Ford and Red Bull Already Developing "Strategically Important" EV Together

[DeluxeStang]

58 minutes ago, akirby said:

Oh wait he did say secret.  Still I think it’s just an accelerated development team.  And I’d still bet on a less expensive Maverick type BEV.

That would be awesome. I just don't know if they would assign someone from red bull to work on a small pickup truck that already has decentish areo by truck standards. 

[rmc523]

Maybe we're set for another aero-150:

 

[akirby]

58 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

That would be awesome. I just don't know if they would assign someone from red bull to work on a small pickup truck that already has decentish areo by truck standards. 

IF my guess is close then they probably need the best aero design possible to extend the range of the smaller cheaper batteries.  

[silvrsvt]

5 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Americans can adapt when conditions require it, so who’s to say market demand won’t change, at least temporarily?  After the oil crisis in 70s buyers suddenly embraced tiny cars like Civics and Corollas.  Longer-term buyers preferred inefficient SUVs, after gas got cheaper, but it shows change can happen quickly when needed.

 

Your also talking about what happened almost 50 years ago and with that do you think vans or personal coupes are going to make a come back? The reason Trucks and SUVs are so popular is they are more flexible (real or imagined) then a sedan. A Maverick can fit a washing machine in the back of it in a pinch, a Civic or Corolla wouldn't be able to. 

 

Given how much push back (well real or imagined) that BEVs have, selling a car that only gets 200 miles range in perfect conditions and would maybe get 140 miles or less in range when its cold out is a complete non starter for the vast majority of people-esp ones that don't have easy access to charging at home, which would be what a lower end BEV would be pointed at-and those people normally live in high density housing. 

 

What needs to happen is someone needs to offer a product that is roughly the size of the Bronco Sport/Escape, that gets roughly 280-300 miles range when 100% charged and can be charged up to 80% or so in less than 20 minutes at a level 3-4 charger or 8 hours on a level 2 charger at home for about 30-40K and be turn a profit on it. 

 

Trying to sell a focus sized car like that would be "stupid" at this point. 

[silvrsvt]

5 hours ago, fuzzymoomoo said:

The first one is slated to open sometime next year if I’m not mistaken. I’m skeptical production can ramp up fast enough to really have any effect on prices within a year, especially if commodity prices keep rising the way they are. 

 

I wouldn't expect it happen till after 2025 at the earliest...CY not MY

[Rick73]

32 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Your also talking about what happened almost 50 years ago and with that do you think vans or personal coupes are going to make a come back? The reason Trucks and SUVs are so popular is they are more flexible (real or imagined) then a sedan. A Maverick can fit a washing machine in the back of it in a pinch, a Civic or Corolla wouldn't be able to. 

 

Given how much push back (well real or imagined) that BEVs have, selling a car that only gets 200 miles range in perfect conditions and would maybe get 140 miles or less in range when its cold out is a complete non starter for the vast majority of people-esp ones that don't have easy access to charging at home, which would be what a lower end BEV would be pointed at-and those people normally live in high density housing. 

 

What needs to happen is someone needs to offer a product that is roughly the size of the Bronco Sport/Escape, that gets roughly 280-300 miles range when 100% charged and can be charged up to 80% or so in less than 20 minutes at a level 3-4 charger or 8 hours on a level 2 charger at home for about 30-40K and be turn a profit on it. 

 

Trying to sell a focus sized car like that would be "stupid" at this point. 

Perhaps stupid, but does it make more sense to try sell vehicles most people can’t afford?  I agree that the vehicle you describe is “ideal”, but it’s not a real option at this time if not affordable.  “What needs to happen” is a great goal for future vehicles, but presently wishful thinking.
 

Europe is (or has been) struggling with EV affordability for some time.  The best selling cars in Germany (and some other countries) are relatively affordable.  Other than Tesla 3, many of the most popular are at lower end of cost.  The VW e-Up in Germany is right up there with Tesla 3 in volume according to data I have seen.

https://insideevs.com/news/561773/vw-bringing-back-eup-europe/

 

And need for affordable BEVs in Europe is not lost on Hyundai either.  Granted, US population may be able to afford slightly more expensive vehicles, but auto industry better accept financial limitations of what buyers can afford.  Much of the talk out of Ford is essentially that in my opinion.
 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1136554_report-hyundai-is-developing-a-20-000-ev-for-europe

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, akirby said:

IF my guess is close then they probably need the best aero design possible to extend the range of the smaller cheaper batteries.  

Solid point, thought about this as well. If it is a truck, I hope the design is quite radical. Ford should take a page out of Dodge's playbook. The best looking design dodge has had in awhile is their new ev muscle car. Having the higher, squared off, and more attractive front end with a massive passthrough for areo was genius. Hopefully ford incorporates something like that into future truck design. Combine that with cab forward proportions and flared wheel arches similar to the raptor, and you would have something really striking. 

[rperez817]

Looks like Ford Performance has several hi-po BEV products now and coming soon, including collaboration with Red Bull.

 

 

 

[akirby]

1 hour ago, rperez817 said:

Looks like Ford Performance has several hi-po BEV products now and coming soon, including collaboration with Red Bull.

