Ford Reduces Requirements for Dealer EV Certification

[jpd80]

On 11/29/2023 at 8:34 AM, Deanh said:

well, if I recall, the " e model" came about around the Round Table when people were crawling all over one another to buy ANYTHING electric...a nod should be given to the Media outlests for prortraying anything BEV as the next coming. BEV was promoted as being a HUGE part of Fords future if not its entirety....I know our principle was shit scared of missing "that" wave...and understandably so given the craziness that was BEV in its infancy.  As , I think is somewhat obvious, I didnt buy into the frenzy and veiwed that as somewhat of a mistake...but I cannot in any way blame the Dealers that committed given all the hype/ propoganda.....Ford did EXACTLY the same with Lincoln if you recall, promised outrageously good and exciting ( read PROFITABLE self selling market leading) product IF Millions of diollars were invested in the Dealerships presentation and facilitiy upgrades. If you didnt, you werent going to get the product that was going lead to Lincolns resurgence ...kind of shitty to the dealers that had substandard product for so long and were surviving on their Used Cars to survive.   

Farley quickly broke Ford into three groups to impress others like Wall Street investment advisers and the Ford board but the truth is that it’s all show, piss and wind with nothing really behind it except a thin wall between the real Ford and a pretend world where all the accountants and bureaucrats don’t exist…

Edited November 30, 2023 by jpd80

[akirby]

8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Farley quickly broke Ford into three groups to impress others like Wall Street investment advisers and the Ford board but the truth is that it’s all show, piss and wind with nothing really behind it except a thin wall between the real Ford and a pretend world where all the accountants and bureaucrats don’t exist…

Is that your opinion or is that based on inside knowledge?  I thought the EV business was a completely separate Division with separate leadership, processes and accountability.

[rperez817]

8 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Farley quickly broke Ford into three groups to impress others like Wall Street investment advisers and the Ford board but the truth is that it’s all show, piss and wind with nothing really behind it except a thin wall between the real Ford and a pretend world where all the accountants and bureaucrats don’t exist…

 

12 minutes ago, akirby said:

Is that your opinion or is that based on inside knowledge?  I thought the EV business was a completely separate Division with separate leadership, processes and accountability.

 

The Ford+ plan breaking Ford into Blue, Model e, and Pro business units within a common corporate umbrella is not to "impress others like Wall Street investment advisors and the Ford board" but a fundamental transformation of Ford Motor Company overall in order to be better prepared for survival and hopefully thriving amid the ongoing automotive industry revolution. Ford was the first major legacy automaker with this arrangement. It's a competitive advantage for Ford that remains unmatched by its legacy automaker competitors.

 

akirby is correct about the BU separation. Each has different leadership, operations, and strategies. Kumar Galhotra leads Blue, Doug Field leads Model e, Ted Cannis leads Pro.

 

John Lawler is giving an update on Ford+ in about an hour. Ford Motor Company - John Lawler to Discuss Plan to Compete and Grow with Ford+ at Barclays Global Automotive and Mobility Tech Conference

[akirby]

55 minutes ago, rperez817 said:

 

 

The Ford+ plan breaking Ford into Blue, Model e, and Pro business units within a common corporate umbrella is not to "impress others like Wall Street investment advisors and the Ford board" but a fundamental transformation of Ford Motor Company overall in order to be better prepared for survival and hopefully thriving amid the ongoing automotive industry revolution. Ford was the first major legacy automaker with this arrangement. It's a competitive advantage for Ford that remains unmatched by its legacy automaker competitors.

 

akirby is correct about the BU separation. Each has different leadership, operations, and strategies. Kumar Galhotra leads Blue, Doug Field leads Model e, Ted Cannis leads Pro.

 

John Lawler is giving an update on Ford+ in about an hour. Ford Motor Company - John Lawler to Discuss Plan to Compete and Grow with Ford+ at Barclays Global Automotive and Mobility Tech Conference

 

To be fair - and why I asked the question - just because they have different organizations doesn’t necessarily mean they’re operating any differently.

[rperez817]

18 minutes ago, akirby said:

To be fair - and why I asked the question - just because they have different organizations doesn’t necessarily mean they’re operating any differently.

 

Good point akirby. As it relates to dealership-manufacturer relations, Ford to its credit established a new operating paradigm for Model e division. Jim Farley described it as follows during the Ford+ presentation in May 2023.

