Ford/Navistar: on the rocks

[matthewq4b]

http://www.epa.gov/autoemissions/detailedchart.pdf

 

This has your answers. But it is hardly the easiest thing to read.

 

Ford's diesels fall under California's MDV4 & 5 classifications (essentially, Class 2-4 vehicles). In California the emission standards depend on the weight of the vehicle (heavier vehicles can be dirtier).

 

EPA regs do not distinguish between weight classes. The F250 is under the EPA's MDLV classification. Federal regs on Class 3 & higher vehicles are not, apparently, listed on this table.

 

 

 

From what I can see it looks like the Euro V regs are pretty much on par with the US Teir 2 regs For Light duty comercial vehicals. Unless of course I,m reading it wrong.

 

Euro Regs

 

Rember these are in grams per KM so you will have to multiply the amounts by 1.609 to get grams per mile.

 

So if I'm reading right it seems the US and EU 5 regs are pertty much going to match each other. Could mean good news for us here in NA that want deisels.

 

But it is also going to mean proboly adding AdBlue or an equivelent to the vehicals.

If the fuel milage gains cover the cost of the stuff it should not be an issue for most consumers. And with the milage gains avalible in the new gen Diesles over gasoline it should make the purchase of the additive less painful.

 

The vehicals will operate with out it but at reduced performance as per soon to be implimented EU regs. Volvo already does that in thier trucks and buses. I imagine it would be no different here in regards to those regs.

 

Currently the biggest problem with AdBlue is operating in temps below -25c As the stuff will freeze if left in those temps for more than 24 Hrs. It is good to -15C I guess it is going to mean heaters in the resvoir. And a auto start to charge the batteries or to warm the engine coolant for the heaters. Not that is a big deal as alot of the artic car starters have settings that automatically start the vehical and let it run for 10 or 15 mins after sitting for so long in sub zero temps. This is an alternative to Diesel or gas fired coolant heaters.

 

Although Im sure they will figure a way to lower the freeze point of AdBlue to more resonable -40 or 50c for subartic and artic operation.

 

Matthew

Edited January 22, 2007 by matthewq4b

[RichardJensen]

I just think it's funny we're measuring things in grams/mile. Kind of an odd SI/UK combo.

[Stray Kat]

Nope, Mattew you are not wrong with the Volvo truck diesel idea, but I don't like it. I never have liked the idea of outsourcing engines for Ford vehicles. The Powerstrokes at least have some Ford involvement I guess. I can't believe that Ford in all these years would not have their OWN diesel designs on the drawing boards or in prototype stages at all times. This should always be the case. Trusting such an important part of your future to another entity is frankly irresposible. I say scale the Ford 4.4 Lion diesel up to about 7.0 liters and win the game by yourself. Is'nt the engineering already done on that engine family? Scale the darn thing up and go!

[White99GT]

More likely even less reliable.

 

Wanna bet?

 

Your saying Ford is (ir)responsible for the shift to high pressure common rail ( HPCR)?

Don't know about that one. The 6.4 will be much more Ford developed than the 6.0 ever was however.

 

One would have thought these guys would have developed half an IQ and gone with the CAT ACERT design. Afterall, it was the CAT injected 7.3 that put Ford and the SDs on the map.

 

The old Cat HEUI system was always a weak spot with the 7.3s. Oil foaming and the dreaded idle knock where the biggest issues with the 7.3, both HEUI-related.

[Blue II]

The next gen Ford diesel will be in house. It will be 6.7 liters. The code name is Scorpion.

[Joe771476]

If I'm not mistaken, Ford paid $6 billion just for Volvo cars! They would have been better off with the trucks, marine engines, highway diesel engines, buses and construction equipment!

[bravestar]

If I'm not mistaken, Ford paid $6 billion just for Volvo cars! They would have been better off with the trucks, marine engines, highway diesel engines, buses and construction equipment!

 

Did you used to work for Ford Heavy Trucks Division? Your knowledge about Ford's giving away a valuable and profitable assist still boils in you understandably. I too would like to see Ford in the future back in Class 8.

[RichardJensen]

Joe: The rest of that stuff was not for sale.

[Edstock]

Volvo is also PREVOST buses. Ford made buses, once.

