Holden's cat out of bag - SS off to America

[jpd80]

I can see Sizzler's problem here since, as you indicate as well, this announcement has a lot of conflicting info in it. Assuming the car will be made here then there is no way it could be available by the end of thise year, or even the beginning of next, unless planning was already well underway which doesn't seem to be the case. Assuming the car will be imported the price seems off since 25k would be much cheaper than anything else in GM's lineup given what you get, even assuming that is for a 3.6L V-6 equipped model. When you add the cost of importation to the mix this doesn't seem plausible. I could buy the notion that GM will import the car until production is ready to rampuup here in North America, but then it would seem likely that GM would lose money at that price level until such a time, a scenario I find difficult to believe they would accept.

 

Remember, this is Bob Lutz letting information slip before he should. The model he spoke of and confirmed by Holden Australia chief Denny Mooney is the Commodore SS-V, a luxury version of the V8 SS sports Commodore. This is the only model slated and the exports will come from South Australia's Elizabeth plant which is already producing these LHD models badged as Chev Luminas for the Middle East. The hold-up is for Federalisation (US$15 Million & red tape)

Bob Lutz indicated two volumes - 30,000 and if they get the price right, 50,000. If Lutz's price of US$25,000 is to be believed then Pontiac are going for the throat with 50,000 order, otherwise I recon it could be more like US$28,000, for a 30,000 shipment - still a reasonable price.

 

Seems like other people can make cheap platforms besides Ford and their D2C eh ?

Edited January 11, 2007 by jpd80

[BlackHorse]

I stil have trouble seeing $25,000 for this car. It would be great and I think that's a fair price. But I also think that by and large car companies are pretty greedy and they know that there's plenty of people that will pay $30,000 for it. Then those same people wonder why one year later their brand new 30K car is only worth 20K and the reason is they're overpriced to begin with and the market is now telling you what it's really worth. But that's a market wide problem, with all manufacturers. So long as people are willing to pay for an overpriced car they can't really get upset when it depreciates like a rock in a pond.

 

At $25,000 I think these cars would never see the lot and if they did it would only be long enough to offload them from the car carrier and hand the keys to the owner. Heck at $25,000 I'd have to seriously consider one. They would be wildly popular. It wouldn't be long before you would start seeing them all over ebay for $30,000 and up. Car companies aren't the only greedy people in America you see.

[jpd80]

I stil have trouble seeing $25,000 for this car. It would be great and I think that's a fair price. But I also think that by and large car companies are pretty greedy and they know that there's plenty of people that will pay $30,000 for it. Then those same people wonder why one year later their brand new 30K car is only worth 20K and the reason is they're overpriced to begin with and the market is now telling you what it's really worth. But that's a market wide problem, with all manufacturers. So long as people are willing to pay for an overpriced car they can't really get upset when it depreciates like a rock in a pond.

 

At $25,000 I think these cars would never see the lot and if they did it would only be long enough to offload them from the car carrier and hand the keys to the owner. Heck at $25,000 I'd have to seriously consider one. They would be wildly popular. It wouldn't be long before you would start seeing them all over ebay for $30,000 and up. Car companies aren't the only greedy people in America you see.

 

 

LOL, Maybe old Lutzy has dyslexia of the mouth. Anyway we'll have to wait for Chicargo.....or anothe Lutz interview

If true, it means a new round of Car Wars, now that's gotta be good for sales.

 

BTW,

 

Also, Ford Australia insiders have said that we "shouldn't be surprised" if we see the E8 Falcon platform under a production version of the Interceptor so personally I think we'll see the Falcon platform in the USA although Ford, as usual, is keeping all of their cards close to their chest.

Edited January 11, 2007 by jpd80

[bec5150]

I stil have trouble seeing $25,000 for this car. It would be great and I think that's a fair price. But I also think that by and large car companies are pretty greedy and they know that there's plenty of people that will pay $30,000 for it. Then those same people wonder why one year later their brand new 30K car is only worth 20K and the reason is they're overpriced to begin with and the market is now telling you what it's really worth. But that's a market wide problem, with all manufacturers. So long as people are willing to pay for an overpriced car they can't really get upset when it depreciates like a rock in a pond.

