Where can I start a conversation about......

[Stray Kat]

Ford's support of the enthusiasts interested in Flathead era vehicles?

 

Ok I know that sounds a bit loony but I seriously would like to know if there is any interest at all in the halls of FoMoCo in putting a bit more effort in making Ford Performance the go to source for this market.

 

There used to be a forum on the Ford Racing site but that disappeared and I haven't been able to find it again. There are glaring deficiencies in what's available in both hard parts and information relating Ford vehicles and Ford power, driveline, chassis and misc parts commonly needed

 

I thought this might be the place to at least start. I know some of you are connected at Ford. Maybe someone might like to openly discuss some specifics on this subject?

 

Thanks in advance.

[YT90SC]

While interesting idea and I could see the real appeal in the concept, but it probably wont happen. Even in the flattie's glory days, Ford had no interest in performance parts. Companies like Offy and the like filled that void really well back then. Fast forward to today and it is a niche market at best.

[Stray Kat]

While interesting idea and I could see the real appeal in the concept, but it probably wont happen. Even in the flattie's glory days, Ford had no interest in performance parts. Companies like Offy and the like filled that void really well back then. Fast forward to today and it is a niche market at best.

 

I disagree with you in that the business that supports the early car hot rod industry is a multi million dollar enterprise. The problem is Ford gets little to none of that business because in my opinion they are not too concerned with things made before the first Mustang was introduced. They don't connect to their early heritage very well. There are at most a couple guys spending a couple dollars to produce a couple parts in the Ford catalog.

 

The Flathead engine business happens to be booming now, yet I see no adapters, for example, to hook them to modern gearboxes in the Ford parts bins. Further still there is no nucleus of information available in one place to deal with the details of using Ford components in this realm.

 

General Motors has been all too happy in supplying early car power needs for decades. It's in the American lexicon. In fact the entire industry is primarily geared to the use of gm engines in early Ford vehicles. Anything other than that is odd and bucks the trend.

 

What say you?

[MJB3]

It is what it is.

[Ron W.]

Ford's support of the enthusiasts interested in Flathead era vehicles?

 

 

 

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/forum57/

[akirby]

If there was that much of a market the aftermarket companies would be all over it. Since they're not that should tell you something.

[Stray Kat]

If there was that much of a market the aftermarket companies would be all over it. Since they're not that should tell you something.

 

I probably didn't state my intent correctly. There is no question about there being a market. There is a healthy market for pre-60's Ford vehicles. No question about it. Ford automobiles make up a large percentage of the vehicles sought after by hot rodders. In fact motorsports in America was to a large degree based on Fords from the Model T to the end of the Flathead era. The problem is that most often when said vehicles are modified the builders choose to equip their Fords with GM parts.

 

I build Flathead Ford engines as a hobby and the demand for them is increasing. I know a thing or two about which I speak. I also take care of a fleet of classic cars for a local collector. Several of those cars are Ford classics with Chevrolet engines and transmissions etc. The car magazines have pounded the message into everyone's head that the sbc is the best and easiest engine to use when it comes time to update the driveline. I of course beg to differ for many reasons not the least of which is the high degree of butchery required to use the so called 350/350 formula.

 

There is much respect for Flatheads but when a guy wants to do an OHV conversion Ford engines don't exist. Why? The reasons are many but most of them are misinformed. There is a very high degree of confusion when it comes to utilizing Ford power in your rod.

 

The purpose of starting this thread is not to start a shitstorm about trying to to talk someone into what they should do with "their" car. I am merely trying to dangle this question in front of people who want to have a useful conversation on at least dispelling the misinformation and thus making the Ford option the more attractive one.

 

I would love to have access to the handful of guys that could make a difference to share ideas and possible realistic improvements by which to accomplish this.

 

The very first thing I would propose would be a line of signature Ford brand speed parts for the Flathead engine. Now I'm not say reinvent the wheel just research who and what's already out there and bring some existing hard parts into the Ford Performance line. Same goes for trans adapters and any number of existing well engineered parts that work. I'm talking about taking the guesswork out of Ford stuff.

 

The next wave would include two specially branded small block Ford crate engines. One based on the 302 and one on the 351. Now a little work would have to be put into this one. These engines would need to be ready to go delivered with the correct oil pan front cover and short water pump along with available pulleys and brackets to make them work without a doubt. I would dress these engines in vintage style adornments and brand them with a legendary Ford moniker like the "Thunderbird " series for example.

