Ford pushes back EV target, warns of wider losses due to slower-than-expected adoption

[AM222]

8 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Citation for your info?

Stellantis profits soar 37% in first half of the year as electric vehicle sales rise, ET Auto (indiatimes.com)

Doesn't allow quotes to be posted.

[Rick73]

53 minutes ago, jasonj80 said:

The biggest problem Tesla and others are running into installing chargers is the condition of the electric grid in those locations. 

The electric grid and its source of incremental energy is what concerns me most.  Unfortunately, average Americans do not understand issues, and are being led by people who are not being completely honest, or transparent.  I can remain objective and see both the good and bad of most anything, including electrification, but extremist at both ends do not seem willing to remain objective.

[Sherminator98]

59 minutes ago, AM222 said:

Stellantis profits soar 37% in first half of the year as electric vehicle sales rise, ET Auto (indiatimes.com)

Doesn't allow quotes to be posted.

 

from the article 

 

North America accounted for 57% of adjusted operating income and nearly half of company revenue, boosted by higher sales of Chrysler Pacifica, Dodge Charger and Durango.

 

Sales of all-electric vehicles rose by 24% to 169,000 vehicles as Stellantis

 

no mention at all of profit from EVs, just increase sales. 
 

[Rick73]

The new Fiat 500 electric from Stellantis looks like a practical City Car.  We’ll have to see if there is much demand for such a small BEV when brought to US early next year.  Its driving range per kWh is impressive, which is a good thing considering small battery, otherwise it wouldn’t go very far on a charge.

[Deanh]

3 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

from the article 

 

 

 

 

 

 

no mention at all of profit from EVs, just increase sales. 
 

very mis-leading if you ask me...a full breakdown would most liukely change the tone....

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, Deanh said:

very mis-leading if you ask me...a full breakdown would most liukely change the tone....

Absolutely, obfuscation and misdirection.

With the article saying 57% of income (profit) coming from North American operations, that would suggest 43% of the $12 billion H1 profit comes from European operations. So they’re talking about fractions of fractions of profit coming from actual EVs.

 

Without the other $10 billion or so profit coming from ICEs, I think EVs would be nowhere…..

[AM222]

6 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Absolutely, obfuscation and misdirection.

With the article saying 57% of income (profit) coming from North American operations, that would suggest 43% of the $12 billion H1 profit comes from European operations. So they’re talking about fractions of fractions of profit coming from actual EVs.

 

Without the other $10 billion or so profit coming from ICEs, I think EVs would be nowhere…..

Just a fraction of their profits, but they're now the third largest EV manufacturer in Europe.

Quote

Sales of all-electric vehicles rose by 24% to 169,000 vehicles as Stellantis became the third-largest producer of EVs in Europe

Stellantis profits soar 37% in first half of the year as electric vehicle sales rise | The Independent

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subcompact BEVs have smaller battery packs, that's why they can use ICE vehicle platforms that were designed to accommodate electrification. Opel Mokka-e shown, but its pretty much the same platform also used by other related Stellantis hatchbacks and Crossovers/SUVs. The ICE "CMP" and BEV "e-CMP" platform can share the same assembly line.

Stellantis has 3 small cars in the top 10 best-selling vehicles in Europe, even if a high percentage of them are made up of ICE/hybrid versions, they are still selling well. Small cars/CUVs are the European equivalent of big pickup trucks and large SUVs popular in the USA.

I know Ford is doing a similar thing with its upcoming Puma EV which I assume will share EV bits with the new e-Transit/Tourneo Courier, but why are they moving so slow?


One of the Puma EV's rivals, the Opel Mokka-e launched for the 2021 model year.

Edited August 12, 2023 by AM222
Added info

[jpd80]

54 minutes ago, AM222 said:

Just a fraction of their profits, but they're now the third largest EV manufacturer in Europe.

Stellantis profits soar 37% in first half of the year as electric vehicle sales rise | The Independent

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subcompact BEVs have smaller battery packs, that's why they can use ICE vehicle platforms that were designed to accommodate electrification. Opel Mokka-e shown, but its pretty much the same platform also used by other related Stellantis hatchbacks and Crossovers/SUVs. The ICE "CMP" and BEV "e-CMP" platform can share the same assembly line.