 

http://www.hcry.org/TTC792.HTM

 

Edited January 22, 2007 by Edstock

[7Mary3]

Ford sold their heavy truck division because it wasn't profitable, even after the redesigned HM80 Louisville/Aeromax trucks were introduced in 1996. Ford had a reputation for building a low cost-low quality fleet truck, and the majority of their heavy truck sales were low bid sales to fleets. The line was dropped when Ford figured out that if the Louisville plant was converted to light duty trucks and SUV's, Ford could make as much profit on one F-350 as they did on 3 heavy trucks. I think selling the heavy duty line to Freightliner was one of the few smart things that Jac Nasser did.

[matthewq4b]

Joe: The rest of that stuff was not for sale.

 

I think the Volvo group used some of the of the money from the sale of Volvo Cars to Ford to finance the purchase of other interests. Cough Cough Mack.

 

And yes Prevost (Pronounced Pree-Vo, it is French ya know) and Nova are sort of just included in Volvo Buses.

 

Ford should have developed their own in house program. But since that did not happen. Why not buy the engines from a world leader. And from a company that shares a Ford name plate. The Volvo group still links to Volvo Cars on their site. Not sure why Ford did not sell their heavy trucks to Volvo but I doubt it fit in to the Volvo Heavy Mantra. Which for the most part a complete Volvo unit with no out sourced engines. Mack fit that bill perfectly.

 

 

The point of the posts was to show that there are other options besides Navi. And the alternatives are not all bad and could actually be a benefit.

 

No need for those monster 7 liter or even 6 liter plus Diesels . The 5.5 Volvo has equivalent or better HP and torque than engines a 1/3 rd larger. In much more reliable and durable package.

 

Unlike Road diesels the 5.5 Is designed for acceleration under max load and to do it as quick as possible and maintain full power under load for hours on end. These are no slow up revving units Volvo is trying to build Diesels for marine applications that traditionally was the domain of high power gas engines.

 

A 500Hp 850 Ft lbs of torque diesel would be akin to strapping a rocket booster on the back if used in a light or medium truck. Volvo designed these engine to replace Hi power Gasoline engines in performance applications. Such as fast high power and jet boats. The engines can not be the heavy lumbering diesels of the past as they are meant to replace the small and big block gas V8's in package of similar weight with more power faster acceleration better fuel mileage and in a much safer manner.

 

These new gen of smaller diesels are ideally suited to Medium and light truck applications. Much better I think than some of the stuff that is actually turning up in the trucks.

 

The Volvo 5.5L 435 Hp could feasibly be up rated to to nearly 500Hp and 849 Ftlbs of torque in the truck applications with out loosing any durability.

 

That is only a 15% increase in power. And that is on the low end of the 15-20% derating we see in Volvo diesels when going from road to Marine applications.

 

All of Volvo's new diesels are DOHC 4 Valve engines. Even the large 12 liter units

 

If Ford released a Diesel super duty with 475Hp and near 800 Ftlbs of torque in it (expandable to 500 and 850), it pretty much would put the Light-Medium truck segment on it's ear.

And send every one scrambling ,they would be playing catch up for the better part of a decade. And any dreams that Yota had of ever being a major player in the heavy P/U segment in near future would pretty much be dashed right then and there.

 

Using a Volvo diesel should not be an issue. As it would add thousands upon thousands of sales of what are other wise a relatively low volume engines.

 

It would give Volvo heavy some valuable experience out side of Rigs and construction equipment in NA. Right Now NA is screaming for a smaller mid sized Transit bus. Road certifying the 5.5 would make the transition in to a medium sized bus a snap or the higher load end of the Medium truck market. Which right now is dominated by Navi.

With Nova and Prevost already in place in NA the mechanism is there to market just such a bus here in NA.

 

It could be a win win for both companies.

 

Ford would receive about the best mid displacement diesel on the planet. Volvo group would get a massive injection of cash flow. And it would help open the doors to the heavy medium truck segment in NA.

 

Ford either needs to In house the Program or get the best units available. It would not take long for the Volvo diesels to earn a rep better then Cummings used in the Dodge.

 

The Europeans are literally years ahead of us in Diesel development. And of them Volvo is leading the pack.

