Spoiled rotten brats

[Len_A]

As someone whose connnection to the automobile industry is as a car enthusiast and a purchaser of new vehicles, there are three things I would say to this:

 

One, the UAW leadership is chosen through an election, so it would seem as though leadership must follow membership's wishes to stay in power. At least, this is the appearance from the "outside looking in."

 

Two, one of the issues that has been identified as a big concern by management and the union is health care. The UAW has called for government takeover of health care, and William Clay Ford, Jr., and Rick Wagoner have strongly hinted that the government take this course of action to relieve them of their health care burden.

 

Except that, in the case of retirees, there IS a government-run health care program - Medicare. If the UAW were serious about relieving these companies of paying for health-care costs, it would simply propose that retirees be transferred to Medicare. This would give a huge assist to GM and Ford (even if they still had to pay for medical benefits for active employees).

 

There's only one problem - UAW will never do that, because Medicare benefits aren't as rich as the UAW negotiated benefits. And it would bankrupt the country to extend UAW-level benefits to the entire country (heck, Medicare itself is getting to be a HUGE strain on the federal budget).

 

So, to an outsider, some of the UAW's posture on this issue is more than a tad disingenuous - and I can't believe that it is totally disconnected from what the rank-and-file want.

 

I understand that UAW members didn't approve the Pontiac Aztek, run Oldsmobile into the ground, allow the Taurus (and now the Focus) to wither on the vine, or starve Lincoln for product. But I don't see a groundswell of support to eliminate the Jobs Bank, bring capacity into line with demand (to prevent the need for constant fire sales and dumping of excess models on fleets, which is destroying resale value and brand equity over the long run) or take measures that will really improve quality or productivity. All of which must be done to save these companies.

 

And, three, as everyone on this forum argues over various issues, market share slowly slips away. This was brought home to me this weeked in two separate instances.

 

In the first, a friend's family traded their Ford Windstar for a Toyota Sienna, because of the Windstar's crappy transmission. So there is another customer lost to Ford, probably forever. (Please know that I realize that the Windstar's crappy transmission, which is a well-known flaw, isn't the UAW's fault.)

 

The second involved a cousin whose family has been loyal to Mopar for over 30 years. His dad drove Dodge trucks, and his mother's car was always a Plymouth Fury, later follwed by a Chrysler Cordoba (her last car before she died).

 

He has been driving Dodge Rams and, his wife drives a Chrysler Sebring. Imagine my surprise when he pulled up in a Nissan Titan, and said that he is through with Dodges because of the lousy resale value.

 

Oh, and his daughter just graduated from high school, got a job in a local bank as a teller, and bought her first car - a used Honda Civic coupe.

 

If Ford, GM, Chrysler and the UAW lose these customers - who don't live in California, aren't especially rich, and have been loyal to the domestics for years - they are in BIG trouble.

The appearance from the outside looking is incorrect. If I remember correctly, the most the membership in the plants get to do is vote for delegates. The delegates vote for the leadership, and many of the rank-and-file UAW members (I won't speak for the CAW) will tell you that, at best, the "selection" of candidates is at least slanted toward whomever the current leadership favors. The closest analogy, in conventional politics, is the caucus system used by some states in place of a primary. Whoever already has a big political machine is who wins.

 

 

 

Current members of the UAW, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

Health-care: Medicare doesn't cover everything for the retires, and that's where the supplemental health insurance coverage takes over, so to speak, and that's the financial burden for the automakers. What Rick Wagoner and Bill Ford, Jr. are calling for is at least the catastrophic coverage be something the government takes care of. That would, at the very least, stop the cost shifting hospitals do, or at least slow it down. As far as how much it would cost to extend at least Medicare level of care to the whole country is a matter of debate. Many of the countries we compete with have at least some level of government health care, so the playing field is far from level, especially as the Big 3's employees age. With younger and smaller workforces, and no legacy from the 1960's and 1970's to pay for, the transplants are competing with Detroit from a position of built-in fiscal advantages. If this keeps up, as it has in steel and the airline industry, then no company or industry can afford to "get old". That has to stop.

 

 

 

As to the Jobs Bank/Gen Pool, know something of the history of this program. First, in GM's case, the buyouts are reducing those ranks. Second, part of this program was rooted in the "plant closure ban" negotiated many contracts ago, when sales were much higher. To further that point, the closure ban was initially proposed by Ford Motor Company, after they intensely lobbied with UAW to be the strike target, because they 1) wanted to further their "good" relationship with the UAW leadership of the time, and 2) wanted to propose something that wouldn't cost them much, as they were operating at capacity, but, due to pattern bargaining, could "stick it" to GM. That's right, sports fans, part of this problem was initiated by management, in better times (for Ford) as a part of using the collective bargaining process to cause trouble for a competitor. Came back and bit them in the ass. No, the UAW membership isn't running away from their negotiated benefits. You think they want these programs? They want the powers-that-be to get their act together, and get hot selling products on the market so they can have jobs.

 

 

 

As to your friends that went with a transplants products, we've all seen that, and in some cases with in our own families. The fault there lies with the decision makers who caused the problem. Taurus went for it's entire life on the same platform, with only "improvements" and a few power-train changes, but being no longer seen as competitive. Crown Vic/ Grand Marquis/ Town Car have gone for decades on basically the same platform, again with "improvements" but no complete redesign. The bean counters are at it, again, screwing things up, yet again. No V-8 for the next generation Lincoln "flagship". Five Hundred/Montego's CVT transmission being dropped because they "can't take cost out of it". The Mercury not really being fixed, despite Bill Ford Jr.'s dictates a few years ago to fix it. More and more cost cutting, like cost-cutting is going to bring customers into the showrooms.