 

It takes more though than great products to really win customers over, particularly new customers to Ford. It takes a buying and ownership experience that's way, way beyond what we do today. We know that most customers would enjoy the buying process a lot more if they could skip the step of negotiating on price. Starting in January, Model E customers will have flexible purchase options, online, in the store, with transparent pricing that they don't have to haggle over, and remote vehicle delivery, and later pick up as well. These better experiences make customers more likely to build a relationship and choose the same dealer again. There are benefits to the dealer.

Customers also want to get their dream vehicle, not settle for what's on the lot. Soon they'll have far more options available to purchase through their dealer from new retail replenishment centers. These centers can hold a couple of weeks of inventory and deliver the right vehicle in less than 10 days. With how we've brought the complexity of our lineup down, we can cut the system inventory in half to 50 days.

Our dealers are freed as well from negotiating with customers to sell what they have on the lot, and that's happier customers, but it's also fewer discounts. We want each of our Model E dealers to be a trusted partner for new EV customers who want to see and learn about these new great products.

 

Farley suggested that Model e division's new initiatives and operations for dealer relations as well as with new technology development will eventually make its way to Blue and Pro, particularly software and subscription-based services.

 

We've talked about how electrification changes the product and changes the business, but electrification isn't the biggest transformation going on in the auto industry, and it's not the limit of what we're trying to do in Model E as well. Model E is intended to bring tech and software to the center of all ICE, hybrid, and electric vehicles across Ford Blue, Model E, and Pro. With software, these aren't just vehicles, they're products, but a very special kind of product.

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, rperez817 said:

 

 

The Ford+ plan breaking Ford into Blue, Model e, and Pro business units within a common corporate umbrella is not to "impress others like Wall Street investment advisors and the Ford board" but a fundamental transformation of Ford Motor Company overall in order to be better prepared for survival and hopefully thriving amid the ongoing automotive industry revolution. Ford was the first major legacy automaker with this arrangement. It's a competitive advantage for Ford that remains unmatched by its legacy automaker competitors.

Im sorry, you’re just spouting Ford propaganda. How much of a transition is possible if you’re prepared to keep all the things that continue to hold back the company? There is a much bigger issue within Ford but Farley and the board refuse to address it.

 

 

Quote

 

akirby is correct about the BU separation. Each has different leadership, operations, and strategies. Kumar Galhotra leads Blue, Doug Field leads Model e, Ted Cannis leads Pro.

 

John Lawler is giving an update on Ford+ in about an hour. Ford Motor Company - John Lawler to Discuss Plan to Compete and Grow with Ford+ at Barclays Global Automotive and Mobility Tech Conference

All Farley did is split the company to present it in a certain light, Farley was betting on a meteoric rise for Model E production and profits but the current economic climate makes that highly doubtful.

 

Model E will lose money for at least a decade while its bill must be paid for by Ford Blue and Ford Pro, how on earth does that give a clear picture of sustainability?  It doesn’t, it actually does the opposite and spotlights quarter after quarter how it’s nowhere near paying its own way, especially now that BEV sales haven’t ramped up as expected…

 

To be fair, nobody at Ford anticipated the current economic situation - that is the real issue here, an external pressure that Ford has no control over has put its plans on hold at least for a couple of years.

 

I have seen Ford go through enough changes to know that this is the plan until the day it isn’t. 

Edited November 30, 2023 by jpd80

[GearheadGrrrl]

Heck, they ain't even spun it off like Iveco, CNH, Ferrari, etc., and even then pretty much the same people and funds still own them all.

[rperez817]

21 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

Im sorry, you’re just spouting Ford propaganda. How much of a transition is possible if you’re prepared to keep all the things that continue to hold back the company? There is a much bigger issue within Ford but Farley and the board refuse to address it.

 

I agree with you jpd80 that Ford still has issues with "all the things that continue to hold back the company". But the Ford+ plan is a step in the right direction, and it's noteworthy that Ford was the first legacy automaker to establish separate BUs.

 

The biggest issue of all not just for Ford, but for most legacy automakers, is that the pace of their transition efforts is much slower that they should be. Elon Musk spoke about this a few months ago.

