Edge replacement

[AM222]

11 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

I'm just worried about quality. More affordable labor doesn't always equate to a less reliable/ lower quality product, but it does seem to increase the likelihood of issues occuring. Do we have any data on how reliable these Chinese assembled Ford's are? I fear if they aren't well built, importing a bunch of them could setback Ford's efforts to improve their quality/reputation. 

It's a misconception that all Chinese-built cars have poor build quality. In general, Ford's Asian-built vehicles usually have much less issues and recalls than North American-built models. It's a cultural thing too in Asia I think, cheaper labor doesn't always mean poor performance from workers and Shawn Fain isn't present. Lol

In the Philippines, the 1st gen Chinese Territory was sold from 2020 to 2023. The only recall was batch that needed their Electric Battery Sensor (EBS) bracket replaced. The refreshed EcoSport sold from 2018 to early-2022 was also sourced from China, no known issues/ recalls. Ford has also been exporting Chinese Fords to the Middle East for years. When the North American Taurus when it was discontinued several years ago, Ford Middle East shifted to the Chinese Taurus.

 

Edited July 17, 2024 by AM222

[AM222]

15 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Thanks for the explanation, China has plenty of vehicles that could be modified to suit many global markets, I hope Ford keeps looking at China as a low cost export Center.

Yes. They should do that; the only problem is Ford doesn't have much to export. Apparently, the current C-segment Territory aka Equator Sport is now Ford's lowest-priced vehicle in China. Hopefully they build the rumored new-gen EcoSport in China so it can also export it to Southeast Asia, South Africa, South America, and Mexico. These are markets that need an entry-level Ford.

PS: By the way, the refreshed Equator and Equator Sport are not yet on sale.

Edited July 17, 2024 by AM222

[morgan20]

On 7/14/2024 at 9:13 AM, akirby said:

It’s not the vehicles, it’s the market and the majority of buyers in that market. 

 

It's both. Ford's "commodity" products like its discontinued sedans, Edge, Escape, etc. are not competitive in their markets

[morgan20]

On 7/15/2024 at 7:45 AM, SoonerLS said:

I don't recall seeing very many Taurus/PI cop cars at all over their run--I'm pretty sure I'm seeing more 20 year old CVPIs still in service.

 

CVPI is much more durable than the unibody garbage like Taurus/Explorer PI, Charger Pursuit, Durango Pursuit, Impala etc.

[Sherminator98]

1 hour ago, morgan20 said:

 

CVPI is much more durable than the unibody garbage like Taurus/Explorer PI, Charger Pursuit, Durango Pursuit, Impala etc.

 

That means jack shit since you haven't been able to buy one in nearly 15 years. They've been long retired from Police usage. 

[DeluxeStang]

2 hours ago, morgan20 said:

 

CVPI is much more durable than the unibody garbage like Taurus/Explorer PI, Charger Pursuit, Durango Pursuit, Impala etc.

Gonna have to agree to disagree. I've owned 90s era Ford's built to similar quality standards to the crown vics. I've also owned newer Ford's. Our 2017 explorer is the most reliable car we've ever owned, the 3.5 duratec and 6 speed auto are both practically indestructible. 

 

Crown vics were/are very well known for having weak transmissions. The 4.6 is rock solid, people still say don't touch them with a 10 ft pole because of how unreliable all the other stuff on crown vics can be, all of which is made worse by the fact that most were put through horrific abuse as cop cars/taxis. 

[DeluxeStang]

41 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

That means jack shit since you haven't been able to buy one in nearly 15 years. They've been long retired from Police usage. 

Crown vics aren't even that good. They aren't fast, they don't handle well, they aren't good looking, they don't ride well. Yeah, they can be reliable. But the abuse they're put through is so horrific, they're basically guaranteed to be unreliable for most people buying them at police auctions. Every cop I've asked about it has told me to avoid used cop cars like they're cancer. 

 

I understood the appeal when they were cheap, but these days, they're just another in a long line of overpriced shitboxes. 

[Sherminator98]

8 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

I understood the appeal when they were cheap, but these days, they're just another in a long line of overpriced shitboxes. 

 

Their appeal is based more on legend then actually being a good car. 

[Andrew L]

26 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Gonna have to agree to disagree. I've owned 90s era Ford's built to similar quality standards to the crown vics. I've also owned newer Ford's. Our 2017 explorer is the most reliable car we've ever owned, the 3.5 duratec and 6 speed auto are both practically indestructible. 

 

Crown vics were/are very well known for having weak transmissions. The 4.6 is rock solid, people still say don't touch them with a 10 ft pole because of how unreliable all the other stuff on crown vics can be, all of which is made worse by the fact that most were put through horrific abuse as cop cars/taxis. 