 

 

 

We've all seen customers run from GM, Ford, and Chrysler, and in Ford's case, we've seen GM fix Cadillac while Ford let's Lincoln twist in the wind, and Chrysler's 300/Charger out sell Five Hundred/Montego by more than two to one through the first seven months of the year. Think any of these guys are happy about it? I don't think so. And those of us who are vendors aren't thrilled either. Management is letting the ship flounder, and we're getting thown off and into the stormy waters.

Edited August 28, 2006 by Len_A

[grbeck]

The appearance from the outside looking is incorrect. If I remember correctly, the most the membership in the plants get to do is vote for delegates. The delegates vote for the leadership, and many of the rank-and-file UAW members (I won't speak for the CAW) will tell you that, at best, the "selection" of candidates is at least slanted toward whomever the current leadership favors. The closest analogy, in conventional politics, is the caucus system used by some states in place of a primary. Whoever already has a big political machine is who wins.

 

 

 

Current members of the UAW, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

 

Health-care: Medicare doesn't cover everything for the retires, and that's where the supplemental health insurance coverage takes over, so to speak, and that's the financial burden for the automakers. What Rick Wagoner and Bill Ford, Jr. are calling for is at least the catastrophic coverage be something the government takes care of. That would, at the very least, stop the cost shifting hospitals do, or at least slow it down. As far as how much it would cost to extend at least Medicare level of care to the whole country is a matter of debate. Many of the countries we compete with have at least some level of government health care, so the playing field is far from level, especially as the Big 3's employees age. With younger and smaller workforces, and no legacy from the 1960's and 1970's to pay for, the transplants are competing with Detroit from a position of built-in fiscal advantages. If this keeps up, as it has in steel and the airline industry, then no company or industry can afford to "get old". That has to stop.

 

 

 

As to the Jobs Bank/Gen Pool, know something of the history of this program. First, in GM's case, the buyouts are reducing those ranks. Second, part of this program was rooted in the "plant closure ban" negotiated many contracts ago, when sales were much higher. To further that point, the closure ban was initially proposed by Ford Motor Company, after they intensely lobbied with UAW to be the strike target, because they 1) wanted to further their "good" relationship with the UAW leadership of the time, and 2) wanted to propose something that wouldn't cost them much, as they were operating at capacity, but, due to pattern bargaining, could "stick it" to GM. That's right, sports fans, part of this problem was initiated by management, in better times (for Ford) as a part of using the collective bargaining process to cause trouble for a competitor. Came back and bit them in the ass. No, the UAW membership isn't running away from their negotiated benefits. You think they want these programs? They want the powers-that-be to get their act together, and get hot selling products on the market so they can have jobs.

 

 

 

As to your friends that went with a transplants products, we've all seen that, and in some cases with in our own families. The fault there lies with the decision makers who caused the problem. Taurus went for it's entire life on the same platform, with only "improvements" and a few power-train changes, but being no longer seen as competitive. Crown Vic/ Grand Marquis/ Town Car have gone for decades on basically the same platform, again with "improvements" but no complete redesign. The bean counters are at it, again, screwing things up, yet again. No V-8 for the next generation Lincoln "flagship". Five Hundred/Montego's CVT transmission being dropped because they "can't take cost out of it". The Mercury not really being fixed, despite Bill Ford Jr.'s dictates a few years ago to fix it. More and more cost cutting, like cost-cutting is going to bring customers into the showrooms.

 

 

 

We've all seen customers run from GM, Ford, and Chrysler, and in Ford's case, we've seen GM fix Cadillac while Ford let's Lincoln twist in the wind, and Chrysler's 300/Charger out sell Five Hundred/Montego by more than two to one through the first seven months of the year. Think any of these guys are happy about it? I don't think so. And those of us who are vendors aren't thrilled either. Management is letting the ship flounder, and we're getting thown off and into the stormy waters.

 

Regarding the UAW election system - even if this is the system, the "big political machines" have to at least make some attempt at pleasing the membership, so I can't believe that there is complete disconnect between what the rank-and-file want and what the leadership provides.

 

I know how caucuses work, and to portray these policies as being completely divorced from what members want because they elect delegates - instead of directly casting votes for leadership positions - is a stretch. No one builds up a big political machine without lots of support from both above AND below.

 

Regarding health care - one of the misconceptions is that in other countries the government assumes all of the health care costs.

 

The companies and individuals are being taxed to support ANY government-provided program. A country can't just print more money to pay for these programs without triggering massive inflation. At the most, the costs are being spread throughout a wider section of society. Even that, however, is not enough.

 

Even in Germany, for example, most health care is still provided through the employer. The state only provides lower-cost health care to the elderly, the unemployed or the poor.

 

The dirty little secret in these countries is how they contain costs for the government-run program. Hint - it involves a fair amount of rationing. My relatives are German. In most cases, forget about a hip replacement if you are a German in your 80s. Think Americans - let alone UAW members - will go for that?

 

Germany is also instituting co-payments and other measures to combat rapidly escalating health care costs with its government-run programs. Before my great aunt died in 2004 at the age of 90, she was in the hospital for several months...and she was complaining about the co-payments required by the government for her care.

 

These other countries are actually grappling with escalating costs, in spite of their nationalized systems and attempts to ration care. In Great Britain, for example, a friend who works with the National Health System describes chronic shortages of money to buy equipment and patients desperately trying to negotiate long waits to see physicians. In Germany, an increasing number of people on the government-admininstered programs are being turned away by doctors, because of the low reimbursement rates offered by the government-run program. The doctors prefer patients with private health insurance.

 

As for the Jobs Bank - I knew that it was originally agreed to by Ford (although I didn't know exactly why). To most people, however, the history is irrelevant. They see people getting paid not to work by companies that are edging towards bankruptcy. And it no longer makes sense. It is rapidly becoming unsustainable, but I don't think that the UAW is eager to let it go, even if it wasn't the union's idea in the first place.

