Ford Discusses New Affordable EV Platform

[Rick73]

41 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

What you’ve missed is that the ICE puma is being cancelled as the plant switches over to dedicated BEV Puma shared with the BEV Tourneo Connect in Romania.

Can you expand on what the above means relative to Ford Media announcement of new ICE Puma?   I don’t know what you mean by Puma being cancelled.

 

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/feu/en/news/2024/02/07/new-ford-puma--cool--calm-and-connected-.html

 

[jpd80]

Only available as a hybrid or BEV, the straight ICE version is gone.

Ford is hedging its bets here as to which one will win out….

 

Puma is best selling car in UK (RHD) but the latest version has been axed for Australia.

So I’m wondering what game Ford  will play with the BEV Puma launch later this year,

I suspect that the hybrid will start becoming harder to get in the UK to encourage folks

into the BEV version…A bit of supposition but Ford Europe are that transparent.

Edited February 10 by jpd80

[2005Explorer]

15 hours ago, akirby said:

Unless it’s a first gen Prius……

True. lol

[Rick73]

13 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Only available as a hybrid or BEV, the straight ICE version is gone.

Ford is hedging its bets here as to which one will win out….

 

Puma is best selling car in UK (RHD) but the latest version has been axed for Australia.

So I’m wondering what game Ford  will play with the BEV Puma launch later this year,

I suspect that the hybrid will start becoming harder to get in the UK to encourage folks

into the BEV version…A bit of supposition but Ford Europe are that transparent.

Puma looks like a great compact car/SUV, just a bit larger than Peugeot 208, e-208, and similar competitors which also share gasoline and electric variants.  New Puma specifications indicate they are all initially mild hybrid with 1.0L EcoBoost engine, 11.5KW Belt Integrated Starter-Generator, and tiny 48V 8Ah Li-ion air cooled battery pack.  You’re correct in that Ford has replaced pure ICE with mild hybrid.

 

Anyway, the point was that for anticipated low-volume BEVs, manufacturers can share a vehicle between ICE/HEV and BEV to reduce investment.  Importing an electric Puma to NA may be a way for Ford to offer a lower-cost compact BEV ahead of Tesla Model 2 (while Ford finalizes a more efficient and sophisticated architecture which could take years) assuming Puma BEV costs are low enough, and also that Ford has enough excess manufacturing capacity.  Puma seems much better suited for America than electric Fiat 500, Mini, and a few others that are too small.

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, Rick73 said:

Puma looks like a great compact car/SUV, just a bit larger than Peugeot 208, e-208, and similar competitors which also share gasoline and electric variants.  New Puma specifications indicate they are all initially mild hybrid with 1.0L EcoBoost engine, 11.5KW Belt Integrated Starter-Generator, and tiny 48V 8Ah Li-ion air cooled battery pack.  You’re correct in that Ford has replaced pure ICE with mild hybrid.

The important part of that is the 48 volt electrical system, that reduces a lot of wiring size in the vehicle

which is a huge cost saving while providing  a more stable operating voltage supply for electronics.

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Rick73 said:

 

Anyway, the point was that for anticipated low-volume BEVs, manufacturers can share a vehicle between ICE/HEV and BEV to reduce investment.  Importing an electric Puma to NA may be a way for Ford to offer a lower-cost compact BEV ahead of Tesla Model 2 (while Ford finalizes a more efficient and sophisticated architecture which could take years) assuming Puma BEV costs are low enough, and also that Ford has enough excess manufacturing capacity.  Puma seems much better suited for America than electric Fiat 500, Mini, and a few others that are too small.

Ford Europe is also showing that evolving designs form existing ICE vehicles is still a viable option

especially with smaller cost sensitive vehicles. Tesla of course going the different route with dedicated 2 will show us super creative ways to build small cars by substituting more body shop operations with larger gigacastings……Ford and other manufacturers could also do that if they wanted. 

[fuzzymoomoo]

On 2/6/2024 at 8:29 PM, Rick73 said:

upcoming Tesla Model 2 

You've referenced that several times. I don’t expect that for at least another 6-8 years with how notorious Tesla is for launch delays.

