MGallun Posted January 8, 2007 Share Posted January 8, 2007 Read the article in the edmonds link they put it on a rear wheel dyno those are real numbers as close as possible I would suspect??? well... that means its pumping out 381hp and 400tq at the wheels? you do realize all the other numbers are the flywheel.. if the toyota is putting that stuff out at the wheels its creating in the neighbor hood of 500hp an tq at the flywheel... so, again i ask, how did they get them numbers? get a certian number at the wheels and guess say 15-20per drivetrain loss? they are guessing... lets wait for the real numbers to come out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
controller Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 well... that means its pumping out 381hp and 400tq at the wheels? you do realize all the other numbers are the flywheel.. if the toyota is putting that stuff out at the wheels its creating in the neighbor hood of 500hp an tq at the flywheel... so, again i ask, how did they get them numbers? get a certian number at the wheels and guess say 15-20per drivetrain loss? they are guessing... lets wait for the real numbers to come out. I believe it was 321hp at the wheels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLaudioF150 Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I believe it was 321hp at the wheels. I think the article states rwhp at 321. Ford better get their act together. Maybe the Tundra won't be the #1 seller, but it is likely to steal some sales from the big 3 thats for sure. I have to give it to Toyota, they did their homework. It fixed the problems with the previous Tundra: size and power. How many years have we been on this board clamoring for bigger engines for the F series?? Now they got a dose of what Toyota can do and what, 2 years before they even have something that can equate to this? Wanna bet Toyota will have a light duty diesel before Ford? Just like the sedans and crossovers, eventually they will take this market too just because they always catch Ford sleeping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
F250 Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 Just FYI, the Hurricane project was resumed BEFORE Mulally took over, and cancellation/resumption has more to do with who was in charge with NA ops and NA pd than Bill Ford. Smith & Martens were in charge when it was suspended, Fields & Kuzak when it was resumed. Oh, ok. I stand corrected. I'm sure Bill had nothing to do with such important decisions about Ford Motor Company's best selling vehicle. The bottom line is the same though: The F-150's top engine is now offically in last place in both torque and horsepower. The 5.4L is the oldest engine in this very competitive class. And then there is the 4-speed automatic transmission it's bolted to. The situation is so bad when engines in this class are compaired Ford isn't even mentioned any more. Their short sighted managment decisions have left Ford's best selling vehicle at a disadvantage and for that there is no excuse. Ford is most likely hopeful the warmed over SuperDuty will steal the show from Tundra this year and buy time for the P415. But the summer of '08 is too far away, Ford need's to find a way to at least get the 6-speed trans into the F-150 NOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Johnson Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 The specs are right here http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2007/tundra/specs.html 5.7-liter DOHC EFI V8, 32-valve aluminum block with aluminum alloy head with Dual VVT-i 381 hp @ 5600 rpm 401 lb.-ft. @ 3600 rpm 20mpg hwy 6-speed automatic Front: Ventilated disc Front diameter: 13.9 in. Rear: Ventilated disc Rear diameter: 13.6 in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenp77 Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 well... that means its pumping out 381hp and 400tq at the wheels? you do realize all the other numbers are the flywheel.. if the toyota is putting that stuff out at the wheels its creating in the neighbor hood of 500hp an tq at the flywheel... so, again i ask, how did they get them numbers? get a certian number at the wheels and guess say 15-20per drivetrain loss? they are guessing... lets wait for the real numbers to come out. So again I say take time and read the article it was putting out 321 hp at the wheels exactly 100 hp more than a 5.4 3v at the wheels, but I do agree it is butt ugly but I suspect a lot of people won't care with numbers like it has and the drivetrain. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 While thinking about this thing being so horribly ugly I had a scary thought, the Tacoma is nearly just aas hideous, and it's the best selling small truck now. Although brand loyalty is highest in large trucks so Ford hopefully has some breathing room until the 09's come out. That's a full 5 years with zero improvements or changes btw. Which is really bad considering they could have easily put a six or even a 5 speed auto in it this year along with tweaking the engine to about 340 horsepower.