ 95,445,000.00 Infiniti QX70 5213 $ 45,000.00 $ 234,585,000.00 $ 2,269,480,850.00

 

 

Grand total of Estimated revenue in 2014 2.27 Billion dollars.

Average base Price of $41,000. on 57,613 units sold.

 

Mustang 83,000 units in 2014 base price 23,800 or ~ 1.97 billion dollars in revenue.

[Biker16]

Also, it's interesting to note that the IS--if it is indeed closely related to the LS (they have fundamentally different rear suspensions) is the prototypical example of the multipurpose RWD product, wherein one vehicle sells really well, and the rest hardly at all (cf Infiniti Q50 and, probably, the Camaro vs. the ATS & CTS).

 

So, the Transit connect uses a different rear suspension too, does that make it not of C2?

[Biker16]

 

Irrelevant. No one here is suggesting an $80-120k FWD/AWD Lincoln. Although Audi has had some success with that arrangement (AWD exclusive stateside, FWD/AWD overseas)

 

i think the Contenetial is supposed to be a Flagship isn't it?

 

This goes to the fact that no one believes Lincoln is a real luxury brand.

[RichardJensen]

 

have the volumes and revenue increased or decreased over time for the prducts on that platfrom?

does it lose money?

would it make more money if it were based on the Camry instead?

 

 

 

Ford will never make a car that BMW buyer Will ever want, right?

 

Premium prices form premium vehciles, not premium prices for Warmed over mass market vehicles.

 

 

 

 

is the Nissan GRWD platform more profitable than the Mustang platform?

 

Lets look at the base price for the Infiniti GRWD prodcuts and multiply that by the US sales Volume in 2014

 

2014 Total estimated revenue Infiniti Q50 36899 $ 37,150.00 $ 1,370,797,850.00 Infiniti Q60 7740 $ 40,950.00 $ 316,953,000.00 Infiniti Q70 5034 $ 50,000.00 $ 251,700,000.00 Infiniti QX50 2727 $ 35,000.00 $ 95,445,000.00 Infiniti QX70 5213 $ 45,000.00 $ 234,585,000.00 $ 2,269,480,850.00

 

 

Grand total of Estimated revenue in 2014 2.27 Billion dollars.

Average base Price of $41,000. on 57,613 units sold.

 

Mustang 83,000 units in 2014 base price 23,800 or ~ 1.97 billion dollars in revenue.

 

You don't think there's $273M in additional costs associated with the differences between those models? You don't think that the cost of differentiation exceeds $45.5M per year?

[RichardJensen]

 

not premium prices for Warmed over mass market vehicles

 

Biker, the Mustang is a mass market vehicle.

 

What, apart from the drive wheels, is the difference between a Mustang-based Lincoln and a Fusion-based Lincoln?

[silvrsvt]

 

i think the Contenetial is supposed to be a Flagship isn't it?

 

This goes to the fact that no one believes Lincoln is a real luxury brand.

 

So since Caddy doesn't offer a 6 figure Car (not SUV) its not a real luxury brand either? I don't see a 80K+ Sedan from Acura either.

[RichardJensen]

And here's a thought experiment since we're largely in speculative territory when it comes to profits:

 

Call Mark Fields:

 

Ask him if he would swap the Nissan FM range for the Mustang.

[Edstock]

 

i think the Contenetial is supposed to be a Flagship isn't it?

 

This goes to the fact that no one believes Lincoln is a real luxury brand.

 

"Contenetial"? A troll who can't spell. You may believe the "Contenetial" (sic) is supposed to be a "Flagship", it seems that most believe it's just the latest Lincoln. You may not believe Lincoln is a real luxury brand, but it seems that as the months go by, the marketplace disagrees with you.

 

Troll on, dude, troll on.

[2b2]

^ I dunno about anyone else but

my keybord is dyslexic

 

just sayin

[ehaase]

Resurrecting the Excursion as a new Lincoln makes more sense - more sales and more profits - than this silly idea of the mythical "LincStang."

[Biker16]

 

Born - 1999.

Died - 2006.

Was it Flawed because it was RWD?

[akirby]

Was it Flawed because it was RWD?

 

No it was flawed because they tried to compete with BMW and failed. Because people don't buy BMWs just because they're RWD.

[Biker16]

And here's a thought experiment since we're largely in speculative territory when it comes to profits:

 

Call Mark Fields:

 

Ask him if he would swap the Nissan FM range for the Mustang.

 

Call Mark Fields:

 

Ask him if he would swap Lincoln for Infiniti.

 

 

"Contenetial"? A troll who can't spell. You may believe the "Contenetial" (sic) is supposed to be a "Flagship", it seems that most believe it's just the latest Lincoln. You may not believe Lincoln is a real luxury brand, but it seems that as the months go by, the marketplace disagrees with you.

 

Troll on, dude, troll on.

 

I'm not trolling.

 

I am asking questions, and I am right.

 

 

Irrelevant. No one here is suggesting an $80-120k FWD/AWD Lincoln. Although Audi has had some success with that arrangement (AWD exclusive stateside, FWD/AWD overseas)

 

$80,000 isn't alot of money for a Luxury brand.

 

even a Lower tier brand likeinfiiti has a sedan that can reach 80,000 dollars.

 

I wonder what it looks like.

 

 

Specs Q70L

 

RWD/AWD

 

7 speed transmission

 

5.6 liter 415hp V8 engine

 

Coefficient of drag

0.27

Overall length (inches)

202

Overall width (inches)

72.6

Overall height (inches)

59.6

Wheelbase (inches)

120.1

Track width (inches) Front

62

Track width (inches) Rear

61.6

 

Price Fully loaded $78,000.

 

You keep referring to Audi for inspiration for a Long FWD platform but Audi is the exception to the rule and RWD vehicles dominate the mid to high end of the luxury market.

 

the AWD MKS tops out at S51,000,does anyone think the MKS is more profitable than the Q70L?

[RichardJensen]

Infiniti sales: 114k from 8 models

Lincoln sales: 94k from 6 models

 

I don't think Mark Fields would make the swap.

[jpd80]

Was it Flawed because it was RWD?

IMO it did not succeed as anticipated because the styling was bland, like Catera and the LS name had no meaning for potential buyers.

So the RWD part was completely irrelevant, it would be like Ford making a bland looking Mustang but to a much smaller buyer audience.

 

 

What's important here is to give Lincoln buyers a reason to buy a car product and as Cadillac is finding out,

simply serving up RWD/AWD with good driving dynamics is secondary to a luxury-value prospect.

I think they fell down a hole trying to out BMW BMW and failed miserably and splitting the original CTS

market in two.simply doubled investment costs instead of increasing income.

 

Instead of ATS, Lincoln could offer either a Focus based sedan or a Mustang based coupe or none and bank the savings.

That's just as important too, choosing which segments to be in as well as which to stay out of... not forgetting China of course...

 

So now we have a MKZ and MKC selling at roughly double the volume per month as the Cadillac twins... how strange for GM..

And then there's the lower development costs.....

Edited June 5, 2015 by jpd80