 

Those 4 vehicles already exist.  Only the truck in the middle is new.  And these aren’t production vehicles just one off concepts.

[silvrsvt]

4 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Perhaps stupid, but does it make more sense to try sell vehicles most people can’t afford?  I agree that the vehicle you describe is “ideal”, but it’s not a real option at this time if not affordable.  “What needs to happen” is a great goal for future vehicles, but presently wishful thinking.
 

Europe is (or has been) struggling with EV affordability for some time.  The best selling cars in Germany (and some other countries) are relatively affordable.  Other than Tesla 3, many of the most popular are at lower end of cost.  The VW e-Up in Germany is right up there with Tesla 3 in volume according to data I have seen.

https://insideevs.com/news/561773/vw-bringing-back-eup-europe/

 

And need for affordable BEVs in Europe is not lost on Hyundai either.  Granted, US population may be able to afford slightly more expensive vehicles, but auto industry better accept financial limitations of what buyers can afford.  Much of the talk out of Ford is essentially that in my opinion.
 

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1136554_report-hyundai-is-developing-a-20-000-ev-for-europe

 

Here lies the issue-small cars are more accepted in other places of the world like the EU due to urbanization and better/subsidized mass transit options like trains. 

 

As for the E up...look at this

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-plans-restart-sales-e-electric-minicar-demand-surges-affordable-evs#:~:text=VW stopped selling the e,according to German press reports.

VW stopped selling the e-Up in 2020 when government incentives to encourage EV purchases caused a surge in demand. The model was not designed for high volumes and selling it with discounts was not profitable, according to German press reports.

 

Small cars in the US (at least from what was the big 3) where sold to meet CAFE regulations and on price-they never made money or much money on the Escort, Focus or Fiesta. Making CAFE I'm going to assume going forward isn't going to be as big of deal going forward. 

 

Look at the reintroduction of the Mini to the market-the current products are enormous vs what the original was. 

 

Also the whole self driving car thing that automakers are looking at doing (which is technically impossible without spending a huge amount of money in infrastructure updates) I'm thinking was to be the solution for low cost vehicles-ride sharing would replace the entry market because for the next 10-20 years it would be hard to make a BEV that the market wanted and make money on it. A self driving pod would have been the solution to that. 

[rperez817]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

And these aren’t production vehicles just one off concepts.

 

Good point, hopefully some aspects of the concepts will eventually make their way into parts and components that can purchased from the Ford Performance Parts catalog like the Eluminator motor. ELUMINATOR™ MACH E ELECTRIC MOTOR| Part Details for M-9000-MACHE | Ford Performance Parts

[Rick73]

17 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

As for the E up...look at this

https://europe.autonews.com/automakers/vw-plans-restart-sales-e-electric-minicar-demand-surges-affordable-evs#:~:text=VW stopped selling the e,according to German press reports.

The VW e-Up is indeed very small by American standards, but seems interesting nonetheless.  If nothing else, published data shows why designing small electric vehicles must be quite difficult when intended use is more than as a city car.

 

The e-Up is essentially similar in size to the Chevy Spark, now discontinued after 2022.  Pictures make the e-Up interior appear roomy for its size.  The biggest difference seems to be that e-Up weighs over 2,700 pounds, making it about 500 pounds heavier.  It is tiny, but weighs as much as early Mustangs, or as much as Civics and Corollas from just a few years back.  It is also much heavier than Miatas, Fiat 500, and other cars sold in North America.  Safety would remain an issue due to small size, but it’s not as bad as Smart or other tiny cars sold by Toyota, Honda, etc.  There is little doubt that market for such a small electric car would be limited, but at the right price it may surprise if it was a decent car.  I’m aware converted EVs like Smart, Fiat 500, and Chevy Spark have not been that successful; in large part because of high relative cost and short range.

 

Anyway, what all these vehicles have in common are relatively high drag coefficients which limits real world highway range.  As an example, VW published e-Up energy consumption in city and mild weather at only 101 Watt-hours per km, but at steady 110 kph (68 MPH), energy consumption goes up to 175 Wh per km.  By comparison, many larger and aerodynamic BEV sedans have similar city to highway numbers.  This indicates to me that lowering Cd on smaller vehicles is crucial.

[silvrsvt]

59 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

This indicates to me that lowering Cd on smaller vehicles is crucial.

The issue is that packaging of smaller cars makes it hard to do since you run out is space to do so. Having fancy or smooth aerodynamics would impact the interior packaging on small cars. 
 

most B sized cars are shaped like boxes to get the most interior space in them and I’m assuming that they have rather high frontal areas too. 

[silvrsvt]

 

[DeluxeStang]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Can't wait to see the thing in it's entirety. Is it just me, or does it look like they drastically shortened the top of the bed? Could be some very interesting design work going on there. 

[pffan1990]

3 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Is it just me, or does it look like they drastically shortened the top of the bed? Could be some very interesting design work going on there. 

 

I noticed that too. There also appears to be a chase rack on the bed behind the cab. It's slightly taller than the cab roof which I think provides aerodynamics over the open bed.

Edited February 9, 2023 by pffan1990
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