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theoldwizard

NA Transit "abandoned" ?

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Other than the redesigned driveshaft (which took years !) I have not seen any "significant" improvements in this vehicle (skipping over the soon to be released electric version).  Heck, they even stopped offering a diesel engine option !

 

A couple of major areas of improvement come to mind :

  1. A high end interior (Titanium) for the passenger van.
  2. A complete re-thinking of the rear axle.
  • Get rid of that ridiculous set up where you have to pull the rear axle to change the brake rotors
  • Widen the DRW version so that the second set of wheels is OUTSIDE the body (like on all SuperDuty pickups)

 

I am sure there are other areas that need improvement.

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5 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

 

  1. A high end interior (Titanium) for the passenger van.

 

In the grand scheme of things Ford hasn't offered a nicer interior on a full size van since what? the 1990s?

 

There is no market for it and if you really want one, why not go with a conversion van? 

Also part of the reason vans are protiflble is they don't need to be updated as much...as proven by the Ecoline not getting a huge update since 1990s or so. 

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1 hour ago, silvrsvt said:

 

In the grand scheme of things Ford hasn't offered a nicer interior on a full size van since what? the 1990s?

 

There is no market for it and if you really want one, why not go with a conversion van? 

Also part of the reason vans are protiflble is they don't need to be updated as much...as proven by the Ecoline not getting a huge update since 1990s or so. 

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a conversion van. 

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5 minutes ago, ice-capades said:

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a conversion van. 


Not often, and when you do they are generally an older model.  With that said, I do recall really enjoying traveling in them when I was growing up.  They were super comfortable. 

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Here's the Window Sticker for a 2020 Transit 350 MR Passenger Van XLT AWD that was a retail order placed in January. It was delivered 07/29/2020 and now in stock after the customer cancelled. Nice vehicle but selling a pretty well equipped (MSRP = $57,780) Black Transit Passenger Van may not be easy.  

1FBAX9CG7LKA88166_WS.pdf

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1 minute ago, tbone said:


Not often, and when you do they are generally an older model.  With that said, I do recall really enjoying traveling in them when I was growing up.  They were super comfortable. 

 

Exactly... The only ones you see are older units. 

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6 hours ago, ice-capades said:

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a conversion van. 

 

I might be conflaguating them with vans that modified into campers or camper style vehicles. I have a place down the street that sells them and buses.

 

 

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16 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

In the grand scheme of things Ford hasn't offered a nicer interior on a full size van since what? the 1990s?

 

From Wikipedia 

Quote

For 2001, the Chateau was dropped, replaced by the E-150 Traveler; due to low sales, it was dropped after a single model year.

 

The bottom line is the rear seats in the Transit are TERRIBLE !  That one side-by-side would not even hold two teenagers let alone two adults !

Edited by theoldwizard

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21 hours ago, theoldwizard said:
  • Get rid of that ridiculous set up where you have to pull the rear axle to change the brake rotors
  • Widen the DRW version so that the second set of wheels is OUTSIDE the body (like on all SuperDuty pickups)

 

No comments on this area that needs improvement ?  I am sure that owners of the high roof vans would really enjoy a wider stance and I hate to see what the up charge is for rear rotor replacement compared to an F150 !

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27 minutes ago, theoldwizard said:

 

No comments on this area that needs improvement ?  I am sure that owners of the high roof vans would really enjoy a wider stance and I hate to see what the up charge is for rear rotor replacement compared to an F150 !

 

After reading your "concern" over the rear rotors, I went to youtube to see just how bad it would be....doesn't seem too awful hard to pop out the axles. But, I get where you are coming from. More "commonality" with F-Series in areas like axles and brake parts would def be good for the profit margins.

Edited by twintornados

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On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 8:52 AM, theoldwizard said:

 

  • Widen the DRW version so that the second set of wheels is OUTSIDE the body (like on all SuperDuty pickups)

 

I think there is a regulation in Europe that you can't have wheels out past the body work. I believe that is why Ford can't sell Bronco in Europe.