 

In direct parallel with the hot rod line of parts I feel there should be a technical book that focuses on the various Ford chassis how they differ and how the Ford line of components work with them.

 

There is a program supported by Ford called the "Ford in a Ford" award. This is an award presented to the best representation of a Ford powered Ford vehicle at the Goodguys Rod and Custom national events. While this is a good thing I think it is woefully inadequate. Most of us will never drive in NASCAR or a fuel funny car but many will at some point build their dream car for the road. I think a strong case can be made for more closely following and catering to this market.

[akirby]

I understand the desire - nothing wrong with that. And I was referring to parts/crate engines from Ford. There may be a healthy market from your perspective, but from Ford's standpoint there may not be enough of a market for them to invest in and make it worthwhile. Some buyers will go aftermarket anyway, and I'm sure a lot of folks would rather have a more modern OHV 302 or a Coyote. It just seems like a niche market so it's understandable why Ford isn't participating.

[RichardJensen]

What you're describing sounds more viable for a 3rd party with a license from Ford. Dressing an existing Ford block w/accessories that will fit in a 30s era Ford and marketing same seems more like a small biz venture than a program for Ford.

[bifs66]

If I'm not mistaken, Ford has made an effort to encourage hot rodders to put a Ford engine in their rods. This was several years ago; and I'm not sure they have continued the program. Of course, they meant the OHV SBF. I think there was hardware like a stub-nosed water pump to reduce the overall length of the SBF; headers, rear sump oil pans, etc. They also advertised in numerous hot-rodder magazines; and had special awards for Ford powered rods. The SBF is about 6" narrower, and is significantly lighter than the SBC; but I guess that is lost on the fixation with the SBC. Of course, there is nothing like the bark of a flathead sitting between the rails.

[SoonerLS]

What you're describing sounds more viable for a 3rd party with a license from Ford.

I'm pretty sure this is what Ford has been doing.

[RichardJensen]

Well, except it doesn't appear that anyone's offering a fully dressed Ford engine ready to drop in a deuce coupe frame, which I think is what Stray Kat wants.

[lfeg]

The hot rod/ modified/ homebuilt market has pretty much "standardized" on the SBC over the years because of its availability over many years and the speed parts (both from the GM parts bin and aftermarket). Using Ford power has always been more work and "against the grain". Some of that has been due to a variety of engine families. variations in fitment in those families (bellhousings that accept specific transmissions only for certain years only (the elusive 223 six / C4 bellhousing of 1964 as an example), and poor support over many years. I do not see Ford getting into this area. But I do enjoy seeing the Flathead and even a Y block or even a Lincoln Y block in a rod or other application. I have even seen a Flathead with a Warner T98 installed in a late 70s F100.

[Donaldo]

It seems this idea would take off if someone started a trend of tearing out SBCs in hot rods and replacing them with Ford motors and the collector market value supported these re-conversions. Sounds like some have tried to do this already.

A bigger question is if the next generation of guys in their late 40s/50s with disposable income will be wanting pre-1960s hot rods or will the money go to other types of cars or trucks. The OP is assuming there will be a timeless appeal of hot rods, but newer generations will not have the same nostalgia for them and the collector interest has already shifted more to muscle/sports cars and other classics. Most guys in their 20s/30s (future collectors) probably have no clue what a flathead engine is anyway.

[mackinaw]

The OP is assuming there will be a timeless appeal of hot rods, but newer generations will not have the same nostalgia for them and the collector interest has already shifted more to muscle/sports cars and other classics. Most guys in their 20s/30s (future collectors) probably have no clue what a flathead engine is anyway.

 

Good point.

 

You tend to collect items from your youth. The baby-boom generation (those who are into cars) collects and restores 1960’s-era vehicles (Mustangs, Road Runners, GTO’s, etc.). The Elvis generation has collected and restored 1950’s Detroit iron (Corvettes and the original two-seat T-bird). I have no idea what today’s generation will be collecting and restoring. Probably iPhones and/or video games.

As for the flathead, it is a niche market that only a true hot-rodder or auto historian would have much interest in. I’m sure a market for performance parts exists, but as suggested above, it’s probably best served by a third party vendor.

[Stray Kat]

I understand the desire - nothing wrong with that. And I was referring to parts/crate engines from Ford. There may be a healthy market from your perspective, but from Ford's standpoint there may not be enough of a market for them to invest in and make it worthwhile. Some buyers will go aftermarket anyway, and I'm sure a lot of folks would rather have a more modern OHV 302 or a Coyote. It just seems like a niche market so it's understandable why Ford isn't participating.