 

Interestingly, the last contract was also very generous, considering the rising competiton faced by the Big 3 - because GM wanted to stick it to Ford and Chrysler (as it was farther along in its restructuring program, and wanted to improve union relations after the bitter 1998 strike in Flint). Those terms came back to haunt the companies and the union, just as the Jobs Bank did.

 

The shortsightedness of management and the union is not the fault of the transplants, or the people who buy their products.

 

And as long as we are looking at the past to explain the present - remember that it was Big 3 managment and the UAW that called upon the Japanese to build plants here in the first place. I remember Lee Iacocca telling everyone who would listen that part of a "level playing field" involved Toyota, Honda and Nissan actually BUILDING vehicles here. The UAW echoed the same line. Of course, the union failed to unionize these plants, and the transplants did a better job of hiring people and running their factories, and now both the UAW and top management complain about the transplants' "unfair advantages."

 

Plus, even if these companies bring out a spate of hot-selling new products, the brutal truth is that GM and Ford still have too much capacity. According to Micheline Maynard in her book, The End of Detroit, Toyota can make as many vehicles as GM with 1/3 the number of workers. So even a slew of hot sellers isn't going to suddenly require GM and Ford to reopen plants and hire more workers. They need to become more efficient, and becoming more efficient means building MORE vehicles with FEWER workers, like it or not.

 

While GM and Ford management deserve their share of blame, I think people underestimate how competitive the market really is. It's incredibly tough to reverse a market-share slide in the United States unless: 1. a company comes out with a game-changing product (very difficult to do - even Toyota and Honda have based their latest success on offering very refined versions of conventional vehicles, not bringing out anything revolutionary); or 2. undercuts the competition drastically on price while offering a vehicle that almost matches the competition in every way (virtually impossible with current cost structure of GM and Ford). Even Toyota and Honda are growing slowly but consistently, not by leaps-and-bounds.

 

So, "Bringing out hotter models" isn't going to solve some of the deep structural disadvantages that are handicapping GM and Ford. Hotter models aren't a subsitute for addressing the structural inefficiences these companies face. A hot model gives the company some breathing room, but given the mindset of both the UAW and management, good times become an excuse to resume "business as usual."

Edited August 28, 2006 by grbeck

[Len_A]

Regarding the UAW election system - even if this is the system, the "big political machines" have to at least make some attempt at pleasing the membership, so I can't believe that there is complete disconnect between what the rank-and-file want and what the leadership provides.

 

I know how caucuses work, and to portray these policies as being completely divorced from what members want because they elect delegates - instead of directly casting votes for leadership positions - is a stretch. No one builds up a big political machine without lots of support from both above AND below.

My only comment will ne ask the membership. Whether you want to believe it or not, the UAW leadership has been disconnected from the majority of the rank-and-file, and has been for a long time. I'm a former member of UAW Local 600, and just about every older relative in my family, including my father is an active member of the UAW or a retiree. I am far closer to it than you think, and I dare you to find a member, whether they post here or not, that doesn't feel there is a huge disconnect between the UAW leadership and the membership. Another case of someone on the outside applying their values and experiences to a situation they don't quite understand.

 

 

 

Regarding health care - one of the misconceptions is that in other countries the government assumes all of the health care costs.

 

The companies and individuals are being taxed to support ANY government-provided program. A country can't just print more money to pay for these programs without triggering massive inflation. At the most, the costs are being spread throughout a wider section of society. Even that, however, is not enough.

 

Even in Germany, for example, most health care is still provided through the employer. The state only provides lower-cost health care to the elderly, the unemployed or the poor.

 

The dirty little secret in these countries is how they contain costs for the government-run program. Hint - it involves a fair amount of rationing. My relatives are German. In most cases, forget about a hip replacement if you are a German in your 80s. Think Americans - let alone UAW members - will go for that?

 

Germany is also instituting co-payments and other measures to combat rapidly escalating health care costs with its government-run programs. Before my great aunt died in 2004 at the age of 90, she was in the hospital for several months...and she was complaining about the co-payments required by the government for her care.

 

These other countries are actually grappling with escalating costs, in spite of their nationalized systems and attempts to ration care. In Great Britain, for example, a friend who works with the National Health System describes chronic shortages of money to buy equipment and patients desperately trying to negotiate long waits to see physicians. In Germany, an increasing number of people on the government-admininstered programs are being turned away by doctors, because of the low reimbursement rates offered by the government-run program. The doctors prefer patients with private health insurance.

My family is from Europe, and I have family in Canada, and I won't argue with your comments. All very true. Yet, somewhere, there has to be some kind of a solution, within our borders, that doesn't penalize older companies. What that solution is, I don't know.

As for the Jobs Bank - I knew that it was originally agreed to by Ford (although I didn't know exactly why). To most people, however, the history is irrelevant. They see people getting paid not to work by companies that are edging towards bankruptcy. And it no longer makes sense. It is rapidly becoming unsustainable, but I don't think that the UAW is eager to let it go, even if it wasn't the union's idea in the first place.

 

Interestingly, the last contract was also very generous, considering the rising competiton faced by the Big 3 - because GM wanted to stick it to Ford and Chrysler (as it was farther along in its restructuring program, and wanted to improve union relations after the bitter 1998 strike in Flint). Those terms came back to haunt the companies and the union, just as the Jobs Bank did.

 

The shortsightedness of management and the union is not the fault of the transplants, or the people who buy their products.

True, and this story just seems to keep repeating itself.

And as long as we are looking at the past to explain the present - remember that it was Big 3 managment and the UAW that called upon the Japanese to build plants here in the first place. I remember Lee Iacocca telling everyone who would listen that part of a "level playing field" involved Toyota, Honda and Nissan actually BUILDING vehicles here. The UAW echoed the same line. Of course, the union failed to unionize these plants, and the transplants did a better job of hiring people and running their factories, and now both the UAW and top management complain about the transplants' "unfair advantages."