[Rick73]

4 hours ago, jpd80 said:

The important part of that is the 48 volt electrical system, that reduces a lot of wiring size in the vehicle

which is a huge cost saving while providing  a more stable operating voltage supply for electronics.

To be clear, jpd80, Ford specs suggest to me that mild hybrid Starter-Generator uses 48V for power, but I have no idea if Ford upgraded the low-voltage electrical architecture from 12V to 48V like Tesla recently did with Cybertruck.  I kind of doubt it, but don’t know either way.  Other manufacturers like Stellantis that have used 48V mild hybrid have added a DC-DC converter to reduce voltage from 48V to 12V for ordinary vehicle electrical loads.  Tesla supposedly shared with Ford’s Farley specs for 48V electrical architecture — I assume hoping that 48V will replace 12V faster.

 

My reference to Puma “tiny” battery was based on only 8Ah which makes a 48V battery only about 0.4 kWh capacity.  Obviously that’s not much energy storage, but then neither is 11.5 kW Starter-Generator power.  I guess that’s partly why it’s considered “mild” hybrid, though battery isn’t small relative to 11.5 kW Starter-Generator.  Another advantage I like is that that small 48V battery should be much cheaper to replace than many high-voltage hybrid batteries.

 

 

[jpd80]

6 hours ago, Rick73 said:

To be clear, jpd80, Ford specs suggest to me that mild hybrid Starter-Generator uses 48V for power, but I have no idea if Ford upgraded the low-voltage electrical architecture from 12V to 48V like Tesla recently did with Cybertruck.  I kind of doubt it, but don’t know either way.  Other manufacturers like Stellantis that have used 48V mild hybrid have added a DC-DC converter to reduce voltage from 48V to 12V for ordinary vehicle electrical loads.  Tesla supposedly shared with Ford’s Farley specs for 48V electrical architecture — I assume hoping that 48V will replace 12V faster.

 

My reference to Puma “tiny” battery was based on only 8Ah which makes a 48V battery only about 0.4 kWh capacity.  Obviously that’s not much energy storage, but then neither is 11.5 kW Starter-Generator power.  I guess that’s partly why it’s considered “mild” hybrid, though battery isn’t small relative to 11.5 kW Starter-Generator.  Another advantage I like is that that small 48V battery should be much cheaper to replace than many high-voltage hybrid batteries.

 

I did some checking up on this and you suspected, the Puma has the 48 volt battery for the

mild hybrid work only while the 12 volt battery still runs everything else, even when stopped

in traffic or at lights. This is raising concerns on some Puma chat boards as the 12 volt battery

can run flat in about 6 months of heavy city use, needs some open running to fully charge the

battery up. From that,  it looks like  the charging system prioritises the 48 volt hybrid side.

Edited February 11 by jpd80

[Rick73]

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

I did some checking up on this and you suspected, the Puma has the 48 volt battery for the

mild hybrid work only while the 12 volt battery still runs everything else, even when stopped

in traffic or at lights. This is raising concerns on some Puma chat boards as the 12 volt battery

can run flat in about 6 months of heavy city use, needs some open running to fully charge the

battery up. From that,  it looks like  the charging system prioritises the 48 volt hybrid side.

I don’t understand their concern because 12V Puma battery should be kept charged continuously by step-down 48-to-12 Volt converter much like if vehicle had a 12V (nominal) alternator.  Maybe they are discussing something weird that’s not obvious (at least to me), or they could be worried about an issue that’s been addressed.

 

Anyway, getting back to new future vehicle architecture, it seems Musk did share with Farley specs on 48V Cybertruck electrical hoping to convert industry from 12 to 48 Volts.  Video with Musk and Sandy Munro is interesting because it points out how difficult and involved it was to switch to 48V, but also what is gained.  Whether one likes Musk or not for personal reasons, I give him credit for willing to take risks in order to achieve what his uncompromising personality wants.  It will be interesting to see if other manufacturers adopt 48V electrical on next generation vehicles, or if they stick with 12V.