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 That's a full 5 years with zero improvements or changes btw. Which is really bad considering they could have easily put a six or even a 5 speed auto in it this year along with tweaking the engine to about 340 horsepower.. I wouldn't quite agree with you on that...there has been new trim models of the F-150 and improvements to increase towing capacity. As for the new Transmission, someone posted that the new 6 speed has issues fitting into the current platform and will be corrected in the 09 update. As for the 5.4L, you would figure that they could pull some more horses out of it with the smaller 3v 4.6 matching it in HP...but hopefully they are just putting all the development money into the Boss instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGallun Posted January 9, 2007 Share Posted January 9, 2007 I wouldn't quite agree with you on that...there has been new trim models of the F-150 and improvements to increase towing capacity. As for the new Transmission, someone posted that the new 6 speed has issues fitting into the current platform and will be corrected in the 09 update. As for the 5.4L, you would figure that they could pull some more horses out of it with the smaller 3v 4.6 matching it in HP...but hopefully they are just putting all the development money into the Boss instead. doh, should have read the article lol.. 321hp at wheels is good... too bad they didnt get tq reading... maybe plop the old lightning engine in f150 until new engines come, but not sure how well that would be a tower or cost effective... not much of a truck man, so never really read into them.. bad bad to keep on this old 5.4 for so long, durable but uhhh, ya.. kinda like the 3.0-3.5 sceniaro.. i think alot of that has to do with the old bosses, these new ones i dont think will wait that long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Beeck Posted January 10, 2007 Share Posted January 10, 2007 It looks a little overstroke. Not so much as the Ford 5.4, but still makes the Nissan ZH/VK56DE and the GM Gen IV look like sports car engines. (The Nissan engine looks like I could drop it into a restomod 60s muscle car with Infiniti Q45 or M45 cams and reflashed ECU, and off the shelf Mustang II front suspension and rack and pinion steering, Corvette, Porsche 928, or Mustang Cobra Independant Rear Suspension, and Brembo brakes and make the cover of [super Rod/i]) Personally, I would compromise the bore and stroke at 3.86 inches square. Makes for a much wider powerband. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) How this will affect the F150 is a tough call. From a specifications stand point the F150 is dead... From a looks stand point, I still give the edge to the F150. I loved the pre-2004 look and really do not care for the new one. The New F150 is probably one of the best riding and quitest vehicles that I have ever driven. Notice I do not say "Best Truck" I had ever driven, I said "Vehicle". I think that the F150 will still have the better ride I also give the edge to the F150 on the Interior. To me, the Lariat or King Ranch is the best of what a truck interior should be... I do not know how else to say it... Then there is the bubba factor... Typically, Bubba does not like the "Feren" trucks ( I live in the South ). So, I doubt that Toyota is going to win many of them over no matter what they produce or where the produce it. On the other hand, there is the new "I want to be a bubba" yuppy... This guy is typically a High tech Bubba. He is internet literate and reads every thing about the trucks he can to make his buying decision. He is going to be all over this new Tundra like white on rice. I can already see the new Trundra towing the color matching $50,0000 300hp 80+MPH bass boat now... And then there is the wife factor. Women ( not all, but most ) LOVE Toyotas because they are typically more comforting and reliable than their husbands... If a guy wants a new truck, the wife is more likely to give him the kitchen pass on a Toyota that a Ford. I also have to comment about people saying that this truck was a ringer. All auto manufactures with any common sense would send a top canadate or ringer to be tested. They would be stupid not to do so. However, if we look at the last few new vechicles that Ford sent to Edmunds. One has to hope that these were NOT ringers. Because if they were ringers, it is scary to think how bad will the production units would be!!! Also I saw that at least one other person notice that this Big old Tundra stops 15 or so feet quicker from 60 than the new Escape and Edge.... That particular statistic caught my eye because it kind of shows how much engineering at Ford has droped lately... As for the engines, the News Boss engine looks great on paper. The old 5.4L in my 2000 F150 was a sweet engine that I loved. I would like to see Ford go to Aloy blocks. There is no good engineering reason not to. Aluminum Blocks with Iron sleaves can disipate heat better than a cast Iron block. Heat is what typically kills and engine. Heck I added a Saleen Supercharger to my 2005 4.6L Mustang GT. It is producing well over 500hp and never runs hotter that it did stock. I have been told by reliable sources that the 4.6L V8 block is good for a little over 600hp with no