 

Former cop cars maybe but Grand Marquis and Town Cars that have not been in livery can last a very long time.  I remember seeing a Town Car with over 400k miles on it still on original engine and transmission.  

[akirby]

3 hours ago, morgan20 said:

 

It's both. Ford's "commodity" products like its discontinued sedans, Edge, Escape, etc. are not competitive in their markets

Nope.  The 2013 Fusion was very competitive and better than all in the segment except maybe Accord.  Yet it was outsold by Camry and never generated much profit because most buyers wanted cheap SE models priced against cheap Camrys and Altimas.

[SoonerLS]

2 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

They've been long retired from Police usage. 

From new sales, yes, but there are still CVPIs in service as police cars. My hometown still has them in service alongside brand new PIUs. 
 

I figure they’re either new guys or on the sh*t list, but they’re still out on patrol. 

[Andrew L]

5 minutes ago, SoonerLS said:

From new sales, yes, but there are still CVPIs in service as police cars. My hometown still has them in service alongside brand new PIUs. 
 

I figure they’re either new guys or on the sh*t list, but they’re still out on patrol. 

 

Just to add to that this is from December of 2023

LA Sheriff Still Has 429 Ford Crown Victorias in Service Because It Stockpiled Them (thedrive.com)

[ehaase]

On 7/15/2024 at 12:20 PM, Andrew L said:

 

Not sure how true this is but, I remember reading on another forum years ago that apparently Ford was working on a new or significantly updated Panther platform for the 98 Town Car and they really wanted to put the new 5 Speed Automatic in it that went in the LS and a few other models from that era as well.  When they saw the cost to modify the panther to allow for the larger transmission, they canned it and kept the 4 speed.  Now hindsight is 2020 and I think it's safe to say the 4R70W is far more reliable than the 5R55N but it does make me wonder if they spent that money to update the Panther if it would have paid dividends and help the Town Car name live a bit longer and encourage Ford to keep improving on or even develop a new full size RWD platform.  I know Ford printed money with the Panther, but I guess that's something we will never know.

 

Just to add I don't think it would have kept the Town Car alive today but I think it could have changed how Ford handled it's full size lineup.  I do think Ford underestimated though how much brand recognition the Town Car had and how well respected it was.

Looking at how the market has evolved since the mid 80's, I think Ford was wise not to invest in full-size sedans after the early 90's Panther update. I think Chrysler's LX sedans satisfied their niche.  I think GM wasted billions on RWD Cadillac sedans. As far as the Edge goes, I just feel sorry for people like OAC98. 

[Sherminator98]

53 minutes ago, Andrew L said:

 

Just to add to that this is from December of 2023

LA Sheriff Still Has 429 Ford Crown Victorias in Service Because It Stockpiled Them (thedrive.com)

 

Yeah I saw that after I made that post...talk about forward thinking.

 

Wonder how long they'll last till the have to move to something else.

 

[Andrew L]

35 minutes ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Yeah I saw that after I made that post...talk about forward thinking.

 

Wonder how long they'll last till the have to move to something else.

 

 

From what I have seen, for the most part, is that parts are still plentiful out there for the CV so they should be able to get a decent amount of time out of them.  The 4.6 is really a good motor but it's not great on gas.  Got to love people who say they get 25-30 MPG on the highway with theirs.  Maybe on a perfectly flat highway with CC on, otherwise no the 4.6 sucks gas like no tomorrow.  Especially in police duty where most of the time it's just sitting or doing hard acceleration.

[morgan20]

3 hours ago, akirby said:

Nope.  The 2013 Fusion was very competitive and better than all in the segment except maybe Accord.  Yet it was outsold by Camry and never generated much profit because most buyers wanted cheap SE models priced against cheap Camrys and Altimas.

 

2013 Fusion was another "me too" product with the same hierarchy of trim levels as any other vehicle in its market segment. Edge has the same problem in its market segment.

 

The last Ford sedans that were very competitive and better than all in the segment were 1986-1991 Taurus and 1992-1997 Crown Vic. I bought a 1994 Crown Vic a few years after I started my first job at Ford.

Edited July 17, 2024 by morgan20

[morgan20]

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

That means jack shit since you haven't been able to buy one in nearly 15 years. They've been long retired from Police usage. 

 

Wrong, several law enforcement agencies in Indiana still have CVPI in their fleet

[DeluxeStang]

4 hours ago, silvrsvt said:

 

Their appeal is based more on legend then actually being a good car. 