 

https://insideevs.com/news/699798/tesla-shares-cybertruck-48v-architecture/

[akirby]

48V electrical systems have been around for over a decade, long before Tesla used it.

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

48V electrical systems have been around for over a decade, long before Tesla used it.

I don’t believe we are talking about the same thing.  I could be wrong though, just not aware of any manufacturer using 48V except for power which is very different application.  Various European manufacturers started using 48V years ago but kept 12V at same time.  Again, I could be wrong but not aware of any production vehicle prior to Cybertruck replacing  all.12V with 48V.

[DeluxeStang]

19 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Europe is also showing that evolving designs form existing ICE vehicles is still a viable option

especially with smaller cost sensitive vehicles. 

I'm curious to see if these affordable Ford EVs on CE1 follow that strategy. Ford could just take the bronco sport and maverick bodies and throw an electric platform under them rather than redesigning them from scratch. That being said, while it would be more expensive, if we were to get an all electric maverick or something, I would prefer for it to have its own unique design, perhaps shortening the hood by quite a bit to make the truck even smaller with a bigger bed. 

[Captainp4]

2 hours ago, Rick73 said:

I don’t believe we are talking about the same thing.  I could be wrong though, just not aware of any manufacturer using 48V except for power which is very different application.  Various European manufacturers started using 48V years ago but kept 12V at same time.  Again, I could be wrong but not aware of any production vehicle prior to Cybertruck replacing  all.12V with 48V.

Tesla is a bad word around here, even if you quote Farley saying they're going to follow Tesla's lead because they're more efficient in every aspect, from design to manufacturing to the end product.

I've seen some people claiming Mercedes did it first, but pretty sure most people are confusing mild hybrids that still step down to 12v for all the inside functions.

[DeluxeStang]

41 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

Tesla is a bad word around here

More like most of us respect some of what Tesla has done, but don't view them as this fantastic, flawless car company that's gonna put everyone else out of business in a few years. Tesla has really good software, and battery tech, as well as a stellar public charging system. They're pretty terrible just about everywhere else to be honest. 

[Captainp4]

13 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

More like most of us respect some of what Tesla has done, but don't view them as this fantastic, flawless car company that's gonna put everyone else out of business in a few years. Tesla has really good software, and battery tech, as well as a stellar public charging system. They're pretty terrible just about everywhere else to be honest. 

And hopefully can respect where Tesla is miles ahead and realize Ford is trying to catch up in certain areas without disregarding or trying to discredit every comment that mentions Tesla. It's clear some can't. There's a reason they're #1 in EV and making money doing it, and Farley says as much pretty often.

[jpd80]

5 hours ago, Rick73 said:

I don’t understand their concern because 12V Puma battery should be kept charged continuously by step-down 48-to-12 Volt converter much like if vehicle had a 12V (nominal) alternator.  Maybe they are discussing something weird that’s not obvious (at least to me), or they could be worried about an issue that’s been addressed.

Just briefly, it was from a forum where people who owned Ford 48 volt hybrid were having issues with the 12 volt battery going flat.

What people forget is that regular ICE 12 volt batteries can go flat if they are used only for short trips where the alternator doesn’t get a chance to charge up the battery. this happened to me because I live less than ten minutes from work and don’t get much past 30 mph.

[akirby]

43 minutes ago, Captainp4 said:

And hopefully can respect where Tesla is miles ahead and realize Ford is trying to catch up in certain areas without disregarding or trying to discredit every comment that mentions Tesla. It's clear some can't. There's a reason they're #1 in EV and making money doing it, and Farley says as much pretty often.

Oh please.  There is nothing magic or revolutionary about a 48V electrical system.  It just requires 48v accessories which were previously unavailable or expensive or the use of converters which can also be expensive.  It’s easier for Tesla to commit to 48V power because of their vertically integrated manufacturing and smaller volume.  As more mfrs go to 48V there will be more 48V 3rd party accessories which brings cost way down.  
 

Some of you just blindly accept things without looking at the details.