 

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Transit uses a full float rear axle vs the F150 and As far as serviceability, the rotors are a nearly a non-issue. (1.3 hours a side more for Transit than F150) In reality, it doesn't take much, if any, more effort than a traditional knockoff like you are used to. It is a far cry easier than the old style full float rear end where the HUB had to come off to get the rotor off. Moving the rotor outboard would necessitate a lot of engineering changes as well. Also, with expanded track width for DRW, wouldn't it need clearance lights to be legal in most states?  

 

I fail to still see what the big deal is with dropping the diesel. 3.5 GTDI hammers that thing in every way (reliability, power, cost of ownership) except MPG. Fleets don't buy them because of cost of ownership.  

 

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13 hours ago, YT90SC said:

Transit uses a full float rear axle vs the F150 and As far as serviceability, the rotors are a nearly a non-issue. (1.3 hours a side more for Transit than F150)

 

That is about $200 in labor and you know they are going to hit you for seals and re-filling the differential !  Check with T350 owners who haul heavy loads,  Rear pads and rotors on last about 25K-30K miles !

 

13 hours ago, YT90SC said:

 It is a far cry easier than the old style full float rear end where the HUB had to come off to get the rotor off. Moving the rotor outboard would necessitate a lot of engineering changes as well. Also, with expanded track width for DRW, wouldn't it need clearance lights to be legal in most states?  

 

On 9/2/2020 at 7:03 AM, twintornados said:

More "commonality" with F-Series in areas like axles and brake parts would def be good for the profit margins.

 

Commonality is one thing.  SAFETY is another.  Those tall Transit look so unstable !  Besides, when was the last time you heard of an F-Series break an axle and watch the wheel go flying !

 

 

13 hours ago, YT90SC said:

I fail to still see what the big deal is with dropping the diesel. 3.5 GTDI hammers that thing in every way (reliability, power, cost of ownership) except MPG. Fleets don't buy them because of cost of ownership.  

 

I won't argue with you there !  Diesel engine only make sense for vehicles that are loaded near GVWR and drive over 50k/year !  Still, if a customer wants one, you should take his money !

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57 minutes ago, theoldwizard said:

Commonality is one thing.  SAFETY is another.  Those tall Transit look so unstable !  Besides, when was the last time you heard of an F-Series break an axle and watch the wheel go flying !

 

Looks no more or less stable than E-Series or any other tall vehicle. The axle design of Transit vs F-Series can be merged to save $$$ on the production lines.

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4 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

 

That is about $200 in labor and you know they are going to hit you for seals and re-filling the differential !  Check with T350 owners who haul heavy loads,  Rear pads and rotors on last about 25K-30K miles !

 

 

 

Commonality is one thing.  SAFETY is another.  Those tall Transit look so unstable !  Besides, when was the last time you heard of an F-Series break an axle and watch the wheel go flying !

 

 

 

I won't argue with you there !  Diesel engine only make sense for vehicles that are loaded near GVWR and drive over 50k/year !  Still, if a customer wants one, you should take his money !

 

The axle to hub seals are reuseable. Remember, you are NOT removing the hub. You lose a drop or two of fluid at most. Still cheaper and easier than changing rotors on other floaters with non-knockoffs. You really need a floater in 250 and above, so the only version that would benefit switching to a semi float would be the lightest duty, and that is not enough to change for. 

I'd bet even high roof Transits have a lower center of gravity than the Econoswine they replace.   

AS far as diesel. No one was buying them. While I agree it would be nice to offer an option, even with a shitty engine like that, the cost to support them, get them emission certified and all must be astronomical.  

Edited by YT90SC

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On 9/3/2020 at 12:47 PM, YT90SC said:

 

The axle to hub seals are reuseable.

 

But I will bet most dealerships call for it to be replaced "just in case" !

 

On 9/3/2020 at 12:47 PM, YT90SC said:

Remember, you are NOT removing the hub. You lose a drop or two of fluid at most. Still cheaper and easier than changing rotors on other floaters with non-knockoffs. You really need a floater in 250 and above, so the only version that would benefit switching to a semi float would be the lightest duty, and that is not enough to change for. 

 

 

So you are arguing this is a  better design.  Why is it not used on SuperDuty pickups ?