mechanical problems. Heck, the 5.4L in the Ford GT makes over 550hp stock. By the way, the new 5.4L Boss is going into limited production in the new 2007 Boss Mustang later this year. It's aluminum block power plant comes out of the gate at about 400hp/400ft-lb... My best guess: Ford will lose 10-15% of it's F150 sales to the new tundra this year... ( Believe it or not, I think I am being optimistic.... ) Edited January 12, 2007 by sranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLaudioF150 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 How this will affect the F150 is a tough call. From a specifications stand point the F150 is dead... From a looks stand point, I still give the edge to the F150. I loved the pre-2004 look and really do not care for the new one. The New F150 is probably one of the best riding and quitest vehicles that I have ever driven. Notice I do not say "Best Truck" I had ever driven, I said "Vehicle". I think that the F150 will still have the better ride I also give the edge to the F150 on the Interior. To me, the Lariat or King Ranch is the best of what a truck interior should be... I do not know how else to say it... Then there is the bubba factor... Typically, Bubba does not like the "Feren" trucks ( I live in the South ). So, I doubt that Toyota is going to win many of them over no matter what they produce or where the produce it. On the other hand, there is the new "I want to be a bubba" yuppy... This guy is typically a High tech Bubba. He is internet literate and reads every thing about the trucks he can to make his buying decision. He is going to be all over this new Tundra like white on rice. I can already see the new Trundra towing the color matching $50,0000 300hp 80+MPH bass boat now... And then there is the wife factor. Women ( not all, but most ) LOVE Toyotas because they are typically more comforting and reliable than their husbands... If a guy wants a new truck, the wife is more likely to give him the kitchen pass on a Toyota that a Ford. I also have to comment about people saying that this truck was a ringer. All auto manufactures with any common sense would send a top canadate or ringer to be tested. They would be stupid not to do so. However, if we look at the last few new vechicles that Ford sent to Edmunds. One has to hope that these were NOT ringers. Because if they were ringers, it is scary to think how bad will the production units would be!!! Also I saw that at least one other person notice that this Big old Tundra stops 15 or so feet quicker from 60 than the new Escape and Edge.... That particular statistic caught my eye because it kind of shows how much engineering at Ford has droped lately... As for the engines, the News Boss engine looks great on paper. The old 5.4L in my 2000 F150 was a sweet engine that I loved. I would like to see Ford go to Aloy blocks. There is no good engineering reason not to. Aluminum Blocks with Iron sleaves can disipate heat better than a cast Iron block. Heat is what typically kills and engine. Heck I added a Saleen Supercharger to my 2005 4.6L Mustang GT. It is producing well over 500hp and never runs hotter that it did stock. I have been told by reliable sources that the 4.6L V8 block is good for a little over 600hp with no mechanical problems. Heck, the 5.4L in the Ford GT makes over 550hp stock. By the way, the new 5.4L Boss is going into limited production in the new 2007 Boss Mustang later this year. It's aluminum block power plant comes out of the gate at about 400hp/400ft-lb... My best guess: Ford will lose 10-15% of it's F150 sales to the new tundra this year... ( Believe it or not, I think I am being optimistic.... ) Where do you get the info on this Boss Mustang with a 5.4L? I hope so, that'd be SWEET. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) My best guess: Ford will lose 10-15% of it's F150 sales to the new tundra this year... ( Believe it or not, I think I am being optimistic.... ) That's quite pessimistic in my estimation. If the Tundra DOUBLES its sales in one year (quite optimistic in itself) that would account for about 100K or so additional sales. Ford's not losing 10-15% of its share unless almost ALL of those lost sales are going right to Tundra buyers instead. Unlikely. No one else has really pointed this out that i've seen: I see the biggest loser in this battle being the Nissan Titan. It is already the weakest player in the segment, and it is well known that Japanese buyers tend to stick with Japanese products. Many of the people with Titans or those who are currently considering the Titan are likely going to upgrade to a Tundra on their next purchase instead. Edited January 12, 2007 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Where do you get the info on this Boss Mustang with a 5.4L? I hope so, that'd be SWEET. I was a little off, it was the 5.0L Hurricane Engine and more hp that I thought... Here is the specific part of the article... More significant, though, will be the new Boss, which will introduce Ford's all-new 5.0-liter Hurricane V-8. Due late in the year, the limited-edition Boss will get a tuned 425- to 435-horsepower version of the Hurricane, a stripped-down interior (though air-conditioning will be available), and less sound deadening. The idea is to replicate the original Boss Mustang's race-special feel. Only 1000 cars will be built. Here is the link to the Article: http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_ne...7_ford_mustangs As for the 10-15% prediction, that is what I think will happen..