 

 

Matthew

[nonvalue]

I think the Volvo group used some of the of the money from the sale of Volvo Cars to Ford to finance the purchase of other interests. Cough Cough Mack.

 

And yes Prevost (Pronounced Pree-Vo, it is French ya know) and Nova are sort of just included in Volvo Buses.

 

Ford should have developed their own in house program. But since that did not happen. Why not buy the engines from a world leader. And from a company that shares a Ford name plate. The Volvo group still links to Volvo Cars on their site. Not sure why Ford did not sell their heavy trucks to Volvo but I doubt it fit in to the Volvo Heavy Mantra. Which for the most part a complete Volvo unit with no out sourced engines. Mack fit that bill perfectly.

The point of the posts was to show that there are other options besides Navi. And the alternatives are not all bad and could actually be a benefit.

 

No need for those monster 7 liter or even 6 liter plus Diesels . The 5.5 Volvo has equivalent or better HP and torque than engines a 1/3 rd larger. In much more reliable and durable package.

 

Unlike Road diesels the 5.5 Is designed for acceleration under max load and to do it as quick as possible and maintain full power under load for hours on end. These are no slow up revving units Volvo is trying to build Diesels for marine applications that traditionally was the domain of high power gas engines.

 

A 500Hp 850 Ft lbs of torque diesel would be akin to strapping a rocket booster on the back if used in a light or medium truck. Volvo designed these engine to replace Hi power Gasoline engines in performance applications. Such as fast high power and jet boats. The engines can not be the heavy lumbering diesels of the past as they are meant to replace the small and big block gas V8's in package of similar weight with more power faster acceleration better fuel mileage and in a much safer manner.

 

These new gen of smaller diesels are ideally suited to Medium and light truck applications. Much better I think than some of the stuff that is actually turning up in the trucks.

 

The Volvo 5.5L 435 Hp could feasibly be up rated to to nearly 500Hp and 849 Ftlbs of torque in the truck applications with out loosing any durability.

 

That is only a 15% increase in power. And that is on the low end of the 15-20% derating we see in Volvo diesels when going from road to Marine applications.

 

All of Volvo's new diesels are DOHC 4 Valve engines. Even the large 12 liter units

 

If Ford released a Diesel super duty with 475Hp and near 800 Ftlbs of torque in it (expandable to 500 and 850), it pretty much would put the Light-Medium truck segment on it's ear.

And send every one scrambling ,they would be playing catch up for the better part of a decade. And any dreams that Yota had of ever being a major player in the heavy P/U segment in near future would pretty much be dashed right then and there.

 

Using a Volvo diesel should not be an issue. As it would add thousands upon thousands of sales of what are other wise a relatively low volume engines.

 

It would give Volvo heavy some valuable experience out side of Rigs and construction equipment in NA. Right Now NA is screaming for a smaller mid sized Transit bus. Road certifying the 5.5 would make the transition in to a medium sized bus a snap or the higher load end of the Medium truck market. Which right now is dominated by Navi.

With Nova and Prevost already in place in NA the mechanism is there to market just such a bus here in NA.

 

It could be a win win for both companies.

 

Ford would receive about the best mid displacement diesel on the planet. Volvo group would get a massive injection of cash flow. And it would help open the doors to the heavy medium truck segment in NA.

 

Ford either needs to In house the Program or get the best units available. It would not take long for the Volvo diesels to earn a rep better then Cummings used in the Dodge.

 

The Europeans are literally years ahead of us in Diesel development. And of them Volvo is leading the pack.

Matthew

 

 

OH!!! Baby now you're talkin the Ford 350 , 450 etc with a Volvo or Cummins diesel (perferably VOLVO)...I'm sportin a chubby just thinkin about it .... Just don't let Power Train or the bean counters touch it ..... Like use this wiring harness

[7Mary3]

Why didn't Ford sell their heavy truck line to Volvo? Simple, Volvo didn't want it! Freightliner wanted Ford's heavy truck division because Freightliner was weak in the vocational end of the market (construction, trash hauling, municipal). With Ford, Freightliner figured they could 'buy' their way into those markets. Was it a good idea? To a point. Sterling, as it is now called, has yet to sell as many trucks as Ford was in class 8, but they remain strong in the vocational market. Some say the Sterling is built better than the Fords were. As for Volvo building diesels for Ford light trucks, I don't think it is very likely. My guess is that the next Powerstroke will be an in-house design.