True, Former UAW President Doug Fraser recently commented on how he not only went to Japan to tell them to "build it where you sell it", but, to quote Mr. Fraser, "screamed at them."

 

 

Plus, even if these companies bring out a spate of hot-selling new products, the brutal truth is that GM and Ford still have too much capacity. According to Micheline Maynard in her book, The End of Detroit, Toyota can make as many vehicles as GM with 1/3 the number of workers. So even a slew of hot sellers isn't going to suddenly require GM and Ford to reopen plants and hire more workers. They need to become more efficient, and becoming more efficient means building MORE vehicles with FEWER workers, like it or not.

 

While GM and Ford management deserve their share of blame, I think people underestimate how competitive the market really is. It's incredibly tough to reverse a market-share slide in the United States unless: 1. a company comes out with a game-changing product (very difficult to do - even Toyota and Honda have based their latest success on offering very refined versions of conventional vehicles, not bringing out anything revolutionary); or 2. undercuts the competition drastically on price while offering a vehicle that almost matches the competition in every way (virtually impossible with current cost structure of GM and Ford). Even Toyota and Honda are growing slowly but consistently, not by leaps-and-bounds.

Unfortunately true. Still, that doesn't justify the comments of the clown, who started this thread, calling the people here "spoiled brats". Management had been screwing up far more programs than you may be aware of, and it doesn't fill me full of the "warm and fuzzies" as a vendor to pay for their screw-ups, and the hourly and salaried workers who have nothing to do with managements decision making process are getting tired of bearing the brunt of their mistakes.

 

 

 

As far as Toyota's and Honda's growth by "leaps and bounds", I'll point out , in Toyota's case, it's coming back and biting them. Quality issues, in the North America, Japan, and abroad, are on the increase, the Japanese Ministry of Trade and Industry has Toyota under investigation over quality and vehicle safety issues, and Toyota has taken the extraordinary step of delaying new vehicle programs by six months to get a better handle on quality. Despite the comments to the contrary by Toyota's Japanese management, my contacts with Toyota's North American suppliers and their Ann Arbor, MI tech and design center confirm a six month delay in the the speed of bringing new cars and trucks out. That puts their "leaps and bounds" on the a time frame much closer to that of Ford, GM, and Chrysler Group.

 

 

 

Honda is no longer any prize on quality either. NHTSA lists plenty of owner complaints against Honda, and they too are fighting the problem of quality issues that seem to grow as they attempt to speed up the concept-to-production process. Nissan has had a slew of quality issues from their Canton, Mississippi plant, and they had to do a speed up a redesign of the Quest mini-van's interior, due to a redesign screw up. So much of invincibility..

 

 

 

What is a valid comment, up to a point, is the fact that they employee fewer workers. Of course, in Toyota's case, it's actually difficult to determine, as they (Toyota) own many of their suppliers. And keep in mind that GM and Ford have had plants rated higher in efficiency (by J.D. Powers) than some of the Toyota, Honda, and Nissan plants.

 

So, "Bringing out hotter models" isn't going to solve some of the deep structural disadvantages that are handicapping GM and Ford. Hotter models aren't a subsitute for addressing the structural inefficiences these companies face. A hot model gives the company some breathing room, but given the mindset of both the UAW and management, good times become an excuse to resume "business as usual."

True - what the hell do you think the buyouts purpose is? To reduce those structural disadvantages, in part, by reducing head count. GM & Ford wouldn't be the first companies to address those concerns by buying out higher seniority workers amid plant closures. Your last comments are valid, but you seem to miss the point that the companies are downsizing. And regardless of what any of the pundits have to say, the companies can not accelerate the downsizing process without further jeopardizing their customer base. They can neither just cancel models and shut plants down, nor speed up the process of bringing out new products with out jeopardizing quality.

[farazin]

Regarding the UAW election system - even if this is the system, the "big political machines" have to at least make some attempt at pleasing the membership, so I can't believe that there is complete disconnect between what the rank-and-file want and what the leadership provides.

 

I know how caucuses work, and to portray these policies as being completely divorced from what members want because they elect delegates - instead of directly casting votes for leadership positions - is a stretch. No one builds up a big political machine without lots of support from both above AND below.

 

 

OK, just a quick comment this election and the UAW "leadership". How can you think they have to make some attempt to keep us happy, Does "W" make an attempt to keep most of America happy? Hell no, all he cares about big business, it is the one percent who rule this country just as it is in the Union. We need a revolution in both!

[ktpworker69]

Actually you sound like a typical white collar @SSHole who stereotypes all auto workers because you went to college and is jealous that we have better benefits.Oh wait I am sorry am I stereo typing you???

[grbeck]

My only comment will ne ask the membership. Whether you want to believe it or not, the UAW leadership has been disconnected from the majority of the rank-and-file, and has been for a long time. I'm a former member of UAW Local 600, and just about every older relative in my family, including my father is an active member of the UAW or a retiree. I am far closer to it than you think, and I dare you to find a member, whether they post here or not, that doesn't feel there is a huge disconnect between the UAW leadership and the membership. Another case of someone on the outside applying their values and experiences to a situation they don't quite understand.

 

 

 

My family is from Europe, and I have family in Canada, and I won't argue with your comments. All very true. Yet, somewhere, there has to be some kind of a solution, within our borders, that doesn't penalize older companies. What that solution is, I don't know.

True, and this story just seems to keep repeating itself.

True, Former UAW President Doug Fraser recently commented on how he not only went to Japan to tell them to "build it where you sell it", but, to quote Mr. Fraser, "screamed at them."