[Captainp4]

12 minutes ago, akirby said:

Oh please.  There is nothing magic or revolutionary about a 48V electrical system.  It just requires 48v accessories which were previously unavailable or expensive or the use of converters which can also be expensive.  It’s easier for Tesla to commit to 48V power because of their vertically integrated manufacturing and smaller volume.  As more mfrs go to 48V there will be more 48V 3rd party accessories which brings cost way down.  
 

Some of you just blindly accept things without looking at the details.

Okay, I'll be over here watching Farley follow in Tesla's footsteps while some of you praise him but say Tesla didn't do anything new at the same time.

[jpd80]

While it costs a lot of money to switch over completely to 48 volt system, there are big savings to be had from reducing wire size, the problem is replacing a well developed and mature industry wide 12 volt equipment supply chain make it so hard unless lots of manufacturers embrace it and make it the new standard. They (insert legacy brand) all want to but no one wants to be first.

Edited February 11 by jpd80

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, Captainp4 said:

And hopefully can respect where Tesla is miles ahead and realize Ford is trying to catch up in certain areas without disregarding or trying to discredit every comment that mentions Tesla. It's clear some can't. There's a reason they're #1 in EV and making money doing it, and Farley says as much pretty often.

5 years ago, Tesla was 10 years ahead of everyone else. Ford is behind, but catching up a lot faster than Tesla fans are willing to admit. I'm willing to bet t3 matches or exceeds CT in every category, better towing, better payload, better range, better styling, better reliability. 

 

Tesla has some benefits, but let's be real, they're also a brand that doesn't respond well to criticism. I mean, how long have people been telling Tesla to get their shit together when it comes build quality and product launches, and they never listened. 

 

Now Ford and Toyota, companies who actually know how to build a proper car, are gunning for Tesla. Will Tesla be able to hold them off for a few more years? Yeah. Will Tesla still be the standard in the electric car industry 20 years from now? Probably not. 

[akirby]

2 hours ago, Captainp4 said:

Okay, I'll be over here watching Farley follow in Tesla's footsteps while some of you praise him but say Tesla didn't do anything new at the same time.

Did I say it wasn’t a good idea?  Ford has the opportunity to do it with their EVs because they’re starting from scratch and with Tesla committing to it there will be more third party support.  Credit Tesla for pushing adoption but this is technology that’s been known for decades - it was just never cost effective to implement.

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, jpd80 said:

While it costs a lot of money to switch over completely to 48 volt system, there are big savings to be had from reducing wire size, the problem is replacing a well developed and mature industry wide 12 volt equipment supply chain make it so hard unless lots of manufacturers embrace it and make it the new standard. They (insert legacy brand) all want to but no one wants to be first.

Precisely.  Long-term 48V conversion appears inevitable, but like you say, no manufacturer wanted to be first because of short-term costs.  I got a laugh from Sandy Munro’s comment in video I linked above of interview with Musk.  Munro joked that if you want to stop technology, just get MBAs and lawyers involved.  Musk takes financial risks that a company like Ford or GM probably wouldn’t.  One day one of those risks may cost Tesla dearly, but in mean time expedites technology.  You’re right that 48V is a huge and expensive undertaking, from motors for seats, windows, windshield washers, etc. to all kinds of sensors to electronics throughout vehicle.  One report stated that Cybertruck was delayed considerably in part due to 48V conversion during COVID when design and sourcing “unusual” low-volume components became even harder.

[Rick73]

5 hours ago, Captainp4 said:

Tesla is a bad word around here, even if you quote Farley saying they're going to follow Tesla's lead because they're more efficient in every aspect, from design to manufacturing to the end product.

It doesn’t seem that people here are as much anti-Tesla per se as much as against what Tesla represents.

[akirby]

42 minutes ago, Rick73 said:

It doesn’t seem that people here are as much anti-Tesla per se as much as against what Tesla represents.

I just don’t like to see people giving Musk and Tesla more credit than they actually deserve.

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, akirby said:

I just don’t like to see people giving Musk and Tesla more credit than they actually deserve.

Musk is an asshole who often gets credit for the work others in his organization are putting in, he's very similar to Steve Jobs in that regard. He has some good ideas, but I hate how people worship him as this perfect figure who's mastered the auto industry.