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KWMJ-KTP Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) It is a bit odd that there is no mention of Ford. They never failed to hype the Tundra in years past when it looked weak by the numbers. I guess since they didn't even mention Ford, they consider it to be not lying when they say it has the best in class tow rating at 10,800 lbs.. Ford announced a couple weeks back that the 2007 F-150 was rated for 11,000 lbs. Considering that Toyota does not have a Heavy Duty offering, their tow number should be considerably higher than it is. That's fine to compete against the F-150, but Toyota is the one who's been claiming this truck was going to go after the Super/Heavy Duty Trucks. It is clear that the F-150 is in need of a serious revision now, but it has been the benchmark for every competitor, including Toyota and they openly admit it. It wall take a year or so to see just how successful Toyota has cracked the segment, but I doubt that they will get the sales targets that they seek, even though they keep lowering their target number. As to the dyno test, why did they not just put the automatic transmission into 3rd or 4th gear and then there would have been no problems with it shifting. Just makes me wonder if they did do this and the result was not what they wanted to see, and just omited it from the article, just as they omitted Ford from the article entirely. Edited January 12, 2007 by KWMJ-KTP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
05fordgt Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) I was a little off, it was the 5.0L Hurricane Engine and more hp that I thought... Here is the specific part of the article...Here is the link to the Article: http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_ne...7_ford_mustangs As for the 10-15% prediction, that is what I think will happen..... Stranger, I wouldn't put ANY credience into that MT article (considering that is from an issue several months ago). Its already been confirmed that the next SE Mustang will be the Bullitt, in 2008 (so that rules the BOSS out this current model year). The Boss is basically set (all but officially announced) to come out sometime in the 2009 model year (job #1 or #2). Now, the most recent news on the BOSS Mustang is that Ford's Mustang team WILL NOT show ANYTHING until they "get it right". I take this to mean that they won't release any info, pics, specifications, prototypes until they get the car to be like the past BOSS Mustangs. HTT and the crew know they can't F*** this car up, hence the secrecy of it, to get it what a Boss Mustang should be. Believe me, I don't doubt the car, IT WILL COME, but just when and what will it consist of is anyone's guess. Edited January 12, 2007 by 05fordgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinneticBrian Posted January 14, 2007 Share Posted January 14, 2007 They're joking with this thing - right? I don't know how this truck will fare elsewhere, but I can say with full confidence that most of your rural and midwestern Ford/GMC/Chevy buyers won't give this thing a look, except to maybe look at it with total disgust. Look how long it took Dodge to even become a contender, much less a serious one in the truck market. I know several guys who refer to Dodge as "Brand-X" to this day because of the crap they built a generation ago. Toyota, Nissan and the rest of them are referred to as "Jap Crap" by these same guys who represent a pretty good cross section of big truck buyers and who will never touch an imported car, much less the heretical move of an imported truck. The Japanese should have kept building tiny trucks which they were good at - they will never be serious contenders in the American Truck Market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 They're joking with this thing - right? I don't know how this truck will fare elsewhere, but I can say with full confidence that most of your rural and midwestern Ford/GMC/Chevy buyers won't give this thing a look, except to maybe look at it with total disgust. Look how long it took Dodge to even become a contender, much less a serious one in the truck market. I know several guys who refer to Dodge as "Brand-X" to this day because of the crap they built a generation ago. Toyota, Nissan and the rest of them are referred to as "Jap Crap" by these same guys who represent a pretty good cross section of big truck buyers and who will never touch an imported car, much less the heretical move of an imported truck. The Japanese should have kept building tiny trucks which they were good at - they will never be serious contenders in the American Truck Market. I remember reading an article about 25 years ago that said the same thing about Japaneese cars not being able to be a serious contender in the Auto market... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bec5150 Posted January 16, 2007 Share Posted January 16, 2007 25 years ago: The Honda Civic, Datsun 310, and Toyota Corolla are JUNK! They won't even run on the interstate. They rust to the ground, and the little 4cyl engine won't pull itself down the road. 20 years ago: Toyota calls that a VAN?? Looks like a breadbox with wheels. Oh, and that pickup truck. Rusted down to the frame. What a POS. They'll never do anything in the American Market in trucks. And as far as sedans, America has the Taurus. Eat our dust, TOYOTA!! 12 years ago: Toyota and Honda have NO MINIVAN. Toyota has the Previa, replacing their breadbox with an Egg. Honda thought a jumbo station wagon with a third row seat would get it done. Eh, what do they know!!?? Present day: Toyota calls that a truck!!?? HAHAHAHA!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KinneticBrian Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 I remember reading an article about 25 years ago that said the same thing about Japaneese cars not being able to be a serious contender in the Auto market... Cars are one thing, trucks are entirely another. Casual truck owners in the burbs of major cities will likely flock to the Toyota because it's something different, but your hardcore truck users will never take to this thing. Car buyers tend to be a little more flexible as do minivan buyers. This Toyota, like the Nissan Titan has its place, but will never be a sales stealing class leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebritt Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 25 years ago: The Honda Civic, Datsun 310, and Toyota Corolla are JUNK! They won't even run on the interstate. They rust to the ground, and the little 4cyl engine won't pull itself down the road. 20 years ago: Toyota calls that a VAN?? Looks like a breadbox with wheels. Oh, and that pickup truck. Rusted down to the frame. What a POS. They'll never do anything in the American Market in trucks. And as far as sedans, America has the Taurus. Eat our dust, TOYOTA!! 12 years ago: Toyota and Honda have NO MINIVAN. Toyota has the Previa, replacing their breadbox with an Egg. Honda thought a jumbo station wagon with a third row seat would get it done. Eh, what do they know!!?? Present day: Toyota calls that a truck!!?? HAHAHAHA!!!! The sarcasm is well noted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenson88 Posted January 17, 2007 Author Share Posted January 17, 2007 I don't see any sarcasm in that post. I see a lot of truth. All the American automakers have left is trucks. If they underestimate that segment like they have everything else, then it'ss game over. The good thing is I don't think any of the Big 3 are underestimating the truck segment at all. Look at the offerings compared to 10 years ago, there's been a revolution of interior quality, work capability, and power. Yes, Ford has the low-po motor of the group right now, but that will hopefully be changing with the next refreshening, but Toyota doesn't have much advantage compared to GM or Dodge with their new truck, and the new Tundra doesn't even have a better interior than the domestics which was always a thorn in the Jap vs domestic argument. If anything Toyota had understimated the segment for years (similarity to domestic cars vs import cars anyone?) and is only now playing catch-up. They certainly didn't leap-frog anyone in the segment with the new Tundra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 Present day: Toyota calls that a truck!!?? HAHAHAHA!!!! Not quite the same thing, I haven't looked at sales numbers for small pickups, but since GM screwed up and Ford let the Ranger rot on the vine, they still had the best selling small pickups for years on end... As for Large pickups, Toyota has been trying to crack the large pickup market for over 10 years now (check for the T-100) and only sells about 125K of them a year. They might be come players in the large truck market, but as for taking it over....that will take another 25 years if ever, esp since Ford and GM see that they are a threat, finally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecon Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 You have a choice between the 381HP Toyota pickup and the 300HP Ford pickup with the same fuel mileage and Toyotas rep for quality. The 50% of the people that are not brand loyal will not consider the Toyota? BEC is right!HAHAHAHA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 17, 2007 Share Posted January 17, 2007 You have a choice between the 381HP Toyota pickup and the 300HP Ford pickup with the same fuel mileage and Toyotas rep for quality. The 50% of the people that are not brand loyal will not consider the Toyota? BEC is right!HAHAHAHA! I'd say Ford's reputation for building good trucks would supercede Toyota's reputation for building a quality vehicle in most consumers' eyes. Toyota's reputation for building a quality product doesn't really extend to fullsize pickups. People remember the T100 and the previous generation Tundra. We shall see with this year's sales of both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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