Unfortunately true. Still, that doesn't justify the comments of the clown, who started this thread, calling the people here "spoiled brats". Management had been screwing up far more programs than you may be aware of, and it doesn't fill me full of the "warm and fuzzies" as a vendor to pay for their screw-ups, and the hourly and salaried workers who have nothing to do with managements decision making process are getting tired of bearing the brunt of their mistakes.

 

 

 

As far as Toyota's and Honda's growth by "leaps and bounds", I'll point out , in Toyota's case, it's coming back and biting them. Quality issues, in the North America, Japan, and abroad, are on the increase, the Japanese Ministry of Trade and Industry has Toyota under investigation over quality and vehicle safety issues, and Toyota has taken the extraordinary step of delaying new vehicle programs by six months to get a better handle on quality. Despite the comments to the contrary by Toyota's Japanese management, my contacts with Toyota's North American suppliers and their Ann Arbor, MI tech and design center confirm a six month delay in the the speed of bringing new cars and trucks out. That puts their "leaps and bounds" on the a time frame much closer to that of Ford, GM, and Chrysler Group.

 

 

 

Honda is no longer any prize on quality either. NHTSA lists plenty of owner complaints against Honda, and they too are fighting the problem of quality issues that seem to grow as they attempt to speed up the concept-to-production process. Nissan has had a slew of quality issues from their Canton, Mississippi plant, and they had to do a speed up a redesign of the Quest mini-van's interior, due to a redesign screw up. So much of invincibility..

 

 

 

What is a valid comment, up to a point, is the fact that they employee fewer workers. Of course, in Toyota's case, it's actually difficult to determine, as they (Toyota) own many of their suppliers. And keep in mind that GM and Ford have had plants rated higher in efficiency (by J.D. Powers) than some of the Toyota, Honda, and Nissan plants.

 

True - what the hell do you think the buyouts purpose is? To reduce those structural disadvantages, in part, by reducing head count. GM & Ford wouldn't be the first companies to address those concerns by buying out higher seniority workers amid plant closures. Your last comments are valid, but you seem to miss the point that the companies are downsizing. And regardless of what any of the pundits have to say, the companies can not accelerate the downsizing process without further jeopardizing their customer base. They can neither just cancel models and shut plants down, nor speed up the process of bringing out new products with out jeopardizing quality.

 

In many cases, I think the biggest "legacy" burden for GM and Ford are the legacies of "We've always done it this way" and "What does my supervisor want to hear, as opposed to NEEDS to hear?"

 

As for quality glitches among the Japanese - they are experiencing their own growing pains. Even the head of Honda has recently gone on record as saying that his company needs to crack down on quality. Realistically, however, EVERY mechanic and dealer I talk to still rates Honda and Toyota as tops for quality, so they haven't fallen that far.

 

And they don't have anything in their past like the Ford 3.8 V-6 and front-wheel-drive transmission combination that was installed in hundreds of thousands of Tauruses, Sables and Windstars. I'm convinced that a fair portion of Ford's current difficulties stem from disgruntled customers who were burned by those vehicles. In many ways, that drivetrain was an ever bigger fiasco than the Chevrolet Vega four and the Oldsmobile Diesel.

[Ovaltine]

A Public Service Message From Ovaltine.....

 

[Len_A]

In many cases, I think the biggest "legacy" burden for GM and Ford are the legacies of "We've always done it this way" and "What does my supervisor want to hear, as opposed to NEEDS to hear?"

Could be. I won't comment on that.

As for quality glitches among the Japanese - they are experiencing their own growing pains. Even the head of Honda has recently gone on record as saying that his company needs to crack down on quality. Realistically, however, EVERY mechanic and dealer I talk to still rates Honda and Toyota as tops for quality, so they haven't fallen that far.

Still lends credence to the idea that they aren't invincible.

And they don't have anything in their past like the Ford 3.8 V-6 and front-wheel-drive transmission combination that was installed in hundreds of thousands of Tauruses, Sables and Windstars. I'm convinced that a fair portion of Ford's current difficulties stem from disgruntled customers who were burned by those vehicles. In many ways, that drivetrain was an ever bigger fiasco than the Chevrolet Vega four and the Oldsmobile Diesel.

That's because they seriously cleaned up their act and people don't remember when Japanese was synonymous with junk. I was in college in the late 1970's and very early 1980's. I still remember Honda's and Datsuns with see-through rust holes in the fenders and rear quarter panels after only a few years, and very early 1980's Honda's and Toyota's with severe hail damage to their sheet metal even after a light hail storm, and serious transmission and engine troubles of their own. Then they got serious and improved. But they're not invinicible. They are having quality problems, and a few design glitches of their own, and the faster companies try to one-up their competition, the more likely problems will creep in.

[F150MANBDV]

A Public Service Message From Ovaltine.....

 

 

WOW ! GOOD POST !

These things seem to be spreading like a bad rash on these forums. There seems

to be an over abundance of lost souls within Ford and the UAW who have nothing

better to do with their time then to try to spread dissent, angst, and uncertainty

among us. The rank and file have to sit by and watch as a once proud company

and American industrial icon implodes from years of apathy, corporate greed, arrogance

or just downright stupidity !

Very sad situation all around.

I agree, best to ignore these "haters and dividers" and put our trust and faith

in Almighty God. If it is His will on these companywide buyouts then IT WILL HAPPEN and

no power in the universe will stop it....certainly no "troll"

CUT THAT CHECK !!! :happy feet: :happy feet: :happy feet:

[FactoryWorker]

You all need to grow the fuck up. Life outside of your little plant does not exist on the same plane that you are all on. Out here, we punch a clock, and to the ACH people, out here, we actually work. Life is not peaches and cream and 90% of the population do not make 30 bucks an hour for doing less than I do everyday.

You scream for health and safety, I scream for a drink of water every hour. You beg to get laid off, I beg to keep my job. You cry that unions will solve that...where in the fuck are you right now????

