RichardJensen Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 I have not seen the article in usa today that you are referring to....just a little puzzled because it does not sound like a toyota engineer is saying these things just the author's opinion? Richard I agree with you that ford has done a pretty good job of making sure the f series truck stays at or near the top (unlike the ranger that has a huge folowing with small truck needs) I honestly believe that they will build a better truck because toyota and nissan are in that segment now.... agree? toyota sells around 125k a year with their current 9/10th of a truck.....personally I think they will have no problem taking away another 75k a year from their competitors. I don't really like the looks but it is the newest vehicle out there, has some class leading features and they are entering the largest segment in the us auto industry-close to 3 million? http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-01-07-tundra_x.htm Also, why else would Toyota justify the decision to keep C channel? What other reasons could they cook up to justify using a lower cost part? Further, I don't necessarily believe that the presence of Toyota and Nissan will improve the Ford product. Neither Nissan nor Toyota have premiered features that Ford does not have, and which Ford was not slated to get ahead of time. The Nissan has nothing but a very crappy from the factory spray-in liner option, and the Tundra has a 6-speed. Dodge, not Toyota pioneered the jumbo-cab, and it's not clear Ford will follow. Ford was already planning a 6-speed for the F150 And from a comfort and ease of use standpoint, the 170 degree extended cab doors on the GMTs are the big news, not Toyota's decision to use painted surfaces in a vehicle that is going to get a lot of scuffs. Toyota and Nissan are still feeling their way. Toyota is doing a better job than Nissan, but neither is really pushing the state of the art in this segment. Therefore, I say that absent Toyota, the 2009 F150 would be much the same as it will be with the Tundra in the market. Sure, there may be more of a sense of urgency, but I don't necessarily think that will change what is and is not included. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Toyota should do like Ford and copy that box frame off of GM. The GMT800s were the first trucks with hydroformed front frame members. The 2003 Ram was the first tuck with box section behind the cab. What are you talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WC-MAN Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Toyota released the first true Taurus competitor version of the Camry in 1997, in 2000 it was the top selling car in America. If the new Tundra is actually competitive with Ford, I wouldn't take bets that they won't overtake the F-150 in a similar amount of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 anyone want to have a bet saying the new tundra wont sell over 200k this year? and the fseries will still sell at least 500k... If ford does not sell at least 800k of F series trucks it will be a bad year. 500k and "the other shoe just fell!" I would not bet against toyota right now for anything. They almost always under promise and over deliver. Thank goodness this is the company that Mulally is benchmarking instead of VW or Mercedes or Renault or ...well you get the point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecon Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 The GMT800s were the first trucks with hydroformed front frame members. The 2003 Ram was the first tuck with box section behind the cab. What are you talking about? OK. Toyota should do like Ford and copy the box frame off of Dodge. Better? :boring: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 (edited) Ford didn't just copy the Dodge box frame. They improved it. Don't believe me? Compare payload and tow ratings. BTW: Folks--notice how Ford, which has long had a reputation for the toughest frame in the business, lagged GM by SIX YEARS in hydroformed front frame rails, and wasn't even the first in the industry with boxed frame rails behind the cab. And the world didn't end, and Ford remained the #1 selling pickup. Edited January 11, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 And the world didn't end, and Ford remained the #1 selling pickup. While I agree that the f series is the best selling "name plate" I think it is misleading because GMC and Chevy combined have higher sales. I just wish we could find out more about the 09 truck coming. Glad to know that Field's asked the team to do more than what they had originally planned. Kind of scary to think how they could of screwed up the crown jewels of the corporation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 I'm perturbed at their current TV advertisements..ie camparing an older 1/2 ton differential with the new LARGER Toyota differential...who is to say it is not from THEIR previous model Tundra! Ahhhh, the art of advertising tomfoolery, sadly some people will be convinced, there is no doubt Ford should be deep int developement of a new F150 and being PRO-active instead of RE -active and one up them SOON! Toyota WILL cut into their marketshare regardless...so hurry up Ford.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellcat_F6F Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 Anyone that's ever bult a demo derby car, knows that there is no comparison between C channel and boxed. Or, anyone who's ever been HIT in a demo derby knows!! Toyota might think otherwise..but they don't run derbies in Japan and they don't run Toyotas in derbies here. C channel is poo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 11, 2007 Share Posted January 11, 2007 While I agree that the f series is the best selling "name plate" I think it is misleading because GMC and Chevy combined have higher sales. I just wish we could find out more about the 09 truck coming. Glad to know that Field's asked the team to do more than what they had originally planned. Kind of scary to think how they could of screwed up the crown jewels of the corporation! 