 

At $25,000 I think these cars would never see the lot and if they did it would only be long enough to offload them from the car carrier and hand the keys to the owner. Heck at $25,000 I'd have to seriously consider one. They would be wildly popular. It wouldn't be long before you would start seeing them all over ebay for $30,000 and up. Car companies aren't the only greedy people in America you see.

I tend to agree. I don't think they could even sell the 6cyl here for 25, let alone the V-8 version. Truth be told though, they better not go much over that or they won't have any takers.

 

I always felt the GTO was a winner in every way but price. I mean, really, go price the current Mustang GT or 300/Charger HEMI at over 40K and see how many takers you get.

[ebritt]

I tend to agree. I don't think they could even sell the 6cyl here for 25, let alone the V-8 version. Truth be told though, they better not go much over that or they won't have any takers.

 

I always felt the GTO was a winner in every way but price. I mean, really, go price the current Mustang GT or 300/Charger HEMI at over 40K and see how many takers you get.

The GTO is nothing special and will soon be forgotten. A freind of mine has one, paid 40K for it and it is boring.....fast...but boring. It's just a G6 with lots of ponies.

[Paul Selby]

The GTO is nothing special and will soon be forgotten. A freind of mine has one, paid 40K for it and it is boring.....fast...but boring. It's just a G6 with lots of ponies.

 

Your freind got screwed. He paid 40K for a car that stickers at 33K and sells for 28-30K. I agree there not much to look at but the GTO is an outstanding car for the money. The GTO is for someone wanting power with comfort but not flash. For people more concerned with performance than retro looks, the GTO is a ton better deal than the Mustang IMHO. This is from a guy that has purchased 5 new Mustangs over the years. The thing that killed the GTO was people putting "bling" ahead of performance, the old farts wanted a retro looking GTO. Everyone seems to forget the original GTO also wasn't much to look at. IMHO GM should have sold it as a Chevy Monte Carlo, no worries about retro and it's a world better than the odd looking front drive shit box currently being sold.

[jpd80]

Those G8s may be a "loss leader" to sweeten the patch before the arrival of Camaro and GTO.

Previously in Australia, Holden would offer their Commodores to large fleets at 40% discount of retail price and theres every chance FOA did the same.

During 2006 Holden trimmed this back to 22% discount off retail so bare with me as I show you the math:

 

Holden SS-V / Pontiac G8 RRP = AUS$46,000 or US$35,800

Assume 40% Discount for USA = AUS$18,400 or US$14,352

Our new Landed Price for USA = AUS$27,600 or US$21,528

 

These prices don't include shipping prices or OTR Charges but I think you get the Idea.

I don't think they would settle for the 22% discount as the price would end up around US$28K to US$30K and probably stagnate sales.

If Lutz is to believed, you guys are about to get the deal of a lifetime.

Edited January 12, 2007 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

The thing that killed the GTO was people putting "bling" ahead of performance, the old farts wanted a retro looking GTO. Everyone seems to forget the original GTO also wasn't much to look at. IMHO GM should have sold it as a Chevy Monte Carlo, no worries about retro and it's a world better than the odd looking front drive shit box currently being sold.

 

No Duh, why do you think the V6 Mustang sells so well? Or why people like appearance packages that have all show and no go??

 

As for GTO from the 60's, anyone under the age of 35 wasn't around when the car was in production...and know next to nothing about the name for the most part. GM should have made it appeal to the people who know what it was by making it look like a GTO then they what they did. Its nearly impossible to compare the Mustang to GTO, the Mustang is a cultural icon, where the GTO is a performance footnote in the Car business with very little name recognition outside the age of people who where old enough to experance it or performance enthusiasts. Even with GM's limted sales projections, it still fell flat on its face and had huge incentives to move it.