[akirby]

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Im sorry, you’re just spouting Ford propaganda. How much of a transition is possible if you’re prepared to keep all the things that continue to hold back the company? There is a much bigger issue within Ford but Farley and the board refuse to address it.

 

 

All Farley did is split the company to present it in a certain light, Farley was betting on a meteoric rise for Model E production and profits but the current economic climate makes that highly doubtful.

 

Model E will lose money for at least a decade while its bill must be paid for by Ford Blue and Ford Pro, how on earth does that give a clear picture of sustainability?  It doesn’t, it actually does the opposite and spotlights quarter after quarter how it’s nowhere near paying its own way, especially now that BEV sales haven’t ramped up as expected…

 

To the contrary, it allows Ford to show how well the ICE and PRO divisions are performing.  Otherwise the overall results would be much lower and folks would be left to wonder whether they were underperforming or if it was model-E.

 

More importantly it allows them to manage each business separately and do things differently (whether they do or not is a different issue).

[jpd80]

4 hours ago, akirby said:

To the contrary, it allows Ford to show how well the ICE and PRO divisions are performing.  Otherwise the overall results would be much lower and folks would be left to wonder whether they were underperforming or if it was model-E.

When Ford is spending up to $50 billion on Model E assets and product development, it’s easy to see

how that division will be underwater for decades unless  Blue and Pro keep paying for everything.

 

4 hours ago, akirby said:

 

More importantly it allows them to manage each business separately and do things differently (whether they do or not is a different issue).

It also allows them to quantify losses and wind up more easily if ever required

and before recent times, I think that was/still will be the plan for Ford Blue.

 

What doesn’t help Model E’s image is ‘armchair experts’  concluding that 

the division loses x amount per vehicle. Completely unfair perception.

[akirby]

9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

What doesn’t help Model E’s image is ‘armchair experts’  concluding that 

the division loses x amount per vehicle. Completely unfair perception.

Yep.  It’s stupid and infuriating when people do that (as if you couldn’t tell).

 

it also allows Model E to have completely different business goals and compensation objectives than Blue which is important to drive the right behavior.

[rperez817]

17 hours ago, GearheadGrrrl said:

Heck, they ain't even spun it off 

 

Ford's official line regarding spinning off any of the 3 BUs as part of Ford+ is as follows.

We are focused on our Ford+ plan to transform the company and thrive in this new era of electric and connected vehicles. We have no plans to spin off our battery electric vehicle business or our traditional [internal combustion engine] business.

 

However, LA Times indicated that Jim Farley didn't completely rule it out, especially since investors and industry analysts have pushed Ford and other legacy automakers to pursue spinoffs. Note Farley's mention of a "whatever-it-takes mind-set".

Jim Farley didn’t reject the possibility of spinning off either operation when queried on the subject during the company’s earnings call.

“Running a successful ICE business and a successful BEV business are not the same,” Farley said. “I’m really excited about the company’s commitment to operate the businesses as they should be.” The EV business is “fundamentally different” in the customers it attracts, the way its products are built and the engineering and design talent that must be hired.

“We’re not seeking half measures,” Farley said on the call. “We’re done with incremental change. We have a clear plan, a bias for action and a whatever-it-takes mind-set.”

 

Guess we'll have to wait and see. Maybe the recent degradation of Model e division's dealer certification program as discussed in this thread will become a catalyst for spinoffs.

[Rick73]

9 hours ago, jpd80 said:

What doesn’t help Model E’s image is ‘armchair experts’  concluding that 

the division loses x amount per vehicle. Completely unfair perception.

That assumes there’s an “image” to worry about in the first place, when most buyers who walk into a Ford dealership probably don’t know about Blue versus E, and even if they did, wouldn’t care how Ford is structured.  Financials are no doubt important to investors, but are professionals influenced by amateurs expressing naive points of view?  Seems doubtful.  And if a prospective BEV buyer thought his purchase was being partly funded by others, they would see that as a positive, not a negative, as if they are getting more than they are paying for, so doesn’t help explain slow sales.  Image can indeed be very important, but in this case it’s likely more about the product and its perceived value relative to other choices.  It may be an unfair perception related to Model E, but who is being affected that makes a difference?  Seems a non-issue. 