Stellantis has 3 small cars in the top 10 best-selling vehicles in Europe, even if a high percentage of them are made up of ICE/hybrid versions, they are still selling well. Small cars/CUVs are the European equivalent of big pickup trucks and large SUVs popular in the USA.

I know Ford is doing a similar thing with its upcoming Puma EV which I assume will share EV bits with the new e-Transit/Tourneo Courier, but why are they moving so slow?


One of the Puma EV's rivals, the Opel Mokka-e launched for the 2021 model year.

A bit of perspective provided in the Stellantis release (link below)

The missing detail I found is that total Stellantis European shipments in H1 were 1,478,000 so the 169,000 BEVs is roughly 11.4% of those sales a drop in the bucket by comparison. So the  majority of Stellantis Europe’s $3.5 billion income most definitely came from non-BEVs. The original article kind of lead people to believe that Europe’s BEVs were a bigger chunk of sales and revenue than is the case…

Im happy that early signs are good for Stellantis’ BEV sales but let’s not kid ourselves of where they are at the moment.

Stellantis release here, check out page 3 for regional break down of financials and volume.

https://nocache.media.stellantis.com/uploads/em/news/stellantisnvh12023pressreleasefinal-64c0b8475c204.pdf

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by jpd80

[AM222]

28 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

What you’re missing is that total Stellantis shipments in H1 in Europe were 1,478,000 so the 169,000 BEVs are a drop in the bucket by comparison. And I’d be willing to bet that the majority of the $3,4 billion income came from non BEVs

Stellantis release here,

https://nocache.media.stellantis.com/uploads/em/news/stellantisnvh12023pressreleasefinal-64c0b8475c204.pdf

 

Yes, majority of profits are from ICE sales for now (same with Ford?), the fact that they are offering EV options for their mainstream range is a start. When batteries miraculously get cheaper (lol), the BEV to ICE ratio will change.

Having models built on a modular ICE/BEV small car platform produced on the same assembly line allows manufacturers to be more flexible. 

What's Ford's EV sales in Europe for H1 of 2023? I read the Mach e sold around or close to 25,000 units in Europe in 2022. Also read battery issues will delay the new Explorer EV in Europe by half a year to Summer of 2024.

I'm just afraid of the 2030 date Ford gave for its 100% shift to an EV-only range in Europe. So many things happened in the first 3 years of the decade that have a negative impact on EV batteries (cost of materials, supply issues etc). 

Edited August 12, 2023 by AM222

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, AM222 said:

Yes, majority of profits are from ICE sales for now (same with Ford?), the fact that they are offering EV options for their mainstream range is a start. When batteries miraculously get cheaper (lol), the BEV to ICE ratio will change.

Having models built on a modular ICE/BEV small car platform produced on the same assembly line allows manufacturers to be more flexible. 

What's Ford's EV sales in Europe for H1 of 2023? I read the Mach e sold around or close to 25,000 units in Europe in 2022. Also read battery issues will delay the new Explorer EV in Europe by half a year to Summer of 2024.

I'm just afraid of the 2030 date Ford gave for its 100% shift to an EV-only range in Europe. So many things happened in the first 3 years of the decade that have a negative impact on EV batteries (cost of materials, supply issues etc). 

The point of my post wasn’t to knock Stellantis’ efforts, merely to point out the perception in the article with regards to EV impact was over stated. Yes, I realise that Ford is still basically struggling with EV sales in Europe, maybe going backwards and if truth be told, Electrified versions of Focus and escape was probably a better less disruptive strategy.
 

 

Apart for Transit, I think Ford will be mostly gone from Europe by 2030, I think they will find it all too hard and most likely retreat to North American only  sales.

Edited August 12, 2023 by jpd80

[Rick73]

10 hours ago, AM222 said:

Having models built on a modular ICE/BEV small car platform produced on the same assembly line allows manufacturers to be more flexible. 

It’s interesting that the Fiat USA video for the new Fiat 500e makes a point to mention that it will only be available as electric, though I suppose that doesn’t necessarily mean they use a BEV-specific platform.  On the other hand, the Peugeot E-208 electric shares design with Petrol-engine variants that apparently include hybrid powertrain.  Description shows a 48V system integrated with 6-speed dual clutch transmission.  That’s particularly interesting to me because Hyundai also use DCT on hybrids that achieve excellent fuel economy ratings.