 

 

Whew! I have been trying to participate here for the past few days but my iPhone won't let me sign is. I dunno…..

 

Anyways allow me to point out a few things,

 

To answer your point directly about market size you and I are in disagreement. Ford knows there is a healthy market they have simply conceded it for the most part to GM with pockets deepened to a degree by we the taxpayers. Bolstered by seemingly unlimited funds they are not shy it seems to fully participate in motorsports and special projects such as this. General Motors is the primary supplier of engines and transmissions for early Ford vehicles and by a huge margin.

[fordmantpw]

Whew! I have been trying to participate here for the past few days but my iPhone won't let me sign is. I dunno…..

 

There was an issue with the site that has now been resolved.

[Stray Kat]

What you're describing sounds more viable for a 3rd party with a license from Ford. Dressing an existing Ford block w/accessories that will fit in a 30s era Ford and marketing same seems more like a small biz venture than a program for Ford.

Richard it is a 3rd party venture. Ford does have a licensing program for restoration parts all the way up to and including various Model A, `32 and `40 Coupe bodies. Their expenditure in these products is virtually zero. I would guess that some archived information is shared but Ford is not currently footing any bills that I know of in this arena.

 

If you look back at my initial post you'll see that I indicated that it would be highly desirable if Ford put some effort into seeking the best and currently being produced aftermarket engine driveline and chassis parts and brought them into the Ford umbrella. So we actually are on the same page.

 

I do however believe that offering a crate engine with merely vintage dressing on the outside misses the mark. I am talking about developing a brand of engines that are specifically designed to satisfy this market. Ford does have a nice line up of pushrod engines that can be adapted. I am talking about something conceived from the get go to fulfill this purpose. Ford has done a wonderful job with the Ecoboost brand for example. It is not a stretch that with some judicious moves they could create a desirable engine line for this multi million dollar industry. I'll get into specifics in a bit.

[Stray Kat]

If I'm not mistaken, Ford has made an effort to encourage hot rodders to put a Ford engine in their rods. This was several years ago; and I'm not sure they have continued the program. Of course, they meant the OHV SBF. I think there was hardware like a stub-nosed water pump to reduce the overall length of the SBF; headers, rear sump oil pans, etc. They also advertised in numerous hot-rodder magazines; and had special awards for Ford powered rods. The SBF is about 6" narrower, and is significantly lighter than the SBC; but I guess that is lost on the fixation with the SBC. Of course, there is nothing like the bark of a flathead sitting between the rails.

You are correct bits there was a minor effort in solving some of the problems with swapping Ford small blocks. I believe the special water pump is still available but you're on your own with the pulleys and the rest of the brackets. In addition to that no available engine from Ford came with these parts. You buy and engine then by more parts to make it work. Some of the parts you took off were redundant and wasted.

 

The oil pans you speak of are of the 5.0 Mustang ilk and are not that great since they are "double sump" and the front drain plug is often above the crossmember. A better solution would be a truck style pan with a single rear sump location.

 

The "Ford in a Ford" award has gotten so far off track that they have on many occasions awarded that trophy to Ford vehicles from the late `50s or `60s which are rarely converted to brand x power. It has lost it's meaning.

[Stray Kat]

The hot rod/ modified/ homebuilt market has pretty much "standardized" on the SBC over the years because of its availability over many years and the speed parts (both from the GM parts bin and aftermarket). Using Ford power has always been more work and "against the grain". Some of that has been due to a variety of engine families. variations in fitment in those families (bellhousings that accept specific transmissions only for certain years only (the elusive 223 six / C4 bellhousing of 1964 as an example), and poor support over many years. I do not see Ford getting into this area. But I do enjoy seeing the Flathead and even a Y block or even a Lincoln Y block in a rod or other application. I have even seen a Flathead with a Warner T98 installed in a late 70s F100.

This is something that I have been dying to answer with a bit of my own perspective. What you are stating here is folklore foisted upon young hotrodding minds ever since the hot rod magazines realized they could make a fortune from advertisers peddling small block Chevy parts.

 

General Motors has had just as much variety in engine design that Ford has. The difference is that GM calls their different engine families by the carline that they were designed for and by. A Pontiac 350 does not interchange at all with any of the other 350's. It does share a bell housing flange with Buick and Olds but that's it.

 

Ford on the other hand has all their engines under one name. Hence the perception of haphazard and unnecessary complexity. That's a load of crap! Sure there are detail differences but no more or less than any other manufacturer. In fact there are solid reasons for certain differences such as small block and big block bell housing patterns. These reasons for these intelligent engineering differences should be made public and possibly be dispelled as unnecessary. We are not talking about rocket science here.