[ebritt]

Your freind got screwed. He paid 40K for a car that stickers at 33K and sells for 28-30K. I agree there not much to look at but the GTO is an outstanding car for the money. The GTO is for someone wanting power with comfort but not flash. For people more concerned with performance than retro looks, the GTO is a ton better deal than the Mustang IMHO. This is from a guy that has purchased 5 new Mustangs over the years. The thing that killed the GTO was people putting "bling" ahead of performance, the old farts wanted a retro looking GTO. Everyone seems to forget the original GTO also wasn't much to look at. IMHO GM should have sold it as a Chevy Monte Carlo, no worries about retro and it's a world better than the odd looking front drive shit box currently being sold.

Oh yeah he got screwed! But that's what they are going for around here. It is an "ok" looking car but is not worthy of the GTO nameplate by any means. It would have sold better as a Grand Prix GTP at 28 to 30 grand, but not as a GTO. Just taking a G6 and putting a huge motor in it doesent make it a GTO.

[VetteZ06]

I can't wait to see how that Piece of Shit score on JD powers and others.

 

Holdens are such pieces of shit I'd never buy another again in my life.

 

Right, this is how mature people express their opinions...

[Paul Selby]

No Duh, why do you think the V6 Mustang sells so well? Or why people like appearance packages that have all show and no go??

 

Bad day at work or did I do something to piss you off? Thanks for pointing out the obvious to me, pretty much the point I was making. Unlike most people I put performance ahead of looks, well.... unless it's Aztec ugly. I don't understand show and no go or the big retro craze. My first Mustang was an '88 5.0 LX coupe. It was very bland looking, even more so than the GTO but I didn't care because it was about the straight line performance for me. V-6 and Mustang are two things that should never be together.

[Blueblood]

It's very simple people, the reason the GTO was a failure was because it was 2 doors only, ugly (looked like a bloated Cavalier), and only came in one expensive high-po model.

 

Just imagine if the Mustang was only sold as the GT500, no base V6's or GT's.

 

A 4 door Falcon, sold under Ford, with a base V6, midlevel V8, and high end V8 would be a completeely different story.

 

Same goes for GM, the new Holden actually looks good, and doesn't look like bloated 2 door Cavalier or Grand AM, has a range of engines, and most importantly, is a 4 door!

 

Why is this so hard to grasp??

 

 

[bec5150]

Your freind got screwed. He paid 40K for a car that stickers at 33K and sells for 28-30K. I agree there not much to look at but the GTO is an outstanding car for the money. The GTO is for someone wanting power with comfort but not flash. For people more concerned with performance than retro looks, the GTO is a ton better deal than the Mustang IMHO. This is from a guy that has purchased 5 new Mustangs over the years. The thing that killed the GTO was people putting "bling" ahead of performance, the old farts wanted a retro looking GTO. Everyone seems to forget the original GTO also wasn't much to look at. IMHO GM should have sold it as a Chevy Monte Carlo, no worries about retro and it's a world better than the odd looking front drive shit box currently being sold.

I dunno where you saw one for that price, but I saw one at the 2005 auto show and one at the 2006 auto show and both were way over 40. The 2006 show I think had one over 45K.

[NickF1011]

I dunno where you saw one for that price, but I saw one at the 2005 auto show and one at the 2006 auto show and both were way over 40. The 2006 show I think had one over 45K.

 

Perhaps for the first 3 months they were out. After that, Pontiac could barely give them away. I know a few people who have picked up 05-06 GTO's for around $27K. You could probably find one now for even less, as there are still a couple thousand of them collecting dust on dealer lots even though they stopped production on them months ago.

[georgejetson]

Why can GM bring in a V8 Holden for $25,000 NOW but the GTO had to cost $35,000+++++???? They look pretty similar cars, what made the GTO cost $10K more, 40% more, with two fewer doors?