 

On 9/3/2020 at 12:47 PM, YT90SC said:

I'd bet even high roof Transits have a lower center of gravity than the Econoswine they replace.   

 

That is your OPINION (no data).  So my OPINION is, you are incorrect.

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3 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

 

But I will bet most dealerships call for it to be replaced "just in case" !

 

 

 

So you are arguing this is a  better design.  Why is it not used on SuperDuty pickups ?

 

 

That is your OPINION (no data).  So my OPINION is, you are incorrect.

 

The axle o rings are $9.83 apiece, full boat list. I wouldn't call that a deal breaker. If you are going strictly by the WSM, all the hardware (except the o ring) should be replaced, including caliper mount bolts and whatnot. It doesn't need to be, but it is there in the WSM. Ford considers ALL caliper mount bolts OTUP. 

 

You're right, the knockoff rotor on the SRW Super Duty is FAR superior serviceability wise. However all DRW SD require the axle and hub to be removed, the wheel studs to be pressed/pounded out, the rotor knocked off, then the new rotor reinstalled, the studs pressed in (if they weren't damaged on removal), bearings have to be packed and a new seal. Those seals list in the $25 to $40 dollar range dependant on which axle it has. Then you have to hoist the heavy motherf**ker back onto the axle and start the G damn bearing nut while not damaging that expensive and fragile seal. You can't have knockoffs on a Super Duty DRW because you would have to have three elements held by the wheel studs, which is unsafe. Transit, however, is the same rotor design, SRW or DRW. I think you are still not understanding how extremely easy it is to remove the axles. If you're shadetreeing, or a salaried fleet mechanic, you would actually like the design for its ease. I do too, because it is definitely a money maker at 1.3/side. 

 

As for the stability maybe I am wrong, but drive them aggressively back to back. Your opinion will most likely change.   

 

On a side note, I  absolutely without a doubt  H-A-T-E  feeling like I am defending overall serviceability on Transit. There is no shortage of truly stupid engineering on them. Like why in the blue f**k they decided to put the batteries under the seat, location of the fuse panels, no doghouse, or the trans's serviceability difficulty if the subframe has ever been exposed to water. However, the "every day" maintenance is pretty easy (even the dumbass batteries), as is heavy line engine once you figure out that the bumper cover and radiator support are SUPER easy to remove.

Edited by YT90SC

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On 9/5/2020 at 9:57 AM, YT90SC said:

 

The axle o rings are $9.83 apiece, full boat list. I wouldn't call that a deal breaker.

 

I don't know who your supplier is but the "typical" internet price for Motorcraft BRS192 is $20-$30, plus labor.  That will add an additional $75+ to your bill.

 

On 9/5/2020 at 9:57 AM, YT90SC said:

You're right, the knockoff rotor on the SRW Super Duty is FAR superior serviceability wise. However all DRW SD require the axle and hub to be removed, the wheel studs to be pressed/pounded out, the rotor knocked off, then the new rotor reinstalled, the studs pressed in (if they weren't damaged on removal), bearings have to be packed and a new seal.

 

Great feedback on the DRW SUperDuty.  I had no idea they were that expensive/difficult.

 

On 9/5/2020 at 9:57 AM, YT90SC said:

As for the stability maybe I am wrong, but drive them aggressively back to back. Your opinion will most likely change.   

 

I still own a '98 E150.  It gets "pushed around" on the highway pretty bad when there is a cross wind.  A tall Transit scares me just looking at it !

 

On 9/5/2020 at 9:57 AM, YT90SC said:

... or the trans's serviceability difficulty if the subframe has ever been exposed to water. However, the "every day" maintenance is pretty easy (even the dumbass batteries), as is heavy line engine once you figure out that the bumper cover and radiator support are SUPER easy to remove.

 

So is this subframe another corrosion issue like the Windstar rear axle or some Taurus sub frames ?

 

 

I have to wonder, how many years will go by before there are any significant changes to the Transit.  More importantly, will engineering of this vehicle be moved to the US as FoE continues to shrink.

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6 hours ago, theoldwizard said:

 

So is this subframe another corrosion issue like the Windstar rear axle or some Taurus sub frames ?