 

The vast majority of Ford engines used in early cars are of the small block family with the exception of the Flathead. Now we are dealing with an engine family that is very interchangeable.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Stray Kat

[Stray Kat]

It seems this idea would take off if someone started a trend of tearing out SBCs in hot rods and replacing them with Ford motors and the collector market value supported these re-conversions. Sounds like some have tried to do this already.

A bigger question is if the next generation of guys in their late 40s/50s with disposable income will be wanting pre-1960s hot rods or will the money go to other types of cars or trucks. The OP is assuming there will be a timeless appeal of hot rods, but newer generations will not have the same nostalgia for them and the collector interest has already shifted more to muscle/sports cars and other classics. Most guys in their 20s/30s (future collectors) probably have no clue what a flathead engine is anyway.

While your points are certainly valid you miss some the bigger picture. Right now the hot rod industry is bigger than ever. The fellows who are considered restorers are the ones who are not refilling their ranks sadly. There is a huge subculture now for rods, rat rods, rockabilly etc. and Ford is no where to be found except as a sheet metal donor.

 

You are basically saying that you feel that the classic hot rod will go out of style and be replaced by muscle cars and imports etc. While that may be true to a certain extent you are forgetting that it is the youth that are diving into this cultural movement and are dreaming of building their own cars as we speak. There ias an unprecedented amount of talent out there. There are television shows devoted to this kind of thing, yet the myopic view is oh it's a small market not worth the while.

 

I'll give you a little unscientific poll I took for myself. Ten years ago there were 5 or 6 major late model Mustang magazines on any bookstore bookshelf. Now there are 1 or 2. At the same time the hot rod journals have exploded. There are almost a dozen out there now. Why? is it because the hot rod movement is dying? Nope. Printed periodicals have actually been on the wane just like newspapers have been with the advent of the internet. Naw there is a voracious amount of interest and it's not coming from old guys like me. It's the new young breed of ladies and gentlemen with new ideas ready to express themselves in this arena.

 

I guess my last point would be how can we explain a relatively young Jay Leno having any interest at all in a 1929 Bugatti Grand Prix car? He by conventional logic should be fixated on the cars he wanted when he was in high school. I realize this is an extreme example but I offer it to illustrate the fact that automotive passion is no cut and dried thing.it is not easily explained and it is an individual choice obviously.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Stray Kat

[Stray Kat]

Anyways if the average engaged Ford enthusiast doesn't care then I don't think think Ford heritage will be carried forward. I am thinking that the average viewer on here , is here because they are Ford enthusiasts. If the message does not resonate here then I feel that does not bode well for the cause. In a way Ford's early heritage has already been lost. Early V8 era Fords are part of pop culture, BUT, mostly with GM power or maybe the early hemi. Ya'll good with that? Ford should take a page out of Harley` Davidson's book about cultivating heritage. Harley has become a legend because of tradition. Yes I know there are making forays into modern tech but their worldwide status and reputation is based on their traditional formula.

 

Am I suggesting Ford go back to Model T's…. of course not. I am merely questioning why they don't at least pick some of the low hanging fruit in the arena of Flathead era vehicles. Literally the changes needed would cost a pittance compared to some of the projects Ford has taken on. I actually believe with all my heart there could be an attractive ROI for a venture like this.

[Stray Kat]

I wish I had more time to discuss the transition period from the Ford Flathead era of performance vehicles. The hows and the whys. Let's just say Ford owned performance for the "little guy" till the "Kettering" V8's and the hemi came out. The other manufacturers recognized what Ford was in sole possesion of and they most certainly were after that piece of the pie.

 

As a parting shot I leave you with exhibit A. Written in 1953 by Zora Arkus Duntov to GM management about this very subject. You see I believe that the Chevrolet division was very keenly aware of the attributes of the Flathead Ford formula and I am sure they were hoping to create a viable product in their new V8 based on that formula. I wouldn't be a bit surprise if a Flathead Ford or two were lying around GM labs when the sbc was conceived and developed.

 

Submitted for your consideration……..

