Ford wants ST and RS badges to carry over to performance EVs.

[DeluxeStang]

12 minutes ago, tzach said:

It is a very sad time to be a Ford Fan.  I have driven Fords exclusively since my first car I bought, a 1972 Mustang Mach 1.  The aero design introduction in 1983 really kicked Ford into high gear for about a decade, probably the best time at least during my lifetime.  Now with the death of all the sedans, Edge and soon Escape there is not much left and what is left is super expensive.  Hopefully they have a good plan going forward maybe with hybrids first to transition to EVs later and some less expensive options.

I'm basically the opposite, I believe this is the best time to be a Ford fan, basically ever. At least this last 10 years has been. We've gotten more awesome cars from Ford in the last 10 years than good cars period from Ford between the 70s to the early 2000s. 

 

Like let's break this down, what between the 70s to let's say 2005 was really all that great from ford? The fox body maybe, the whaletail escort, the Gen 1 Tarus and explorer, and the RS 200. 5 cool and impactful cars in 45 years. 

 

By comparison, over the last 10 years we've gotten a ton of incredible mustang variants like the GTD, the best generations of mustang ever, a sporty EV crossover with the mach-e, the return of the bronco, unique affordable crossovers like the Bronco sport, the return of the affordable reliable truck with the maverick, which is just a 90s ranger but much better all around, several sporty Ford hatchbacks, new generations of the raptor including the raptor r with a gt 500 V8, an electric lightning, oh and the best looking modern car with the latest Ford GT.

 

Not to mention by all accounts, we're getting a lot of cool shit in the near future. Ford has said they're gonna double down on the mustang, and we're probably gonna be getting a mustang sedan, raptor, and other trims. By all accounts, these upcoming affordable CE1 EVs are looking pretty promising, at least thus far. Ford is also entering F1 and prototype endurance racing, I find it very likely they'll come out with a new generation of GT to celebrate that. Then there's the fact that Farley has said they want to do a whole range of off-road supercars to expand their off-road appeal, I bet at least one of those ends up being a new RS 200. 

 

I mean shit man, I know Ford has made some mistakes, but can we just stop to appreciate how cool all of these ideas are if they come to fruition? 

[DeluxeStang]

28 minutes ago, tzach said:

It is a very sad time to be a Ford Fan.  I have driven Fords exclusively since my first car I bought, a 1972 Mustang Mach 1.  The aero design introduction in 1983 really kicked Ford into high gear for about a decade, probably the best time at least during my lifetime.  Now with the death of all the sedans, Edge and soon Escape there is not much left and what is left is super expensive.  Hopefully they have a good plan going forward maybe with hybrids first to transition to EVs later and some less expensive options.

Like seriously, has there ever been a time in Ford's entire history when they're making as many cool and interesting products as they are now all at the same time? I honestly don't think so. I know this pivot to more aspirational, and passion oriented products might be hard for some to get behind, it's a pretty hard turn from where Ford has been in the past, but think about it for a moment. 

 

The Chinese are coming on strong, and the market they're dominating in is the super affordable low maintenance A to B transportation appliance crowd. A market Ford used to play in more, and that brands like Kia and Nissan really lean into. But answer me this, what happens when you're Kia, and Nissan, and pretty much the only reason you've ever given customers to buy your cars, because they're cheap, is wiped out overnight because the Chinese are here, and they can beat you on price and quality all day long? You go out of business is the answer. You have literally no breakout attributes for your product that make it a must have. 

 

All these legacy brands relying purely on low cost, appliance type cars have built their empires on sand, and the Chinese players are the rising tide. Ford realized what so many of these other brands haven't. That game is not only unprofitable, there's no future in it, you stick with it, your company goes under. 

 

But if you get people to love your company because it makes awesome products that only you offer, and that they're super passionate about, well then all of a sudden, it doesn't matter what sort of bloodbath is happening to cars selling at 15k because you pivoted your company not to rely on that market anymore. 