[kenp77]

OH!!! Baby now you're talkin the Ford 350 , 450 etc with a Volvo or Cummins diesel (perferably VOLVO)...I'm sportin a chubby just thinkin about it .... Just don't let Power Train or the bean counters touch it ..... Like use this wiring harness

For you diesel guys I was reading on flat rate tech reports from some techs that have seen the new 6.4L powerstroke and they are saying it is as big a POS as the 6.0 that it uses the same head gaskets and head bolts as the 6.0 and that it will be impossible to work on in the truck they are already dreading it's appearance. FWIW as I am not a diesel guy??

[01FOCI]

For you diesel guys I was reading on flat rate tech reports from some techs that have seen the new 6.4L powerstroke and they are saying it is as big a POS as the 6.0 that it uses the same head gaskets and head bolts as the 6.0 and that it will be impossible to work on in the truck they are already dreading it's appearance. FWIW as I am not a diesel guy??

 

Well as I am also not a diesel tech, however I dont recall the 6.0 having issues with the head gaskets and bolts. Sure there where probably failures but not out of the normal failure rate such as with the EGR, Turbos and sensors. The core block of the 6.0 appears to be of a sound design with with some folk reporting trouble free operation once initial turbo, egr etc problems where resolved. This does not include the early 03's that Ford mostly bought back though. So back to topic I highly doubt the block is a piece of crap. Its interesting to see all the naay sayers trashing Ford before the thing has even come out, probably rebuilding their ego's after they talked trash to the dodge owners before the 6.0 came out. By buddy for some God only knows reason bought an 07 Dodge after decades of his father and then him buying Fords for their buisness. To date he hates the seats (comfort wise) Thinks the interior plastic, fit finish etc... is CHEAP crap. He bought it for 2 reasons: 1 it has a cummins. 2 he and father are sick of Fords BS in standing behind their product (lack of) and finacial mis-management...

[White99GT]

For you diesel guys I was reading on flat rate tech reports from some techs that have seen the new 6.4L powerstroke and they are saying it is as big a POS as the 6.0 that it uses the same head gaskets and head bolts as the 6.0 and that it will be impossible to work on in the truck they are already dreading it's appearance. FWIW as I am not a diesel guy??

 

To do any engine work on the new 6.4 the body has to come off. Ford knew it so all of the harnesses have quick disconnects and they changed up how the body bolts on the make is easier to remove.

 

It sounds bad, but even with the 7.3s & 6.0s this was always the easiest way to do engine work, it just wasn't a Ford approved procedure. Now it is Ford approved so it is going to make life easier on techs, once they realize it they will quit their bitching, but it will make repairs harder on a guy at home who doesn't have access to a lift.

[RichardJensen]

Y'know, I saw the engine bay on the Edmunds review and thought --- HOLY CRAP!

 

Then to read that the new 'approved' way of working on the engine is to take the front of the vehicle off.

 

Plus the huge grille required to sustain a 12 ton tow rating.

 

These things are miniature semis.

 

Maybe the next Super Duty will have a semi-style tilt-forward body for easy access to the engine.

 

Having multiple engine options warranted by the engine mfr. would also fit the 'mini big rig' metaphor.

[White99GT]

I'm sure it's pretty scary to see your new $50,000 SD as a rolling chassis with the cab suspended in the air above it.

[RichardJensen]

Yeah. I can see it now, just like in the medical dramas.... something has to be done to the truck, anxious 'parents' trying to get a good look, while technicians usher them out of the service bay......

 

Diesel tech: "It's pretty bad, we have to strip the body to the firewall!"

 

Concerned owner: "you're going to WHAT?"

 

Diesel tech: "Get them out of here! NOW!"

 

Service attendant: "I'm sorry we need you to leave" (stands in front of owner, to obstruct view of techs unbolting fenders and removing hood assembly from firewall)

[White99GT]

Yeah. I can see it now, just like in the medical dramas.... something has to be done to the truck, anxious 'parents' trying to get a good look, while technicians usher them out of the service bay......

 

Diesel tech: "It's pretty bad, we have to strip the body to the firewall!"