 

 

 

 

Thoughts Pertaining to Youth, Hot Rodders, and Chevrolet

• The Lifestyle
• Pop Culture

by Keith Cornett - Dec 16, 2010

0 6

Fifty-Seven years ago today, an assistant staff engineer working for Chevrolet recognized the burgeoning hot rod market was made up of young men who invariably turned to Ford parts and accessories for performance. The engineer also deduced that once these men progressed in age and income, they would trade in their jalopies for used Fords and then for new Fords. For Chevrolet to be able to compete for these new performance-minded customers, the company’s anticipated V8 engines should also be made available with a ready line of engineered performance parts including cams, pistons and valves. And so the assistant staff engineer wrote a memo to his boss detailing this epiphany.

Little did Zora Arkus-Duntov realize the paradigm shift that would take place after he penned his now famous letter “Thoughts Pertaining to Youth, Hot Rodders, and Chevrolet” on December 16, 1953 to his boss, Chevrolet Chief Engineer Ed Cole.

 

Thoughts Pertaining to Youth, Hot Rodders, and Chevrolet

The Hot Rod movement and interest in things connected with hop-up and speed is still growing. As an indication: the publications devoted to hot rodding and hop-upping, of which some half-dozen have a very large circulation and are distributed nationally, did not exist some six years ago.

From cover to cover, they are full of Fords. This is not surprising that the majority of hot rodders are eating, sleeping, and dreaming modified Fords. They know Ford parts from stern to stern better than Ford people themselves.

A young man buying a magazine for the first time immediately becomes introduced to Ford. It is reasonable to assume that when hot rodders or hot rod-influenced persons buy transportation, they buy Fords. As they progress in age and income, they graduate from jalopies to second-hand Fords, then to new Fords.

Should we consider that it would be desirable to make these youths Chevrolet-minded? I think that we are in a position to carry out a successful attempt. However, there are many factors against us:

1. Loyalty and experience with Ford.
2. Hop-up industry is geared with Ford.
3. Law of numbers: thousands are and will be working on Fords for active competition.
4. Appearance of Ford’s overhead V-8, now one year ahead of us.

When a superior line of GM V-8s appeared, there where remarkably few attempts to develop these, and none too successful. Also, the appearance of the V-8 Chrysler was met with reluctance even though the success of Ardun-Fords conditioned them to the acceptance of Firepower.

This year is the first one in which isolated Chrysler development met with successes. The Bonneville records are divided between Ardun-Fords and Chryslers.

Like all people, hot rodders are attracted by novelty. However, bitter experience has taught them that new development is costly and long, and therefore they are extremely conservative. From my observation, it takes an advanced hot rodder some three years to stumble toward the successful development of a new design. Overhead Fords will be in this stable between 1956 and 1957.

The slide rule potential of our RPO V-8 engine is extremely high, but to let things run their natural course will put us one year behind – and then not too many hot rodders will pick Chevrolet for development. One factor which can largely overcome this handicap would be the availability of ready-engineered parts for higher output.

If the use of the Chevrolet engine would be made easy and the very first attempts would be crowned with success, the appeal of the new RPO V-8 engine will take hold and not have the stigma of expensiveness like the Cadillac or Chrysler, and a swing to Chevrolet may be anticipated. This means the development of a range of special parts – camshafts, valves, springs, manifolds, pistons, and such – should be made available to the public.

To make good in this field, the RPO parts must pertain not only to the engine but to the chassis components as well. In fact, the use of light alloys and brake development, such as composite drums and discs, are already on the agenda of the Research and Development group.

These thoughts are offered for what they are worth: one man’s thinking aloud on the subject.

Signed,

Zora Arkus-Duntov
December 16, 1953

[SoonerLS]

The Ford Racing catalog is full of parts; you can buy transmissions and bellhousings and even full-on crate engines, including Coyotes with stand-alone controllers. The parts are there, so what are you expecting Ford to do?

[Stray Kat]

The Ford Racing catalog is full of parts; you can buy transmissions and bellhousings and even full-on crate engines, including Coyotes with stand-alone controllers. The parts are there, so what are you expecting Ford to do?

Gosh I'm no great communicator but I do think I described at least to some degree what's lacking.

 

In a nutshell there are physical characteristics on SBF's that differ from SBC's. Now they are not deal killers but they are difficult in some ways. There are solutions that I don't think I have time to get into right now.

 

I'm proposing a real effort being put into this market. My gosh what a sad commentary on Fords and Ford engineering if they accept to be largely passed over when it come time to re power their own vehicles for heaven's sake! Do I really have to convince any car enthusiasts that Chevrolet dominates this arena? Geez! The collection I take care of consists of 20 or so cars. Out of those there are 7 Flathead V8 era cars. Out of those 4 are powered by Chevrolet, 2 are Flathead Fords and one is an OHV Ford. You think that's a good average?