1) If wishes were horses..... 2) It's unlikely that they would've screwed up the crown jewels. They have a system. It works. It's that simple. Even if Fields hadn't ordered a ground up review of the program, the F-Series was getting a better powertrain, reduced weight, better safety equipment, added features (like wide opening rear doors on the SuperCabs, etc.) and probably incrementally higher payload and tow ratings. Why can that be said with confidence? Because that's Ford's development PROGRAM for the F150. It's just how they do stuff. No 'let's pull out all the stops' and give 'er the good ol' college try. Ford knows what they're doing here, and they do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
68Cougar Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) anyone want to have a bet saying the new tundra wont sell over 200k this year? and the fseries will still sell at least 500k... I can see that happening. 200k is still nothing to sneeze at, it is still 200k not bought at a domestic lot. As for all this talk about frames and hauling, you guys act like the majority of trucks ever actually see real work. Edited January 12, 2007 by 68Cougar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nonvalue Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 OK. Toyota should do like Ford and copy the box frame off of Dodge. Better? :boring: Which is better during a crash boxed frame rails or c-channel????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecon Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Which is better during a crash boxed frame rails or c-channel????? Are you the riddler? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJSteve3 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 While I don't think that Toyota takes the market by storm, they will easily double their stake in the market in the next two to three model years, and keep doubling it for the next two three year cycles after that. That seems pretty aggressive, no? The Tundra sold about 125k units in 2005 and again in 2006. Assuming an "easy" doubling of stake every three years for the next nine, as proposed, they will be selling a million Tundras in the US in 2015. 125 - 250 - 500 - 1000. I'll be betting the under. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NLPRacing Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 As for all this talk about frames and hauling, you guys act like the majority of trucks ever actually see real work. Good point. My 2001 F150 has over 80,000 trouble free miles on it and about 50,000 of those miles came about with just me in the driver seat and an empty bed going back and forth to work. But, there were times I've had it loaded down (sometimes overloaded) pulling my old 28' enclosed car hauler and my parent's 27' travel trailer where I was glad that Ford over-built such a tough truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jd87 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) Boxed frames can be better than C-channel, but you absolutely CAN NOT follow the 03 and newer dodges. Yeah, they're boxed, but that's all they say. No one notices that those boxed rails are sooooooo thin, and all of the mounts(body and springs) are sooooo thin, and they're only welded on. they tear off from any light impact. Whereas the fords have for decades had VERY thick frames and mounts that are held on buy huge rivets. Much stronger than the new POS dodges that aren't any stronger than the 70's chevy frames. At our shop a couple years ago, we had a 2001 super duty and a 2004 ram 2500, both diesel crewcab longbeds, sitting next to each other with the bodies off of both. (FWIW, the ford was rolled and getting a new cab, while the dodge spun it's bed into a tree, and was getting a new frame) you would not believe how much cheap junk was sitting there, especially next to the super duty running gear. also the dodge body is as thick as a beer can. the only thing they have going for them is the cummins. I know none of the domestic's bodies are as strong as they used to be, but holy crap, the dodge quality is nonexistent compared to the fords and chevies. And Toyota, ha. they're fun little play toys, but nothing more. until they even try to build something as strong as any of the domestics(even dodge), they need to STFU. Edited January 12, 2007 by jd87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 As for all this talk about frames and hauling, you guys act like the majority of trucks ever actually see real work. Meh. If Ford lost its reputation among 'power users', they wouldn't have much else going for them. Ford has to keep their 'alpha' consumers happy. It's no different with the Mustang. Ford may sell 60% V8s and 45% to women, but that all stops if they don't offer enough goodies for the 11/10ths crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Meh. If Ford lost its reputation among 'power users', they wouldn't have much else going for them. Ford has to keep their 'alpha' consumers happy. It's no different with the Mustang. Ford may sell 60% V8s and 45% to women, but that all stops if they don't offer enough goodies for the 11/10ths crowd. So what are the right move to do between now and 2009? How do you consolidate and improve that segment? Boost sales by