My job is secure, I come to work on time, I work hard, I stay over when the job needs to get done. I work on sundays for time and a half. I know for a fact that I will have a job 5 years from now. Can you say that?

Take a hard look at what you are doing for a living. Then take a look at the guy that hauls your garbage, and for the 2-ford workers family, take a look at the guy that cleans your pool. These guys have no health and safety "burdens" to consider.

Where I come from, you do the job at hand. You do not rest until it is done. I hope the best for the auto industry, but there are a handful that will fuck it up.

The uaw has turned it's back on you, and if you don't see that, sorry.

Be wise, get a free education....while that lasts.

 

 

You should go back to the school where you got your education and ask for a refund...you've been robbed.

[grbeck]

Could be. I won't comment on that.

Still lends credence to the idea that they aren't invincible.

That's because they seriously cleaned up their act and people don't remember when Japanese was synonymous with junk. I was in college in the late 1970's and very early 1980's. I still remember Honda's and Datsuns with see-through rust holes in the fenders and rear quarter panels after only a few years, and very early 1980's Honda's and Toyota's with severe hail damage to their sheet metal even after a light hail storm, and serious transmission and engine troubles of their own. Then they got serious and improved. But they're not invinicible. They are having quality problems, and a few design glitches of their own, and the faster companies try to one-up their competition, the more likely problems will creep in.

 

I never said that they were invincible...I said that they were better. Unfortunately, I see nothing that indicates that Ford and GM have beaten Toyota or Honda, which is what they must do. The only domestic brands that I've seen scoring consistently well in quality surveys are Buick, Lincoln and Mercury, which are purchased largely by senior citizens who don't push their vehicles very hard.

 

As for Japanese cars during the 1970s - yes, they were rust buckets. But remember that at that time, Hondas and Toyotas weren't competing with Cutlass Supremes and LTD Broughams. They were competing against the Vega, Pinto and Gremlin. And THOSE CARS were synonomous with junk.

[Ovaltine]

As for Japanese cars during the 1970s - yes, they were rust buckets. But remember that at that time, Hondas and Toyotas weren't competing with Cutlass Supremes and LTD Broughams. They were competing against the Vega, Pinto and Gremlin. And THOSE CARS were synonomous with junk.

 

Weren't ALL cars rust buckets in the early to mid-70's?

 

I can remember a friend of mine whose family's '73 Torino wagon had lace curtains for rear quarter panels after only 3 years of Michigan winters/salt.

 

Remember the good old days of taking your brand new car right from the dealer's lot to Ziebart or Tuff Kote Dynol to get coated internally with stinky, runny petroleum-based products to prevent rust?

 

Thank goodness the manufacturers final got a decent handle on that problem over the last couple of decades.

 

What the hell happened in the case of the Aerostar though? Those things were starting to make me think that the bad old rust days of the 70's were coming back for a command performance!

 

-Ovaltine

Edited August 30, 2006 by Ovaltine

[06StangAwesomecar]

I never said that they were invincible...I said that they were better. Unfortunately, I see nothing that indicates that Ford and GM have beaten Toyota or Honda, which is what they must do. The only domestic brands that I've seen scoring consistently well in quality surveys are Buick, Lincoln and Mercury, which are purchased largely by senior citizens who don't push their vehicles very hard.

 

As for Japanese cars during the 1970s - yes, they were rust buckets. But remember that at that time, Hondas and Toyotas weren't competing with Cutlass Supremes and LTD Broughams. They were competing against the Vega, Pinto and Gremlin. And THOSE CARS were synonomous with junk.

 

 

What do you mean you have seen nothing that indicates that Ford/Gm have beaten Toyoda/ Honda????????

Were have you been for the the last 20yrs, the domestics have made HUGE strides in improvement. Gm's warranty costs are down over 90% since the 80's, same with Ford. They have to beat them to be considerd buyable? People have to remember GM/Ford no longer make the complete cars like they did in the past. they are so dependant on suppliers now. The suppliers need to be held more and more accountable. The only differance in domestics vs imports of the 70's and 80's were the import scrap got better mileage. The imports had and still have issues. I am starting to distrust any of the Jdpowers, consumer reports, their mainly full of crap. Plus most import owners countinually lie about any real issues with their cars, what is a small issue with a import is alway a huge problem with a domestic. I work on cars, I see hundreds a year compared to most people that buy 1 and keep it for 5yrs. and only have 50 k. I see cars with 100k-400k all the time, domestic and imports. Most of the import supporters need to go work at a import garage or a domestic garage and your perception would change.

Edited August 30, 2006 by 06StangAwesomecar

[Len_A]

I never said that they were invincible...I said that they were better. Unfortunately, I see nothing that indicates that Ford and GM have beaten Toyota or Honda, which is what they must do. The only domestic brands that I've seen scoring consistently well in quality surveys are Buick, Lincoln and Mercury, which are purchased largely by senior citizens who don't push their vehicles very hard.

I'm not quite 47 years old yet, so I sure as hell am not a senior citizen. I'm an industrial sales rep, so I drive the hell out of my cars. My 2005 Mercury Montego is rated higher in quality than the 2005 Toyota Avalon, as rated by Consumer Reports. And I traded in a Ford Taurus with over 125,000 sales rep driven miles on it, for the Montego. I have all-wheel-drive, can't complain about the engine power, and have the biggest trunk of any sedan on the market. Complete with 23 to 25 miles per gallon in a 50/50 mix of city & highway driving. They're better? Not necessarily. A tough-as-nails, formidable group of competitors, for sure. Absolutely better? Only in the bigoted eyes of the media and people who keep living in the past.

[rayotte]

WOW ! GOOD POST !

These things seem to be spreading like a bad rash on these forums. There seems

to be an over abundance of lost souls within Ford and the UAW who have nothing

better to do with their time then to try to spread dissent, angst, and uncertainty

among us. The rank and file have to sit by and watch as a once proud company

and American industrial icon implodes from years of apathy, corporate greed, arrogance

or just downright stupidity !