 

The very low CO2-per-mile ratings for Peugeot 208 gasoline variant (posted previously) suggested fuel economy had to be around 50+ MPG, and seeing now that it’s an HEV makes more sense.

 

While the very small Fiat 500e looks “cute” (too girly for mass appeal?), in my opinion the larger and longer-range 208 electric could have much greater appeal in US, as would the hybrid variant if Stellantis can figure a way to market in NA.  I agree with description of 208 being just the right size in that it seems to balance practicality and affordability.  Dimensions are close to that of future Tesla 2 if speculation on size are somewhat accurate.

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, Rick73 said:

It’s interesting that the Fiat USA video for the new Fiat 500e makes a point to mention that it will only be available as electric, though I suppose that doesn’t necessarily mean they use a BEV-specific platform.  On the other hand, the Peugeot E-208 electric shares design with Petrol-engine variants that apparently include hybrid powertrain.  Description shows a 48V system integrated with 6-speed dual clutch transmission.  That’s particularly interesting to me because Hyundai also use DCT on hybrids that achieve excellent fuel economy ratings.

The 500e is on a completely different platform to the older petrol electric 500

 

 

6 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

The very low CO2-per-mile ratings for Peugeot 208 gasoline variant (posted previously) suggested fuel economy had to be around 50+ MPG, and seeing now that it’s an HEV makes more sense.

 

While the very small Fiat 500e looks “cute” (too girly for mass appeal?), in my opinion the larger and longer-range 208 electric could have much greater appeal in US, as would the hybrid variant if Stellantis can figure a way to market in NA.  I agree with description of 208 being just the right size in that it seems to balance practicality and affordability.  Dimensions are close to that of future Tesla 2 if speculation on size are somewhat accurate.

The 500e is vey small, there’s a reason why you don’t see many subcompact vehicles in North America.

Go up a size and there’s plenty of buyers for a compact…

[AM222]

23 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Apart for Transit, I think Ford will be mostly gone from Europe by 2030, I think they will find it all too hard and most likely retreat to North American only  sales.

I really hope it doesn't come to that point.

I read that there's a possibility the Fiesta will return as an EV based on the 2025 VW ID.2 which was recently previewed by the ID.2all Concept.

The weird thing though is if it happens, Ford will have two similar-sized unrelated models. Puma EV and Fiesta EV.

I have mixed feelings about these VW-based models because they probably won't be able to be build them outside Europe like in Thailand and China which supply vehicles to Ford's International Markets Group (IMG).

[AM222]

14 hours ago, Rick73 said:

It’s interesting that the Fiat USA video for the new Fiat 500e makes a point to mention that it will only be available as electric, though I suppose that doesn’t necessarily mean they use a BEV-specific platform.  On the other hand, the Peugeot E-208 electric shares design with Petrol-engine variants that apparently include hybrid powertrain.  

The new 500e is slightly bigger than the ICE 500 in all directions and has a rear-hinged half rear door on one side. It uses an all-new BEV platform which I believe can accommodate a larger battery pack than the first ICE-based 500e from a decade ago. Unlike the current Peugeot 208's CMP/e-CMP modular platform, which was designed for electrification, the ICE Fiat 500's mini (A-segment) platform (which was shared with the second gen Ford Ka) isn't.

Fiat 500-based Ford Ka.

Edited August 13, 2023 by AM222

[jpd80]

2 hours ago, AM222 said:

I really hope it doesn't come to that point.

I read that there's a possibility the Fiesta will return as an EV based on the 2025 VW ID.2 which was recently previewed by the ID.2all Concept.

The weird thing though is if it happens, Ford will have two similar-sized unrelated models. Puma EV and Fiesta EV.

I have mixed feelings about these VW-based models because they probably won't be able to be build them outside Europe like in Thailand and China which supply vehicles to Ford's International Markets Group (IMG).

By your own deductions, you have answered your own question.

Wth Subcompact BEV Puma confirmed and compact EV Explorer confirmed, the second crossover out to Cologne will be a compact BEV Focus sized crossover. That will give Ford three key BEVs in the most popular European segments. If those don’t ignite sales then you know what comes next…

 

And good luck to ROW buyers wanting BEVs as these will be like unobtanium outside of Europe.

Edited August 13, 2023 by jpd80

[AM222]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

By your own deductions, you have answered your own question.