 

That doesn't mean you walk away from making affordable vehicles, it just means you come up with ways to make affordable vehicles worth a damn for a change. Like the maverick, or the bronco sport. You find a way to spin affordable vehicles into something worth lusting after so people still desire them even if the Chinese pod car being sold is 5 grand cheaper. You're willing to pay 5 grand more to have the cooler, better car.

[jpd80]

In a way, I commend Ford for its commitment to do more desirable vehicles that replace otherwise

commodity vehicles, what we have to understand is that the so called commodity vehicle markets

have changed  significantly over the past decade. Far form being stripper white goods vehicles,

the competition now comes well appointed with most of the features that customers expect  and

I think that’s what Ford finds really hard to compete against, their own vehicle costs are getting

higher and higher simply because of the way they are designed and captive to supplier elements.

Im hoping that the CE1 project shines a light on how more sub component development can be 

done internally at much lower cost.

Edited April 22 by jpd80

[DeluxeStang]

30 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

In a way, I commend Ford for its commitment to do more desirable vehicles that replace otherwise

commodity vehicles, what we have to understand is that the so called commodity vehicle markets

have changed  significantly over the past decade. Far form being stripper white goods vehicles,

the competition now comes well appointed with most of the features that customers expect  and

I think that’s what Ford finds really hard to compete against, their own vehicle costs are getting

higher and higher simply because of the way they are designed and captive to supplier elements.

Im hoping that the CE1 project shines a light on how more sub component development can be 

done internally at much lower cost.

If CE1 ends up delivering, and by that, I mean it's actually affordable to mass produce while also being high quality and compelling, I believe Ford should have the team that engineered it give the rest of Ford engineering and design a crash course on how to streamline development costs for future ICE products. 

[jpd80]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

If CE1 ends up delivering, and by that, I mean it's actually affordable to mass produce while also being high quality and compelling, I believe Ford should have the team that engineered it give the rest of Ford engineering and design a crash course on how to streamline development costs for future ICE products. 

Yes and by that, free up designs so that they are not as controlled by suppliers and all their software modules.

A reset needs to take place where Ford takes control of its vehicle  designs including software interface,

it must not continue with suppliers having so much control over costs and delivery conditions/constraints.

[rmc523]

16 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Like seriously, has there ever been a time in Ford's entire history when they're making as many cool and interesting products as they are now all at the same time? I honestly don't think so. I know this pivot to more aspirational, and passion oriented products might be hard for some to get behind, it's a pretty hard turn from where Ford has been in the past, but think about it for a moment. 

 

The Chinese are coming on strong, and the market they're dominating in is the super affordable low maintenance A to B transportation appliance crowd. A market Ford used to play in more, and that brands like Kia and Nissan really lean into. But answer me this, what happens when you're Kia, and Nissan, and pretty much the only reason you've ever given customers to buy your cars, because they're cheap, is wiped out overnight because the Chinese are here, and they can beat you on price and quality all day long? You go out of business is the answer. You have literally no breakout attributes for your product that make it a must have. 

 

All these legacy brands relying purely on low cost, appliance type cars have built their empires on sand, and the Chinese players are the rising tide. Ford realized what so many of these other brands haven't. That game is not only unprofitable, there's no future in it, you stick with it, your company goes under. 

 

But if you get people to love your company because it makes awesome products that only you offer, and that they're super passionate about, well then all of a sudden, it doesn't matter what sort of bloodbath is happening to cars selling at 15k because you pivoted your company not to rely on that market anymore. 

 

That doesn't mean you walk away from making affordable vehicles, it just means you come up with ways to make affordable vehicles worth a damn for a change. Like the maverick, or the bronco sport. You find a way to spin affordable vehicles into something worth lusting after so people still desire them even if the Chinese pod car being sold is 5 grand cheaper. You're willing to pay 5 grand more to have the cooler, better car.