 

 

Not with the K member/frame itself, rather how it is attached to the body. There is a LONG bolt that runs though the bottom part of the frame, REAR of the front control arm, then through the frame and into the body. It always rusts/seizes to the arm. If you are VERY VERY lucky, (low miles, no water exposure) you can get it out with an impact. If just VERY lucky, you turn it out with a breaker bar with a cheater. IF you are just lucky, you cut the head off, hammer the subframe down until you can cut the bolt free between the frame and the body and press the remainder of the bolt out of the arm. IF all else fails, you blue wrench the whole works, without damaging the subframe, and get new control arms. The crappy thing is that it doesn't actually hold the trans. It is just in the way for trans removal. The pan/filter/valve body *can* be accessed if you are determined enough. 

 

To get the actual trans cross member bolts, you have to heat the steel bushings where the bolts go into the body. That part sounds worse than it is, there is plenty of access.  

 

As for Euro engineering, I'm just glad the bastards have studs and not wheel bolts. 

 

I get your worry about high winds. I haven't had the "luxury" of driving any of tall roof in those conditions. I can attest that normal Econoline and bread trucks DO suck ass though. 😁  

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On 9/1/2020 at 7:52 AM, theoldwizard said:

Other than the redesigned driveshaft (which took years !) I have not seen any "significant" improvements in this vehicle (skipping over the soon to be released electric version).  Heck, they even stopped offering a diesel engine option !

 

A couple of major areas of improvement come to mind :

  1. A high end interior (Titanium) for the passenger van.
  2. A complete re-thinking of the rear axle.
  • Get rid of that ridiculous set up where you have to pull the rear axle to change the brake rotors
  • Widen the DRW version so that the second set of wheels is OUTSIDE the body (like on all SuperDuty pickups)

 

I am sure there are other areas that need improvement.

 

1) I agree, there should be a nicer version with more comfortable, bigger seats at the expense of less seating.

2) I don't think a DRW sticking out of the body would work with the sliding door.

 

On 9/1/2020 at 1:26 PM, silvrsvt said:

 

In the grand scheme of things Ford hasn't offered a nicer interior on a full size van since what? the 1990s?

 

There is no market for it and if you really want one, why not go with a conversion van? 

Also part of the reason vans are protiflble is they don't need to be updated as much...as proven by the Ecoline not getting a huge update since 1990s or so. 

 

The Chateau was available on E150 and E350 through 2007. After that, they offered the "XLT Premium" which was basically the same thing as the Chateau until they stopped making E-Series passenger vans. Conversion vans are still available. Camper conversions are very popular right now. Sprinters are the #1 choice and the Promasters are gaining traction with their low floor.  

 

On 9/2/2020 at 5:30 AM, theoldwizard said:

 

From Wikipedia 

 

The bottom line is the rear seats in the Transit are TERRIBLE !  That one side-by-side would not even hold two teenagers let alone two adults !

 

Exactly! The seats in the Sprinter are much nicer. Maybe Ford is thinking that if you want to haul people in nicer seats, buy an Expedition.

Edited by NLPRacing

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1 hour ago, YT90SC said:

I get your worry about high winds. I haven't had the "luxury" of driving any of tall roof in those conditions. I can attest that normal Econoline and bread trucks DO suck ass though. 😁  

 

I've driven a few passenger & cargo models of the mid-roof Transit and from experience, they are very stable. From behind the wheel, you would never know that the roof was so tall. 

 

The tall roof with DRW seems to handle well on the track too. 

 

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18 hours ago, NLPRacing said:

 

1) I agree, there should be a nicer version with more comfortable, bigger seats at the expense of less seating.

2) I don't think a DRW sticking out of the body would work with the sliding door.

 

There was (is ?) a company that made a DRW kit for E150-E350 that put the wheels outboard.  It even came with fender flares.  They replaced the lever that kicked the sliding door out.

 

 

18 hours ago, NLPRacing said:

 

 

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On 9/2/2020 at 7:35 PM, YT90SC said:

Transit uses a full float rear axle ....

 

On 9/5/2020 at 10:02 AM, YT90SC said:

 

I would not call that a "full floating" axle.  I always that that a full floater would retain the hub and wheel even it the axle shaft broke.

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