Wth Subcompact BEV Puma confirmed and compact EV Explorer confirmed, the second crossover out to Cologne will be a compact BEV Focus sized crossover. That will give Ford three key BEVs in the most popular European segments. If those don’t ignite sales then you know what comes next…

Is this the Crossover Coupe partnered with the Explorer EV? It better have a lower starting price than the Explorer EV's estimated "under €45,000" (US$50,000). 
 

Edited August 13, 2023 by AM222

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, AM222 said:

The new 500e is slightly bigger than the ICE 500 in all directions and has a rear-hinged half rear door on one side. It uses an all-new BEV platform which I believe can accommodate a larger battery pack than the first ICE-based 500e from a decade ago. Unlike the current Peugeot 208's CMP/e-CMP modular platform, which was designed for electrification, the ICE Fiat 500's mini (A-segment) platform (which was shared with the second gen Ford Ka) isn't.
 

You’re right in that Fiat calls it all new.  From what I can find, the 3+1 model is the one with additional rear door on passenger side meant to improve rear seat access.  There’s little doubt it’s a small car best for two adults which would be great as a city car for couples.  Use of back seat would be limited, not unlike trying to put adults in back of a classic Mustang.  That wasn’t easy or comfortable either but didn’t discourage  me from buying two of them.

 

Fiat states range up to 320 km in WLTP test with larger battery, but that when used purely for urban driving, range increases up to 460 km.  That’s a huge difference which suggest highway range is rather poor.  For a BEV the 500e is small and light, but I expect not very aerodynamic (relative to battery capacity). When USA version is eventually tested at steady 75 MPH, it seems likely to me that range will be disappointing.

[Rick73]

14 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The 500e is vey small, there’s a reason why you don’t see many subcompact vehicles in North America.

Go up a size and there’s plenty of buyers for a compact…

You’re right, in NA there’s a size buyers just don’t seem to want to go smaller with very few exceptions.  I don’t recall seeing many Fiat 500 in my area, though occasionally I’d notice a Smart Car.  Driving a car that small probably requires a different mindset much like riding a motorcycle.  There are some of those also, but not many.

 

The new 500e is listed at 143 inches long, while Peugeot 208 is 160 inches long (4.055 meters).  I don’t know why, but the difference in size is very significant to me.  I would consider buying a car the size of the 208 but would not give the 500e a serious look as long as I have to share road with full-size pickups and SUVs.

[DeluxeStang]

5 hours ago, AM222 said:

Is this the Crossover Coupe partnered with the Explorer EV? It better have a lower starting price than the Explorer EV's estimated "under €45,000" (US$50,000). 
 

It'll basically use the same platform as the explorer ev more or less. In terms of pricing, it'll probably be similar to the explorer ev, or more expensive because it'll be a more aspirational lifestyle/sporty product. I wouldn't count on it being cheaper. 

 

I feel as though Ford has made a bit of a mistake with their EV strategy. The idea of radical, areo driven styling to enable smaller, cheaper batteries wasn't bad, but they're trying it out in the wrong segment imo. They should have come out of the gate with a radically styled affordable EV. Some 25-30k EV that can still be profitable as a result of using much smaller batteries. Not to mention having radical styling in the affordable vehicle segment is a selling feature,  not a liability. Something truly unique to seperated it visually from all the uninspired looking econo boxes. You'd have buyers around the block, and would have zero rivals. 

[Rangers09]

On 8/11/2023 at 8:49 AM, Rick73 said:

The electric grid and its source of incremental energy is what concerns me most.  Unfortunately, average Americans do not understand issues, and are being led by people who are not being completely honest, or transparent.  I can remain objective and see both the good and bad of most anything, including electrification, but extremist at both ends do not seem willing to remain objective.

 

Having just dealt with this issue, I have recent first hand experience. Our neighbourhood, which was built in 2005 - 2018, when the Provincial Govt was pushing everyone to replace electric heat and water with gas furnaces and gas water tanks, has only 100 or 125 Amp service in each home. By code, we are restricted to using only 80% of the main breakers, which for us is a meagre 80 amps.

 

Although we didn't install a fast charger, we have added air conditioning and a hot tub, so would be pushing the limit on the main breakers. I contacted a local electrical contractor to double our service to 200 amps. He mentioned our timing was perfect, as a number of his potential customers, requesting service upgrades, are denied by the power company, as the local neighbourhood grids didn't have the capacity. With the number of chargers and air cons being installed locally, he figures our local neighbourhood grid will be at capacity in a few years.