 

I think it's a double-edged sword too, though.  Sure there are more enthusiast products, but they're also increasingly ignoring the core segments and dropping products.

 

As pointed out above, hopefully CE1 can come out with some new products that allow Ford to reenter some segments it's abandoning.

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, rmc523 said:

 

I think it's a double-edged sword too, though.  Sure there are more enthusiast products, but they're also increasingly ignoring the core segments and dropping products.

 

As pointed out above, hopefully CE1 can come out with some new products that allow Ford to reenter some segments it's abandoning.

True, but what's stopping Ford from staying in these segments while also making them more enthusiast oriented? Like for instance, using CE1 to make an escape replacement that's sportier, swoopier, and more compelling., 

 

As for reentering other segments, Farley and others have implied a CE1 hatchback/sedan is something we could see from Ford. There was an interview with this smoking tire podcast where he didn't say a sedan or hatch was coming, but he didn't shut the idea down in the slightest. I believe he said specifically that CE1 could enable Ford to reenter those types of segments over time, and that those vehicles are really good for areo which is exactly what you want with an EV. 

 

I believe he also said if Ford brought back a sedan, he wouldn't want it to be something generic, comparing in to something like the BMW 2002 that was really unique for it's day. 

[rmc523]

16 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

True, but what's stopping Ford from staying in these segments while also making them more enthusiast oriented? Like for instance, using CE1 to make an escape replacement that's sportier, swoopier, and more compelling., 

 

As for reentering other segments, Farley and others have implied a CE1 hatchback/sedan is something we could see from Ford. There was an interview with this smoking tire podcast where he didn't say a sedan or hatch was coming, but he didn't shut the idea down in the slightest. I believe he said specifically that CE1 could enable Ford to reenter those types of segments over time, and that those vehicles are really good for areo which is exactly what you want with an EV. 

 

I believe he also said if Ford brought back a sedan, he wouldn't want it to be something generic, comparing in to something like the BMW 2002 that was really unique for it's day. 

 

Ford.  Ford is stopping itself lol.

[DeluxeStang]

55 minutes ago, rmc523 said:

 

Ford.  Ford is stopping itself lol.

Lol. But then again, we have to ask ourselves, what's the point in competing in these commodity segments when there's no profit, no consumer loyalty, and no future for legacy brands? 

[rmc523]

41 minutes ago, DeluxeStang said:

Lol. But then again, we have to ask ourselves, what's the point in competing in these commodity segments when there's no profit, no consumer loyalty, and no future for legacy brands? 

 

But that's the point - work to make the products you're putting in those segments more compelling and unique, rather than endlessly throwing in the towel.

[Rick73]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

I believe he also said if Ford brought back a sedan, he wouldn't want it to be something generic, comparing in to something like the BMW 2002 that was really unique for it's day. 

Sign me up if anything like a 2002.  A good friend’s dad had one and I got to ride around in it quite a few times when I was very young, and there was nothing comparable that I can recall.  Indeed unique for its time.  However, the cost was much higher than common cars of similar size, so I’m not sure how successful it would be if expecting high volume sales.  IIRC the size was similar to a Pinto or a Vega, more or less, but cost and design at a different level.  American cars of similar cost were much larger and powerful, which was what most buyers preferred when 2002 sold new.

 

To be honest, my friend’s BMW 2002 probably influenced me to like smaller cars for a given price more than any other vehicle.  Not sure what would have been similar new car in price back then, but would guess Chevy Impala or Ford Galaxy?  Many Americans still value size so it will be interesting to see what happens with new smaller Fords.  Size versus quality and or luxury as a function of price is the main issue I see.

[Trader 10]

1 hour ago, DeluxeStang said:

Lol. But then again, we have to ask ourselves, what's the point in competing in these commodity segments when there's no profit, no consumer loyalty, and no future for legacy brands? 