 

They may look pretty similar but they're completely different. The GTO (MSRP around $33k, btw, not $35k+) was derived from the Monaro, a fairly expensive limited-production car that was costly to build due to high levels of hand-work, that was based on an older platform, and that hadn't originally been designed with LHD or US regulations in mind. The Commodore is a mass-market sedan, designed from the outset with the US market in mind, built on a bleeding-edge modular global platform (Zeta) designed for flexible assembly, and assembled on a modern line that is running under capacity at the moment because Holden RWD sales are slumping due to competition from Asian brands.

 

Very different calculations.

 

And no, I don't believe they'll be selling LS2-powered super sedans here for $25k. I do, however, believe that they'll offer considerably better bang for the buck than the GTO and than the Mopar LXs -- $31k-ish, or about what they're asking now for the FWD V8 Grand Prix, for a well-equipped 400 hp G8 isn't out of the question.

 

How does this Holden's dimensions measure up against the Interceptor's? Length, width, wheelbase?

 

The Commodore is 4894 mm (192.6") long and has a wheelbase of 2915 mm (114.8"), according to Holden.com.au. How big is the Interceptor?

Edited January 12, 2007 by georgejetson

[NickF1011]

UPDATE:

 

According to a post over on GMI (damn them for constantly scooping BON these days), the G8 will be produced by Holden in Australia for the '08 and '09 model years, and then switch over to the Oshawa #2 plant with the Impala and Camaro for the '10 model year.

 

So it appears that GM is prepared to suck up losses on the first two models years and import it here until there is more affordable production capacity ready for it in North America.

[Paul Selby]

I dunno where you saw one for that price, but I saw one at the 2005 auto show and one at the 2006 auto show and both were way over 40. The 2006 show I think had one over 45K.

 

 

Every dealer I've gone to had a sticker between 33 and 34K. The base price is $33,290 and it can only go up a few hundred from there. Very few factory options on the GTO, extra for the 18 inch wheels and extra for the 6 speed. You must have seen one with dealer add ons and quite a few at that. I don't think it's possible to have a factory sticker price over 34K for one.

 

 

http://www.pontiac.com/gto/index.jsp

 

Local dealer sticker

[georgejetson]

UPDATE:

 

According to a post over on GMI (damn them for constantly scooping BON these days), the G8 will be produced by Holden in Australia for the '08 and '09 model years, and then switch over to the Oshawa #2 plant with the Impala and Camaro for the '10 model year.

 

I think that was in one of the Detroit papers this morning -- the source was some anonymous GM flack "clarifying" Lutz's comments at NAIAS.

[jpd80]

I think that was in one of the Detroit papers this morning -- the source was some anonymous GM flack "clarifying" Lutz's comments at NAIAS.

 

That makes sense, the VE Commodore was released august 2006 so by the end of 2008 it would have panel changes for a newer VF Commodore to answer Ford AUS 2008 Orion Falcon.

[Ben Beeck]

UPDATE:

 

According to a post over on GMI (damn them for constantly scooping BON these days), the G8 will be produced by Holden in Australia for the '08 and '09 model years, and then switch over to the Oshawa #2 plant with the Impala and Camaro for the '10 model year.

 

So it appears that GM is prepared to suck up losses on the first two models years and import it here until there is more affordable production capacity ready for it in North America.

 

Well, considering the current rate of exchange with the Australian Dollar, it's actually cheaper to build it in Oz.

[ebritt]

It's very simple people, the reason the GTO was a failure was because it was 2 doors only, ugly (looked like a bloated Cavalier), and only came in one expensive high-po model.

 

Just imagine if the Mustang was only sold as the GT500, no base V6's or GT's.

 

A 4 door Falcon, sold under Ford, with a base V6, midlevel V8, and high end V8 would be a completeely different story.

 

Same goes for GM, the new Holden actually looks good, and doesn't look like bloated 2 door Cavalier or Grand AM, has a range of engines, and most importantly, is a 4 door!

 

Why is this so hard to grasp??

 

 

HEY!!!.............Nothin wrong with a Cavalier!!!

Edited January 17, 2007 by ebritt