Oac98 Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 23 hours ago, DeluxeStang said: To be fair, the mach-e is one of the best selling non Tesla EVs, Ford has sold hundreds of thousands of them over the years. So while it's not a runaway smashing success, I wouldn't call it a failure either. As you stated, the key is to get costs down in a sustainable matter, and improve on what customers already like. Making more desirable products at a lower price, that's a tall order. But it can be done with you have an great series of platforms. Ford's upcoming dedicated EV platforms are apparently next level. If Ford's next gen EVs on those platforms can come in at a noticably lower price, while being even more aspirational, they're gonna sell incredibly well, especially as EVs gradually become more acceptable to mainstream audiences. Maybe failure was a bit of a strong word in regards to the Mach E. I can’t wait too see these Gen 2 platforms and products. I hope they are next level. I expect this new pick up truck and the two OAC Bevs to be unveiled sometime later this year. It’s long overdue to see these 3 new products, they’ve been in development for at least 5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 17 hours ago, Deanh said: itll be some timebefore all the issues get adressed, Id say minimum 5 years...and price , whilst important..is the least of the issues... The Mach E was the best Ford could do with what it had the time...it was a gen 1 1/2 product and the first in house EV they did. They did a solid job with it, but it needs improvements with the way the market has gone. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) 4 hours ago, silvrsvt said: The Mach E was the best Ford could do with what it had the time...it was a gen 1 1/2 product and the first in house EV they did. They did a solid job with it, but it needs improvements with the way the market has gone. article today aboput Ford adressing affordability and researching cheaper EV variants...but Ill state again...price isnt the biggest issue...if it was then our sales on anything ( lets just use 40k as an example of "affordable ) of anything above a certain $ figure would be dismal, for instance F150 sales would be negligable....now that said, imagine a 30-35k plug in Maverick with a 350 mile range..... Edited February 7 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 10 minutes ago, Deanh said: article today aboput Ford adressing affordability and researching cheaper EV variants...but Ill state again...price isnt the biggest issue...if it was then our sales on anything ( lets just use 40k as an example of "affordable ) of anything above a certain $ figure would be dismal, for instance F150 sales would be negligable.... But your also dealing with a new tech that has had a lot of "spin" good/bad/indifferent from different groups. People buying a 70K ICE F-150 know what to expect....not so much with a 70K Lightning. We are still in that crawling phase with EVs, even though information pointed to a quick walk to running phase earlier. Having price parity with an ICE removes part of that uncertainty and makes the necessarily lifestyle adjustments to own an EV more plateable. Like I've been harping about, resistance to EVs will go down if you can plug it in nearly anywhere and be charged up to say 80% from say 10% in 20 minutes or less. Even with a shorter range then an ICE. That is pretty low lying fruit to get to in the next 5 years or so. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 (edited) 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: But your also dealing with a new tech that has had a lot of "spin" good/bad/indifferent from different groups. People buying a 70K ICE F-150 know what to expect....not so much with a 70K Lightning. We are still in that crawling phase with EVs, even though information pointed to a quick walk to running phase earlier. Having price parity with an ICE removes part of that uncertainty and makes the necessarily lifestyle adjustments to own an EV more plateable. Like I've been harping about, resistance to EVs will go down if you can plug it in nearly anywhere and be charged up to say 80% from say 10% in 20 minutes or less. Even with a shorter range then an ICE. That is pretty low lying fruit to get to in the next 5 years or so. part of me also suspects there will be an alternative rear its head as well...Im curious as to why BMW is upping the ante regarding hydrogen...... Edited February 7 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 26 minutes ago, Deanh said: part of me also suspects there will be an alternative rear its head as well...Im curious as to why BMW is upping the ante regarding hydrogen...... Hydrogen will have limited applications, but it is NOT the answer or even a reasonable alternative. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 32 minutes ago, silvrsvt said: Hydrogen will have limited applications, but it is NOT the answer or even a reasonable alternative. Im not sure I would rule it out...expecially given that BMW I wouldnt consider a small player at all, and I doubt they would make such a brazen "mistake"....got me curious for sure...odd..what do they know that seemingly no one else does? ( barring niche products ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 12 hours ago, Deanh said: article today aboput Ford adressing affordability and researching cheaper EV variants...but Ill state again...price isnt the biggest issue...if it was then our sales on anything ( lets just use 40k as an example of "affordable ) of anything above a certain $ figure would be dismal, for instance F150 sales would be negligable....now that said, imagine a 30-35k plug in Maverick with a 350 mile range..... Frankly, as a daily MME driver in a cold weather state, I really feel the range needs to be 500 miles so when it’s cut in half due to freezing temperatures you still have an acceptable range of 250 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 6 hours ago, tbone said: Frankly, as a daily MME driver in a cold weather state, I really feel the range needs to be 500 miles so when it’s cut in half due to freezing temperatures you still have an acceptable range of 250 miles. Question-can you recharge at your house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 On 2/7/2024 at 10:36 AM, silvrsvt said: Hydrogen will have limited applications, but it is NOT the answer or even a reasonable alternative. but waiyt...theres more... GM and Honda announced the start of production at their jointly owned FCSM hydrogen fuel cell manufacturing plant in Michigan....are we missing something?...why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 15 minutes ago, Deanh said: but waiyt...theres more... GM and Honda announced the start of production at their jointly owned FCSM hydrogen fuel cell manufacturing plant in Michigan....are we missing something?...why? Niche product. Quote GM and Honda have started production of hydrogen fuel cells that will power commercial trucks, heavy equipment, generators, and to a lesser extent, passenger vehicles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 14 minutes ago, akirby said: Niche product. seems like wasted revenue if thats the case...Im gonna venture to say theres more to it...niche doesnt pay the bills....going to keep my eyes on this, seems more are jumpring onthe Bandwagon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 7 hours ago, silvrsvt said: Question-can you recharge at your house? No, I cannot. I basically have to treat the car like someone who has no access to a charger. I charge at dealerships or other commercial chargers. The basis of my statement stems from when I had a 100% charge at -2 degrees, which only yielded 109 miles of range, which was not sufficient for me to conduct a round trip, resulting in me using my ICE vehicle to avoid the charging hassle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 38 minutes ago, Deanh said: seems like wasted revenue if thats the case...Im gonna venture to say theres more to it...niche doesnt pay the bills....going to keep my eyes on this, seems more are jumpring onthe Bandwagon... Take off the tinfoil hat. Youre only seeing what you want to see - some alternative to BEVs. This isn’t it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 55 minutes ago, akirby said: Take off the tinfoil hat. Youre only seeing what you want to see - some alternative to BEVs. This isn’t it. ...perhaps you have more " tinfoil " than I do.....youre totally brushing it off , if not ignoring the fact that Manufacturers ARE investing some serious dollars...since you are such the armchair expert, and somehow know more than they do, perhaps you could explain to us peasents exactly why...theres definitely a reason other than wasting money.... reminds me, need to buy a Lawnmower but I dont have a yard... Edited February 8 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 22 minutes ago, Deanh said: ...perhaps you have more " tinfoil " than I do.....youre totally brushing it off , if not ignoring the fact that Manufacturers ARE investing some serious dollars...since you are such the armchair expert, and somehow know more than they do, perhaps you could explain to us peasents exactly why...theres definitely a reason other than wasting money.... reminds me, need to buy a Lawnmower but I dont have a yard... Because saying something and actually doing it are two different things. Going back almost 20 years ago: Ford's Goal Of Boosting SUV Fuel Economy By 2005 Proves Elusive https://www.autoweek.com/news/a2108121/fords-goal-boosting-suv-fuel-economy-2005-proves-elusive/ From what I can see from these two links (one is very pro Hydrogen apparently)...GM is investing about 85 million into Hydrogen projects vs 20-27 Billion into EV production and research.... https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/how-gms-investment-in-fuel-cells-is-paying-off/ https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/gm-spends-on-evs-battery-plants-self-driving-fuel-cells/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, tbone said: ....The basis of my statement stems from when I had a 100% charge at -2 degrees, which only yielded 109 miles of range, which was not sufficient for me to conduct a round trip, resulting in me using my ICE vehicle to avoid the charging hassle. 