You don’t think Toyota or Honda has any loyalty for their small cars/crossovers? And the CE1 vehicles will supposedly be priced similarly to the Escape that is being replaced which Ford says has little profit. I hope the CE1 vehicles will be compelling- the problem is most buyers don’t want an electric vehicle. Ford needs to make the effort it is supposedly making on CE1 on new Escape and Edge models. That’s where the demand is. 

[DeluxeStang]

15 minutes ago, Trader 10 said:

You don’t think Toyota or Honda has any loyalty for their small cars/crossovers? And the CE1 vehicles will supposedly be priced similarly to the Escape that is being replaced which Ford says has little profit. I hope the CE1 vehicles will be compelling- the problem is most buyers don’t want an electric vehicle. Ford needs to make the effort it is supposedly making on CE1 on new Escape and Edge models. That’s where the demand is. 

Young people love EVs, and I'm guessing that's the primary audience for CE1 vehicles. Apparently Ford is hoping to use F1 to promote these EVs, so hopefully that implies at least some of them will be captivating and emotional products. No point in trying to appeal to car and racing enthusiasts if all you have to offer is a bunch of white blobs on wheels. 

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Sign me up if anything like a 2002.  A good friend’s dad had one and I got to ride around in it quite a few times when I was very young, and there was nothing comparable that I can recall.  Indeed unique for its time.  However, the cost was much higher than common cars of similar size, so I’m not sure how successful it would be if expecting high volume sales.  IIRC the size was similar to a Pinto or a Vega, more or less, but cost and design at a different level.  American cars of similar cost were much larger and powerful, which was what most buyers preferred when 2002 sold new.

 

To be honest, my friend’s BMW 2002 probably influenced me to like smaller cars for a given price more than any other vehicle.  Not sure what would have been similar new car in price back then, but would guess Chevy Impala or Ford Galaxy?  Many Americans still value size so it will be interesting to see what happens with new smaller Fords.  Size versus quality and or luxury as a function of price is the main issue I see.

I've thrown the idea out a few times in the past, but we know areo is a huge factor with these EVs. I kinda hope Ford says "If we need to lean into radical areo, let's use that as justification to make vehicles that look really striking". Most affordable compact cars look pretty bland, and generic, but Farley has implied that won't be the case for CE1 EVs.

 

"They won't look anything like people expect, I don't know how people will react, I don't know how you'll react" 

 

"We still want them to be emotional products, they won't look like toasters on wheels" 

 

Just a few quotes from Farley on the styling these CE1 EVs will offer. My guess is they're gonna be very polarizing upon release, a lot of people will love them, a lot of people will say they're ugly. But they won't look generic is my guess. 

[DeluxeStang]

1 hour ago, Rick73 said:

Sign me up if anything like a 2002.  A good friend’s dad had one and I got to ride around in it quite a few times when I was very young, and there was nothing comparable that I can recall.  Indeed unique for its time.  However, the cost was much higher than common cars of similar size, so I’m not sure how successful it would be if expecting high volume sales.  IIRC the size was similar to a Pinto or a Vega, more or less, but cost and design at a different level.  American cars of similar cost were much larger and powerful, which was what most buyers preferred when 2002 sold new.

 

To be honest, my friend’s BMW 2002 probably influenced me to like smaller cars for a given price more than any other vehicle.  Not sure what would have been similar new car in price back then, but would guess Chevy Impala or Ford Galaxy?  Many Americans still value size so it will be interesting to see what happens with new smaller Fords.  Size versus quality and or luxury as a function of price is the main issue I see.

Like what if Ford used areo design to reimagine what a family sedan could look like. Something that looks less like a fusion, and more like a supercar. This, but toned down for production would be really cool. Make the wheels a bit smaller, the roof a little taller, but you see what I have in mind. 

 

The fact that the guy who penned the Ford GT and F1 engineers are all working together to come up with the look has me cautiously optimistic. 