Very sad situation all around.

I agree, best to ignore these "haters and dividers" and put our trust and faith

in Almighty God. If it is His will on these companywide buyouts then IT WILL HAPPEN and

no power in the universe will stop it....certainly no "troll"

CUT THAT CHECK !!! :happy feet: :happy feet: :happy feet:

 

I think most would be quite surprised as to whom these "trolls" really are. This thread's author is nothing more than an overt agent provacateur. Then there are those who attempt to be covert about it and come off as "expressing their opinion" or "just trying to help". Swami is an excellent example of a very poor attempt at being covert. He doesn't have the intellect to pull it off.

[dukka]

I think most would be quite surprised as to whom these "trolls" really are. This thread's author is nothing more than an overt agent provacateur. Then there are those who attempt to be covert about it and come off as "expressing their opinion" or "just trying to help". Swami is an excellent example of a very poor attempt at being covert. He doesn't have the intellect to pull it off.

 

Like it or not "trolls" have a place in here to "overt agent provacateur"...holy hell man where in god's name do you think your posting....on United Nations Feed the World Forum...it's a automotive web sight!.

[cujo]

Realistically, however, EVERY mechanic and dealer I talk to still rates Honda and Toyota as tops for quality, so they haven't fallen that far.

so why are you trolling this board? go suck some jap cock ! :kissass:

[myfamilyarelifers]

URALLFUKT - It seems to me that while you want to be a Unionized Worker Basher and talk about how we fuck the dog and the company - you are forgetting one really important thing - We the workers do just that - WE WORK and we work for the people (our families). The Middle Management are required to Manage and they do just that but wait - what about the actual Company - they are only working for the bottom line and to line their pockets off of the backs of the Workers AND the Middle Management...case in point - let's think back to STAP about 15 years ago when a Worker had a heart attack on the line and was being dragged along by the car because he was trapped underneath it - who stopped the line??? THE UNION DID YOU STUPID DUMBASS because we are about the people. While the Company talks about meeting the bottom line they actually expected the workers to WORK AROUND a dead body. So if the Union makes a contract and the company agrees - Fuck the Company because they are lining up to Fuck Us. And Middle Management faxes turn over at the drop of a hat because they do NOT have Union Protection.

 

And if some idiot thinks that we get paid too much - they have to pay us what we do because once we are all crippled or dying from cancer from the chemicals they need to use the Pay Scale to lure more workers into destroying themselves for the good of the Company.

 

I have had at least one family member working at STAP since before I was born and that is from when the plant opened - unless you have lived with that place you have no idea what it does to you, your family and your health but I guess according to URALLFUKT we should be on our knees sucking the Company C*&K - thankful for the BIGGGGGGGGGGG Money they "give" us. All I know is that my Dad retired on the 30 and out and in the last 8 years of his retirement - not a month goes by without another one dying from cancer, liver disease or any other thing. Not bad when they are only 60. These people are dying because of Ford but I guess they should have kissed the company ass and been thankful for the 30 years of backbreaking labour they endured and every dime they had to FIGHT for because the Company sure as hell didn't offer it.

 

Go back to your little cubicle and play with your little pecker...you are NOT the big Man on this forum - the Big Men are those to go to work everyday at Ford.

[Imawhosure]

myfamily has a very good point here,

 

you see; today while assembly and stamping plants still suck, they are cleaned up compared to what they were just 20yrs ago.

 

The people who worked in car plants back then had a lot more health issues than today. Now everything is thought of in ergonomics terms, where before it was GET IT, OR GET LOST.

 

The people who made Ford and GM viable for years when work was at least 2 times more dangerous than it is now are retired, or certainly eligible, or close.

 

The reason these packages are the way they are is------------>if you worked back then, it was hard, hard, work.......and in many cases, dangerous.

 

This is not to say that todays autoworkers do not work hard, they actually assemble more of the car per person than those that came before them. But the next time you here about a "MSDS," or see the stop signs to stop MPL, or notice the ventilators near the paint departments, understand that these changes are very recent. It is for our protection.

 

Myfamilys people fought the fight to give us these things, and are obviously paying the price for them not being implemented sooner. If anyone deserves something from Ford, it is those who gave up their health or life to feed their familys, and allow a company to grow.

 

Many youngsters probably would not see it that way, but without the sacrifices made, not only would Ford not be there to even offer a buyout, but it would not have been there to employ you in the first place; giving you a chance to make more than you could have most anywhere else in the manufacturing world while employed in the past.

 

We see employees whos' plants are scheduled to close very, very, unhappy. They are unhappy not because Ford sucks, not because Ford is a bunch of slavedrivers, not because Ford screwed the pooch; but rather because they know in this day and age, FORD PAYS, and pays well.........not to mention offer every insurance known to man.

 

Work hard? Yes we do!!!!! Deserve it?? Yes we do!!!!! Can we find it by going down the street and applying at another manufacturer????? No!!!!!

 

So then, I ask you GOOD workers in plants that are scheduled to close, to remember who it was that played the system, said "FUCK FORD," complained about things incessantly, etc. Remind them of what they said!!!!!

 

If you do not take the buyout, we look forward to you returning to us ASAP. We as a group must realize that we not only work for ourselves, we work for your opportunity to return.

 

Myfamilys forefathers would've done it, and so should we too!!!!! Anyone who is not willing should do all that remain at Ford a favor; and make like a tree and LEAF!!!!!!!

[mikem12]

Ya know, people in third world do not have the option to not work 16 hour days. 10 year old girls work 16 hours 7 days 365. If you think anyone is going to pity a line worker in America, think again. It is fucked up I know. Bush's MASTER plan was to get all the countries to be like us, and it didnt work.