 

Concerned owner: "you're going to WHAT?"

 

Diesel tech: "Get them out of here! NOW!"

 

Service attendant: "I'm sorry we need you to leave" (stands in front of owner, to obstruct view of techs unbolting fenders and removing hood assembly from firewall)

 

Lol....I don't doubt that is too far from reality.

Edited January 23, 2007 by White99GT

[7Mary3]

Y'know, I saw the engine bay on the Edmunds review and thought --- HOLY CRAP!

 

Then to read that the new 'approved' way of working on the engine is to take the front of the vehicle off.

 

Plus the huge grille required to sustain a 12 ton tow rating.

 

These things are miniature semis.

 

Maybe the next Super Duty will have a semi-style tilt-forward body for easy access to the engine.

 

Having multiple engine options warranted by the engine mfr. would also fit the 'mini big rig' metaphor.

Actually, the class 7 and 8 truck manufacturers are moving away from offering multiple engines of different makes.

[Joe771476]

Yes Richard, I know the Volvo truck line wasn't for sale, I was just saying they would have been better off with it! To 7Mary3, let me say this: The Hartford CT area water operation as well as the CT and MA state highway depts. used to be almost 100 percent Ford vehicles, from cars to pickups to mediums and heavies. They even had -- and still do -- Ford mowing tractors and payloaders! But when they sold the heavy truck unit, these municipal entities as well as thousands across the nation found they couldn't buy the beloved L-series any longer. So Ford lost that "we can sell you everything edge." Once these operations were forced to go non-Ford it opened the door for competition to get in the door. Now, when you go by these operations, you see Chevy and Dodge pickups, International, Freightliner and Sterling heavies AND mediums! You don't see any Ford mediums there. The cars are no longer all-Ford. Do you know how much Ford lost? In my opinion, hundreds of millions! My belief was that when you had school bus, construction vehicle, vocational, fire apparatus drivers etc. driving Fords they might have thought to themselves, "Gee, Ford makes a pretty good big truck, maybe I should buy a Ford car or pickup."

[kenp77]

Yeah. I can see it now, just like in the medical dramas.... something has to be done to the truck, anxious 'parents' trying to get a good look, while technicians usher them out of the service bay......

 

Diesel tech: "It's pretty bad, we have to strip the body to the firewall!"

 

Concerned owner: "you're going to WHAT?"

 

Diesel tech: "Get them out of here! NOW!"

 

Service attendant: "I'm sorry we need you to leave" (stands in front of owner, to obstruct view of techs unbolting fenders and removing hood assembly from firewall)

Rich:I know this is meant to be tongue in cheek sarcasm but god it is going to be so real it is scary??

[nonvalue]

Yes Richard, I know the Volvo truck line wasn't for sale, I was just saying they would have been better off with it! To 7Mary3, let me say this: The Hartford CT area water operation as well as the CT and MA state highway depts. used to be almost 100 percent Ford vehicles, from cars to pickups to mediums and heavies. They even had -- and still do -- Ford mowing tractors and payloaders! But when they sold the heavy truck unit, these municipal entities as well as thousands across the nation found they couldn't buy the beloved L-series any longer. So Ford lost that "we can sell you everything edge." Once these operations were forced to go non-Ford it opened the door for competition to get in the door. Now, when you go by these operations, you see Chevy and Dodge pickups, International, Freightliner and Sterling heavies AND mediums! You don't see any Ford mediums there. The cars are no longer all-Ford. Do you know how much Ford lost? In my opinion, hundreds of millions! My belief was that when you had school bus, construction vehicle, vocational, fire apparatus drivers etc. driving Fords they might have thought to themselves, "Gee, Ford makes a pretty good big truck, maybe I should buy a Ford car or pickup."

 

Hence the request for "VOLVO" engine... Ask any super duty owner about their truck... Love the interior, the room, the ride, cargo capacity, etc.... wish it had a different motor, man that Cummins sure is quiet..... VOLVO would put them over the top, talk about conquest sales, I thought Alan had questions about all the different platforms, maybe an opportunity exist to consolidate resources

[7Mary3]

Lol....I don't doubt that is too far from reality.

 

No, it is worse. The WHOLE CAB has to come off for major repairs, not just the front sheetmetal.