[jpd80]

3 hours ago, Rick73 said:

That assumes there’s an “image” to worry about in the first place, when most buyers who walk into a Ford dealership probably don’t know about Blue versus E, and even if they did, wouldn’t care how Ford is structured.  Financials are no doubt important to investors, but are professionals influenced by amateurs expressing naive points of view?  Seems doubtful.  And if a prospective BEV buyer thought his purchase was being partly funded by others, they would see that as a positive, not a negative, as if they are getting more than they are paying for, so doesn’t help explain slow sales.  Image can indeed be very important, but in this case it’s likely more about the product and its perceived value relative to other choices.  It may be an unfair perception related to Model E, but who is being affected that makes a difference?  Seems a non-issue. 

Take a step back and understand that your knowledge of the auto industry and where you obtain your research and facts is completely different to the average person who may be in the market for a new vehicle. Today, most people seem to get their “news” and “facts for Face book, Twitter/X or Fox News, those sources may or may not be accurate but the one thing you can count on is that they say outrageous thinks to increase site traffic. So lumping in Ford’s Model E losses with VW’s failing electric strategy or something else Toyota did adds to misperception and distorted views - bad news sells or at least attracts more site views... So, long before anyone shows up at a dealership, their view of brands have in many cases, been heavily influenced or distorted. 

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, akirby said:

Yep.  It’s stupid and infuriating when people do that (as if you couldn’t tell).

 

it also allows Model E to have completely different business goals and compensation objectives than Blue which is important to drive the right behavior.

Model E is the darling of the Ford world that can do no wrong, it gets a constant supply of unquestioned cash to go do wonderful things. It exists because Bill Ford supports the future direction of the company, that type of nurturing is only possible if design and development is allowed to exist outside of the rules of accountants who run Ford and insist that products show a return on investment….

 

The only way that Model E could get in serious trouble is if buyers reject Ford’s new electric vehicle offerings

[jpd80]

Buyer response to Cybertruck launch will be interesting, Tesla has hyped this thing to the point of millions of reservations, now comes the fun part of taking actual orders. How long will it take these people to realise that this was all about selling $100,000 versions to elite buyers long before anyone else sees an affordable version… People way down the list should just go lease a Lightning and watch for a few years…

[Gurgeh]

Well, got the bad news today. I've been a loyal and enthusiastic customer of East-West Lincoln, the only stand-alone Lincoln dealership in the Washington DC metro area. They have transferred my 2024 Nautilus order (which has been built, but is still awaiting shipment) to Koons Ford Lincoln of Silver Spring. They are shutting down their operations after many decades of being in business as an independent dealer of Lincolns (and before it was shut down, Mercuries too). The reason? They couldn't afford the (they estimated) $5 million cost of meeting FMC's new requirements for EV sales. Really sad to see. 

[tbone]

11 minutes ago, Gurgeh said:

Well, got the bad news today. I've been a loyal and enthusiastic customer of East-West Lincoln, the only stand-alone Lincoln dealership in the Washington DC metro area. They have transferred my 2024 Nautilus order (which has been built, but is still awaiting shipment) to Koons Ford Lincoln of Silver Spring. They are shutting down their operations after many decades of being in business as an independent dealer of Lincolns (and before it was shut down, Mercuries too). The reason? They couldn't afford the (they estimated) $5 million cost of meeting FMC's new requirements for EV sales. Really sad to see. 

That is really disappointing to hear.  I would put the blame solely on Ford for incidents like this.  From not sufficiently providing enough or new product to sell, to these EV mandates that cost a substantial amount of money.  It makes me think it’s intentional to cull the number of dealers.  

[ice-capades]

1 hour ago, Gurgeh said:

Well, got the bad news today. I've been a loyal and enthusiastic customer of East-West Lincoln, the only stand-alone Lincoln dealership in the Washington DC metro area. They have transferred my 2024 Nautilus order (which has been built, but is still awaiting shipment) to Koons Ford Lincoln of Silver Spring. They are shutting down their operations after many decades of being in business as an independent dealer of Lincolns (and before it was shut down, Mercuries too). The reason? They couldn't afford the (they estimated) $5 million cost of meeting FMC's new requirements for EV sales. Really sad to see. 

 

Sorry to hear about East-West Lincoln closing after so many years. On the plus side, Koons is a large dealership group with good customer service and a good reputation from my experience with them a number of years ago.  

Edited December 1, 2023 by ice-capades