 

 

 

go back to India, Pakistan or Mexico, where ever the hell you are from and bitch to your own government about the conditions. If you don't like the way the workers there are being treated then, go back home and fight to make the changes better. Bush Master? either you are very young or very stupid.

 

 

sorry but I won't change my standard of living because don't think it is fair.

 

 

Mike

 

 

notice also, I didn't refer to you as a jealous money grubbing little ball sucker who believes the world owes you a throne to be worshiped from.

[chicagosvoice]

My opinion is that URALLFUKT is still mad for getting fired for drinking on the job at the local sperm bank. He talks about no water for an hour? He may be right because anyone knows it is imposible to drink when there is a cock in your mouth. URALLFUKT, do everyone a favor and put a gun in your mouth instead.

 

Maybe you can get a job as Mark Fields personal sperm bank.

 

:tequila:

[integrity]

You all need to grow the fuck up. Life outside of your little plant does not exist on the same plane that you are all on. Out here, we punch a clock, and to the ACH people, out here, we actually work. Life is not peaches and cream and 90% of the population do not make 30 bucks an hour for doing less than I do everyday.

You scream for health and safety, I scream for a drink of water every hour. You beg to get laid off, I beg to keep my job. You cry that unions will solve that...where in the fuck are you right now????

My job is secure, I come to work on time, I work hard, I stay over when the job needs to get done. I work on sundays for time and a half. I know for a fact that I will have a job 5 years from now. Can you say that?

Take a hard look at what you are doing for a living. Then take a look at the guy that hauls your garbage, and for the 2-ford workers family, take a look at the guy that cleans your pool. These guys have no health and safety "burdens" to consider.

Where I come from, you do the job at hand. You do not rest until it is done. I hope the best for the auto industry, but there are a handful that will fuck it up.

The uaw has turned it's back on you, and if you don't see that, sorry.

Be wise, get a free education....while that lasts.

wow, sorry your so upset. i agree with many things you said about your work ethic. however, i disagree with your statement the uaw has turned there backs. when that happens and wages benifits etc are lost, your wages no matter how small they be, will also calapse. wages and benifits are adjusted everywhere to the standards that the union has achieved for their membership. yes believe it or not. you sound like a real american worker, hats off to you.

[TCAP'er]

My opinion is that URALLFUKT is still mad for getting fired for drinking on the job at the local sperm bank. He talks about no water for an hour? He may be right because anyone knows it is imposible to drink when there is a cock in your mouth. URALLFUKT, do everyone a favor and put a gun in your mouth instead.

 

Maybe you can get a job as Mark Fields personal sperm bank.

 

:tequila:

 

True DAT!!! this URALLFUKT is a MOFO freakin idiot to the N-th degree. As I said in the other post, his mother should of done everyones a favor, and kill this stupid BITCH when he first borned, then ..again..WAIT...he could be a FUCKEN TEST TUBE BABY for all we know. ((((LMAO))), this URALLFUKT freak is definitely NOT from around here. Hey URALLFUKT did your TEST TUBE got contaminated? or your MOTHER gave birth to you up side down, and thru her shit hole instead???..lol...hahahaha. You fucken idiot!!!

[Maximus]

True DAT!!! this URALLFUKT is a MOFO freakin idiot to the N-th degree. As I said in the other post, his mother should of done everyones a favor, and kill this stupid BITCH when he first borned, then ..again..WAIT...he could be a FUCKEN TEST TUBE BABY for all we know. ((((LMAO))), this URALLFUKT freak is definitely NOT from around here. Hey URALLFUKT did your TEST TUBE got contaminated? or your MOTHER gave birth to you up side down, and thru her shit hole instead???..lol...hahahaha. You fucken idiot!!!

 

After attempting to decipher your words I find it hard to believe you are able to turn on your computer, let alone assemble an automobile.

[davdog]

URALLFUKT - It seems to me that while you want to be a Unionized Worker Basher and talk about how we fuck the dog and the company - you are forgetting one really important thing - We the workers do just that - WE WORK and we work for the people (our families). The Middle Management are required to Manage and they do just that but wait - what about the actual Company - they are only working for the bottom line and to line their pockets off of the backs of the Workers AND the Middle Management...case in point - let's think back to STAP about 15 years ago when a Worker had a heart attack on the line and was being dragged along by the car because he was trapped underneath it - who stopped the line??? THE UNION DID YOU STUPID DUMBASS because we are about the people. While the Company talks about meeting the bottom line they actually expected the workers to WORK AROUND a dead body. So if the Union makes a contract and the company agrees - Fuck the Company because they are lining up to Fuck Us. And Middle Management faxes turn over at the drop of a hat because they do NOT have Union Protection.

 

And if some idiot thinks that we get paid too much - they have to pay us what we do because once we are all crippled or dying from cancer from the chemicals they need to use the Pay Scale to lure more workers into destroying themselves for the good of the Company.

 

I have had at least one family member working at STAP since before I was born and that is from when the plant opened - unless you have lived with that place you have no idea what it does to you, your family and your health but I guess according to URALLFUKT we should be on our knees sucking the Company C*&K - thankful for the BIGGGGGGGGGGG Money they "give" us. All I know is that my Dad retired on the 30 and out and in the last 8 years of his retirement - not a month goes by without another one dying from cancer, liver disease or any other thing. Not bad when they are only 60. These people are dying because of Ford but I guess they should have kissed the company ass and been thankful for the 30 years of backbreaking labour they endured and every dime they had to FIGHT for because the Company sure as hell didn't offer it.

 

Go back to your little cubicle and play with your little pecker...you are NOT the big Man on this forum - the Big Men are those to go to work everyday at Ford.

 

 

What a total crock of shit. My dad used to have to walk 82 miles to school on one leg in the winter. You're going to find out what real jobs and market wages are soon enough.