 

The power company has the generating and transmission capacity, but has numerous restrictions at the neighbourhood level. Our local distribution network was built for 100 - 125 amp service to each home, so will not have the capacity for everyone to increase their service. Based on costs, the difference of increasing to 150 or 200 amps was negligible, so I expect most home owners will opt to increase to 200 amps,

 

Since our Govt is pushing everyone to electric heating and EV's, I can see an increasing need for homeowners to increase their service, which at some point has the potential to reach the capacity of the local distribution networks.

[jpd80]

8 hours ago, AM222 said:

Is this the Crossover Coupe partnered with the Explorer EV? It better have a lower starting price than the Explorer EV's estimated "under €45,000" (US$50,000). 
 

Yes, both are on VW MEB and to be built at Cologne. 
Ford still clings to this idea of selling BEVs at premium prices, additional products versus replacements for ICEs.

You know that this is all going to end badly, I’ll be surprised if Explorer EV gets anything more than modest sales.

[AM222]

15 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I feel as though Ford has made a bit of a mistake with their EV strategy. The idea of radical, areo driven styling to enable smaller, cheaper batteries wasn't bad, but they're trying it out in the wrong segment imo. They should have come out of the gate with a radically styled affordable EV. Some 25-30k EV that can still be profitable as a result of using much smaller batteries. Not to mention having radical styling in the affordable vehicle segment is a selling feature,  not a liability. Something truly unique to seperated it visually from all the uninspired looking econo boxes.

I think that's what MG did with its MG 4 EV.
It looks far more interesting than the Nissan Leaf and in its standard form it's RWD. 

[AM222]

13 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Yes, both are on VW MEB and to be built at Cologne. 
Ford still clings to this idea of selling BEVs at premium prices, additional products versus replacements for ICEs.

You know that this is all going to end badly, I’ll be surprised if Explorer EV gets anything more than modest sales.

One thing for sure, it looks better than the ID.4.

These MEB-based Fords are supposed to be a stopgap solution right? Until Ford launches its new (modular?) EV platform?
Any news on this new Ford EV platform? 

[jpd80]

21 minutes ago, AM222 said:

One thing for sure, it looks better than the ID.4.

These MEB-based Fords are supposed to be a stopgap solution right? Until Ford launches its new (modular?) EV platform?
Any news on this new Ford EV platform? 

Not beyond what’s already known, mid sized GE2 going into Oakville and a smaller CE1 developed for compacts - Bronco Sport EV Planned for Louisville beyond 2027. Now that Ford has dropped VW EVs for North America, that may be the driver for multiple vehicles on Ford’s own designs. I’m not convinced that Ford is still 100% committed to BEVs and  now that it’s slowing rollout, those battery plants may be used to supply a lot more hybrids and PHEVs while Ford considers its battery electric plans.

Edited August 14, 2023 by jpd80

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, AM222 said:

I think that's what MG did with its MG 4 EV.
It looks far more interesting than the Nissan Leaf and in its standard form it's RWD. 

Specs on MG4 indicate it’s a nice size vehicle, and should make great daily driver near home, but base-battery (~50 kWh) highway range is not that great at 218 miles, and that’s WLTP.  EPA range likely much lower.  Energy consumption suggest that it’s not nearly as aerodynamic as many competing vehicles from other brands.  Estimated highway range in cold weather is so low that I expect most Americans who live in northern states would find it limiting for winter road trips.

 

It’s going to be difficult to design any electric car that is large enough to appeal to most buyers that also has adequate “real-world” highway range if limited to small battery of about 50 kWh or smaller in order to keep cost down.  Unless vehicle has exceptionally low frontal area and or coefficient of drag, adequate highway range will require higher-capacity battery, and for now that means larger and heavier.  I don’t see how engineers will overcome the physics of it all with present battery technology.

 

Like you I like the MG4’s single motor RWD, and also modest 125 kW of power.  Similar to ICE, affordability and efficiency do not mix well with ultra high performance for BEVs.  MG4 is not lightning fast, but how much do we really need  for normal driving.

 

 

https://ev-database.org/car/1707/MG-MG4-Electric-51-kWh