109 miles! -2 or not, that is totally unacceptable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, silvrsvt said: Because saying something and actually doing it are two different things. Going back almost 20 years ago: Ford's Goal Of Boosting SUV Fuel Economy By 2005 Proves Elusive https://www.autoweek.com/news/a2108121/fords-goal-boosting-suv-fuel-economy-2005-proves-elusive/ From what I can see from these two links (one is very pro Hydrogen apparently)...GM is investing about 85 million into Hydrogen projects vs 20-27 Billion into EV production and research.... https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/how-gms-investment-in-fuel-cells-is-paying-off/ https://www.forbes.com/wheels/news/gm-spends-on-evs-battery-plants-self-driving-fuel-cells/ its not the toatal $$$ invested...its a multitude of Manufacturers investigating...its a perfectly valid question...WHY? ...cue condescending ( tinfoil hat...seriously? f-me )retort to a valid question..if hydrogen is such a waste of time why the investment from SEVERAL manufacturers if its such a waste of time/ resources...ie the buying a lawnmower when I have no grass comment.... I am sincerely curious Edited February 8 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Deanh said: ...perhaps you have more " tinfoil " than I do.....youre totally brushing it off , if not ignoring the fact that Manufacturers ARE investing some serious dollars...since you are such the armchair expert, and somehow know more than they do, perhaps you could explain to us peasents exactly why...theres definitely a reason other than wasting money.... reminds me, need to buy a Lawnmower but I dont have a yard... What part of niche product targeted at heavy truck, equipment and generators was confusing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 16 minutes ago, Deanh said: its notthe toatal $$$ invested...its a multitude of Manufacturers investigating...its a perfectly valid question...WHY? ...cue condescending ( tinfoil hat...seriously? f-me )retort to a valid question..if hydrogen is such a waste of time why the investment from SEVERAL manufacturers if its such a waste of time/ resources...ie the buying a lawnmower when I have no grass comment.... I am sincerely curious Hydrogen has been under investigation for decades. The reasons why it’s not suitable for passenger vehicles has been discussed here multiple times. We’ve also discussed how it can work in precisely the use cases being targeted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 10 minutes ago, akirby said: Hydrogen has been under investigation for decades. The reasons why it’s not suitable for passenger vehicles has been discussed here multiple times. We’ve also discussed how it can work in precisely the use cases being targeted. so again..if its so "useless" why BMW, why Toyota, why GM, Honda ? those ( GM aside ) arent Heavy Truck producers, and they arent co developing generators are they? ......do you know something they dont?....from what Ive read hydrogens big bug bear is the Energy it takes to produce...perhaps all those windfarms and Solar could muti task rather than just supply for BEV charging stations....it may also be a knee jerk reaction to BEV sales losing their gleam... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 15 minutes ago, Deanh said: so again..if its so "useless" why BMW, why Toyota, why GM, Honda ? those ( GM aside ) arent Heavy Truck producers, and they arent co developing generators are they? ......do you know something they dont?....from what Ive read hydrogens big bug bear is the Energy it takes to produce...perhaps all those windfarms and Solar could muti task rather than just supply for BEV charging stations....it may also be a knee jerk reaction to BEV sales losing their gleam... Useless? Did you even read what was posted about the use cases? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 (edited) 25 minutes ago, akirby said: Useless? Did you even read what was posted about the use cases? Im referring to this "not suitable for passenger vehicles "...and yet it IS being pursued...why bleed the cash if its not viable? Edited February 8 by Deanh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbone Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 2 hours ago, mackinaw said: 109 miles! -2 or not, that is totally unacceptable. No kidding!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris532 Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 There was a interview with Jim Farley about a year ago, were he said the Superduty lineup would go to Hydrogen power before you saw a full electric Superduty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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