[Rick73]

2 hours ago, DeluxeStang said:

Like what if Ford used areo design to reimagine what a family sedan could look like. Something that looks less like a fusion, and more like a supercar. This, but toned down for production would be really cool. Make the wheels a bit smaller, the roof a little taller, but you see what I have in mind. 

 

The fact that the guy who penned the Ford GT and F1 engineers are all working together to come up with the look has me cautiously optimistic. 

That is no doubt a beautiful car.  Interesting enough though, supercars are not particularly aerodynamic when it comes to energy efficiency.  By that I mean having a low coefficient of drag.  Supercars look sleek, but their shape is most often optimized to create down force, not to cheat the wind.  The Ford GT for example is listed at Cd of 0.35, which compared to many BEVs would be awful at maximizing driving range from a given battery pack.  Looks can be deceiving.

 

Perhaps designers can figure out how to make aerodynamically efficient cars look really cool.  For my taste, there are already many sedans with Cd in 0.20 to 0.22 range which look very nice or at least good enough.  Designers can also make frontal area smaller which is just as important as low Cd.  I think people’s taste change over time with exposure, so vehicles that looked too aero now look more normal.  That should help sales by reducing resistance to aesthetics.

[jpd80]

On 4/24/2025 at 2:43 AM, rmc523 said:

 

But that's the point - work to make the products you're putting in those segments more compelling and unique, rather than endlessly throwing in the towel.

What’s curious about all of this is the price hikes that have occurred not on,y at Ford but all automakers.

I wonder if it’s time to change opinion on what was once considered commodity vehicles that are now

priced a lot higher by all competitors. Maybe they all came to the realisation that buyers will pay more.

[akirby]

49 minutes ago, jpd80 said:

What’s curious about all of this is the price hikes that have occurred not on,y at Ford but all automakers.

I wonder if it’s time to change opinion on what was once considered commodity vehicles that are now

priced a lot higher by all competitors. Maybe they all came to the realisation that buyers will pay more.

[jpd80]

Cause and affect….my recollection was that during COVID and later due to restricted supply of vehicles,

manufacturers jacked up prices and people paid them…so rather than cost push, this was profit push inflation.

Edited April 24 by jpd80

[akirby]

3 hours ago, jpd80 said:

Cause and affect….my recollection was that during COVID and later due to restricted supply of vehicles,

manufacturers jacked up prices and people paid them…so rather than cost push, this was profit push inflation.

It was both.  Costs absolutely went up very quickly for the same reason - low supply high demand.

[jpd80]

7 hours ago, akirby said:

It was both.  Costs absolutely went up very quickly for the same reason - low supply high demand.

There’s a big difference between costs skyrocketing and suppliers being unable to deliver enough parts,

remember the chips and control module shortages that plagued manufacturers…ford was hit hard by this.

 

So now, some of  those commodity vehicles like RAV4 would seem have better margins than before…..

all I’m saying is that it might be worth Ford reviewing some business cases that previously didn’t work..

 

Edit for clarity,

I guess what I’m wondering is if there’s now more money in some of the mass produced vehicle

segments and if that perhaps forces a rethink at Ford but on their terms of course (Escape & Edge?)

Edited April 25 by jpd80

[jpd80]

Ford’s business in Europe and UK faces a different set of challenges to that of North America,

I wouldn’t begin to assume the complexity of decisions required for region specific products.

[rmc523]

On 4/25/2025 at 7:03 PM, jpd80 said:

Ford’s business in Europe and UK faces a different set of challenges to that of North America,

I wouldn’t begin to assume the complexity of decisions required for region specific products.

 

Except Ford's recent decisions have already caused region-specific products (even if I think vehicles like Puma would do well here).

 

Obviously that market has its unique needs, but I also feel some products could be globalized (i.e. I still think a Focus hatch could do ok here) so that we're not having a model entirely market specific.

Edited April 28 by rmc523