a limited option pack of a 6-speed auto as fitted to your 5.4 in Expedition(?) and maybe some other extras at a small premium? Some good advertising campaigns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 So what are the right move to do between now and 2009? Advertising. Anything else is a distraction. The new F-150 is going to launch in about 18 months. Doing ANYTHING in the meantime to the existing model is tantamount to either throwing that money away or sending it to me in small unmarked bills. In the past, trucks were updated on about an 8 year cycle with little, if anything, done in the meantime. Now Ford is launching a substantially new F150 five years after the last ground-up redesign, and you have people on this board saying they're not doing enough, fast enough. These people would be well advised to contact engineers at GM and Toyota and see if they like being able to hold "new kid on the block" status for less than two years. Especially seeing that neither truck moves the bar significantly when compared with the three year old F150. Engineers at GM, DCX, Toyota and Nissan do not have the attitude displayed frequently on this board, that Ford is not doing enough with the F-Series. Like the recent announcement by Toyota, that diesels are too expensive for widespread adoption in passenger cars, which mirrored a Ford announcement from about a day earlier, those inclined to knee-jerk criticism of everything Ford does as inherently inadequate are advised to adjust their perceptions. I can assure you GM's truck team does not dismiss Ford's F-Series program, even if they continue to enjoy a paper advantage in horsepower and torque. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 There is, in fact, on this board, a certain arrogance about Ford that would be lethal at any of Ford's competitors. The derisive and dismissive comments about Ford, if embraced at GM, DCX, Toyota, or Honda, would be dangerous. What is said about Ford now, on these boards, was said about Japan in general, and about Japanese products in particular, after WWII, and even on into the 70s. If it was foolish to say those things about Japan then, it is every bit as foolish to be categorically negative about Ford today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 (edited) It's easy to sucker punch when things are tough but, if you have the right equipment in a good package , persistance pays off. Getting that flywheel of loyal return consumers, guaranteed sales is money in the bank - something ford needs now.I hope they stick with efficient engines even though horsepower may not be quite there, the torque sure is. I think some competitor's engines are about to run foul of the new EPA regulations. Some of that cheaper and older power shortcuts GM and Chrysler have may be a blind alley. Edited January 12, 2007 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 "If it's better, I will buy it". I don't care what "it" is, nor do I care who makes "it". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Granted, my predicctions about Toyota's growth in the truck segment are perhaps a bit agressive, but, there is history there. Look at what Toyota and Honda did to the Taurus in the 90s. In the space of a decade, they both managed to triple their volume in that segment. If Toyota took 50K units from Dodge, 100K units from Ford and 125K units from Chevy/GM, that's 275 K units, and a total volume of over 400K units. With a competitive truck and their reputation, it's entirely possible that they could do it in three to four years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Granted, my predicctions about Toyota's growth in the truck segment are perhaps a bit agressive, but, there is history there. Look at what Toyota and Honda did to the Taurus in the 90s. In the space of a decade, they both managed to triple their volume in that segment. If Toyota took 50K units from Dodge, 100K units from Ford and 125K units from Chevy/GM, that's 275 K units, and a total volume of over 400K units. With a competitive truck and their reputation, it's entirely possible that they could do it in three to four years. apples and oranges The domestics literally gave the segment away. This time around they are going to put up a fight. Is it to late? Are camry owners just waiting for a real Toyota truck? I dunno but I do know your comparison is fundamentally flawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted January 12, 2007 Share Posted January 12, 2007 Granted, my predicctions about Toyota's growth in the truck segment are perhaps a bit agressive, but, there is history there. Look at what Toyota and Honda did to the Taurus in the 90s. In the space of a decade, they both managed to triple their volume in that segment. If Toyota took 50K units from Dodge, 100K units from Ford and 125K units from Chevy/GM, that's 275 K units, and a total volume of over 400K units. With a competitive truck and their reputation, it's entirely possible that they could do it in three to four years. Owner loyalty in the car segment has never been what it has been with trucks. That's the only issue I see with your argument. When was the last time a car was the best-selling model for 20+ years in a row? Never. The Camry hasn't even led car sales for 10 years. Seems people have a pretty short memory. It really wasn't THAT long ago that Ford and Honda were playing back-and-forth with the sales lead. On the other hand, the F-series has been the best-selling truck for most of my life! The Camry was barely even around the last time the F-series WASN'T the best-selling truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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