So basically the Toyota of Fords? Perception prevailing over reality?

[Andrew L]

1 hour ago, morgan20 said:

 

2013 Fusion was another "me too" product with the same hierarchy of trim levels as any other vehicle in its market segment. Edge has the same problem in its market segment.

 

The last Ford sedans that were very competitive and better than all in the segment were 1986-1991 Taurus and 1992-1997 Crown Vic. I bought a 1994 Crown Vic a few years after I started my first job at Ford.

 

92-95 Taurus wasn't competitive?  It was the best selling sedan in the US...

Edited July 17, 2024 by Andrew L

[ehaase]

1 hour ago, Andrew L said:

 

92-95 Taurus wasn't competitive?  It was the best selling sedan in the US...

92 Camry was a superior car to the 92 Taurus. 92 Taurus wasn't much of an advancement over the 86 to 91. Taurus was also heavily fleeted by the early 90's. Many former rentals were sold at Ford dealer used car lots.  Many 86 to 91 Taurus buyers were let down with transmission and air conditioning problems and never returned to domestic cars. 

[morgan20]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

So basically the Toyota of Fords?

 

F-Series Super Duty is the Toyota of Fords, built to take a beating for 250,000 mi. and come out OK. Among Fords that aren't trucks or vans, Crown Vic comes closest to that standard

[ehaase]

3 hours ago, Andrew L said:

 

From what I have seen, for the most part, is that parts are still plentiful out there for the CV so they should be able to get a decent amount of time out of them.  The 4.6 is really a good motor but it's not great on gas.  Got to love people who say they get 25-30 MPG on the highway with theirs.  Maybe on a perfectly flat highway with CC on, otherwise no the 4.6 sucks gas like no tomorrow.  Especially in police duty where most of the time it's just sitting or doing hard acceleration.

My Panthers with the 4.6 got around 13 to 16 in town and 23 on the highway. Acceleration at highway speeds was the only thing the 4.6 was better at than the 5.0. 5.0 was more durable, as the 4.6 intake manifolds need to be replaced around 110,000 miles, not a cheap repair. 

[morgan20]

3 minutes ago, ehaase said:

Many 86 to 91 Taurus buyers were let down with transmission and air conditioning problems and never returned to domestic cars. 

 

Yea, 1986-1991 Taurus was a huge advancement in design and took the industry by storm, but reliability was so so. 1992-1997 Crown Vic was not as big a leap in terms of design, but it had very good reliability ratings that in certain years were comparable to the best imports. When I bought my Crown Vic in '94, J.D. Power rated it among the 10 most trouble free cars from any manufacturer.

[Andrew L]

53 minutes ago, ehaase said:

My Panthers with the 4.6 got around 13 to 16 in town and 23 on the highway. Acceleration at highway speeds was the only thing the 4.6 was better at than the 5.0. 5.0 was more durable, as the 4.6 intake manifolds need to be replaced around 110,000 miles, not a cheap repair. 

 

I got the 4.6 in my Aviator though it is the DOHC vs the SOHC version.  I've been averaging 16.5 on my commute which is mostly highway and some city and stretches of bumper to bumper traffic.  I took it on a road trip to SC for 4th of July and got 19.2 with it which honestly isn't bad for a large vehicle with AWD and a thirsty V8.  I posted results to an Aviator group and guys on there couldn't believe it and wanted to know what my secret was.  I told them to not drive like a maniac, keep a constant speed, don't accelerate too hard, and coast to stops instead of slamming on the brakes last second.  That last part ruffled some feathers and I was told slamming on your brakes does nothing to hurt fuel economy and they won't change their driving habit and coasting to a stop does nothing either 🙄

[jpd80]

12 hours ago, AM222 said:

Yes. They should do that; the only problem is Ford doesn't have much to export. Apparently, the current C-segment Territory aka Equator Sport is now Ford's lowest-priced vehicle in China. Hopefully they build the rumored new-gen EcoSport in China so it can also export it to Southeast Asia, South Africa, South America, and Mexico. These are markets that need an entry-level Ford.

PS: By the way, the refreshed Equator and Equator Sport are not yet on sale.

Currently, combined monthly sales of Ranger and Everest in Australia alone are over 8,500

but anything else is only small quantities or just not available and things like

- RHD Mustang production is yet to restart

- ICE Puma production ended

- Escape in tiny amounts

 

Looking at Australia alone, it’s likely that the right products would add significantly to Ford’s monthly sales

but convincing head office to look at old friendly markets is just so hard, they won’t listen.

 

It seems that Ford only wants the high profit low hanging fruit……

 

Edited July 18, 2024 by jpd80