Ford/Navistar: on the rocks

[RichardJensen]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...PDATE/701120464

 

It doesn't seem likely the long term relationship between these two companies will survive.

[NickF1011]

:happy feet:

[Hemiman]

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic...PDATE/701120464

 

It doesn't seem likely the long term relationship between these two companies will survive.

 

 

No way! Nav is not going to push its biggest customer away, and Ford has no place better to go for diesels. And IIRC the issues with the 6.0 were due to FORD spec changes. Nav diesels are excellent engines providing great service in everything except EARLY 6.0 SD Fords.

 

What I would like to see is Ford build SD trucks with engine and trans options just like they do with the F-600 on up. Wouldn't it be nice to spec out your pickup just like the bigger trucks.

[Blue II]

Some sources indicate Ford will build it's own 6.7 PSD along with the Lion 4.4 Diesel in Mexico.

[Stray Kat]

Will someone in the know please explain how the Ford/Navistar relationship works regarding diesel engines. I am told that Ford is responsible for "some" of the engineering of the Powerstroke diesels. Can we truely call this a Ford engine, or is it just a Ford spec Navistar engine? What are the particulars of this relationship as it stands?

[J-150]

Some sources indicate Ford will build it's own 6.7 PSD along with the Lion 4.4 Diesel in Mexico.

 

 

would that be in the plant they co-own and co-produce LCFs in?

 

Sounds to me like they are getting deeper into bed with each other.

[RichardJensen]

I don't see how you'd build engines in a truck plant.

 

BTW: This does pose interesting questions about the Ford/International Truck thing (not only did they collaborate on the LCF, they also collaborated on the F650 & F750/Durastar series).

 

Given the extremely close working relationship between these companies, there must've been a serious breakdown in order for things to come to this over the PSD.

[LincolnFan]

Screw them, they screwed Ford before, now it's payback time.

[J-150]

I don't see how you'd build engines in a truck plant.

 

BTW: This does pose interesting questions about the Ford/International Truck thing (not only did they collaborate on the LCF, they also collaborated on the F650 & F750/Durastar series).

 

Given the extremely close working relationship between these companies, there must've been a serious breakdown in order for things to come to this over the PSD.

 

 

 

exactly where I was going RJ.

 

I don't think this is anything other than business. I don't expect Ford/Navistar to collapse.

[7Mary3]

Interesting questions indeed. As for the F-650 and 750, my understanding is that these are basically International trucks with Ford cabs, built at International's plant in Mexico. If they were to become a victim of a Ford-Navistar fued, I don't think that in itself would cause Ford a lot of harm. Ford doesn't seem to be selling many of them, and the high volume commercial Fords are the F-450 and F-550. The primary issue is the Powerstroke diesel.

[Bob Rosadini]

It doesn't seem likely the long term relationship between these two companies will survive.

 

 

I would say its just a dispute between two business partners. I would think, both have a mutual interest in the ongoing success of their relationship. Ford is International's largest engine "customer". Their joint venture truck plant in Escobedo Mexico, (Bluediamond), builds F-650/750 and the LCF which is sold with both Ford and International badges.

 

While any court action is never a good thing-beyond the expense of it all- if there is no good dispute resolution language in their partnership, then perhaps the legal system is the only way out.

 

And if my memory serves me right, this isn't the first time they have battled in court. Did they not have a major issue over the cost of an International engine plant in Alabama?

 

Again, not a good thing, but as the bumpersticker says..."Shit Happens!"

[triton-boy]

Interesting questions indeed. As for the F-650 and 750, my understanding is that these are basically International trucks with Ford cabs, built at International's plant in Mexico. If they were to become a victim of a Ford-Navistar fued, I don't think that in itself would cause Ford a lot of harm. Ford doesn't seem to be selling many of them, and the high volume commercial Fords are the F-450 and F-550. The primary issue is the Powerstroke diesel.

the scary part is ford tried to cut a buck and leave it to outside sources and now it bites them on the ass.now the poor guy who has it says screw forrd iam going to gm or better yet toyota tundra..and us little guys will pay the price cause billy jr sure dont eat macaroni dinner as a main course.but.hey somehow its a uaw fault.....................

[White99GT]

No way! Nav is not going to push its biggest customer away, and Ford has no place better to go for diesels. And IIRC the issues with the 6.0 were due to FORD spec changes.

 

Nope. The International trucks had most of the 6.0 issues, just like the Ford SDs. The 6.0s have a bad reputation even outside of the Super Duty line. The 6.4 is *mostly* Ford, the wiring harness, emissions, egr, etc are all Ford designed and sourced unlike the 6.0. Wanna bet that the 6.4 is going to be much, much more reliable than the 6.0?

 

Nav diesels are excellent engines providing great service in everything except EARLY 6.0 SD Fords.

Where? I haven't talked to anyone who has been impressed with the 6.0s longevity or reliability, even large companies who use the Internationals in fleets. The 6.0 has issues in all applications, and a much shorter service life than the 7.3.

 

What I would like to see is Ford build SD trucks with engine and trans options just like they do with the F-600 on up. Wouldn't it be nice to spec out your pickup just like the bigger trucks.

 

It would be nice if you could option out an F-250, F-350 or F-450 with a Cat, Cummins or 6.4.

Edited January 14, 2007 by White99GT

[Max]

...and Ford has no place better to go for diesels...

 

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that...what about diesels from Volvo? Has Ford ever explored the possibilities of Volvo Diesels?

 

Ultimately, though, being able to option out the F-250s and up with different diesels would be the best bet. Those who want their Cats, Cummins, etc. can have them then. I would imagine that's a ways away though...but it would make the next Gen Super Duty (redone from the ground up) unbeatable.

[Stray Kat]

I wonder how come no one ever answers the question I asked in post #5. It will not hijack this thread only add context to it, which is why I asked now. Is it because no one really knows or is it just stupid? I have asked the same thing on other boards and no one ever answers. Are the Navistar diesels just a product Ford buys? Were they created for Ford in the first place? How much Ford engineering expertise goes into them. Can we call them, at least partially a Ford product? What's up?

[RichardJensen]

I believe it's answered in post #13.

 

It's been my understanding that International engineered the turbos, block and heads, and sourced the injectors. Ford did the emissions controls and PCM software.

 

I believe that the injectors are a potential source of dispute.

[Hemiman]

to be much, much more reliable than the 6.0?

 

Where?

 

 

MY fleet.

 

I've got utility bucket trucks, Internationals, (7.3 & 6.0) Fords (7.3 & 6.0) & GMC's (6.5). The Int & Ford 7.3's Have been the best. The GMC 6.5s have been horrid, (truck is too heavy). The 6.0s Have been great too, both Ford & Int. We did however have some issues on the early Ford 6.0.s requireing re-flash of the ECMs. But none of the problems discussed here on the internet. Some of my friends who manage fleets for other companies have had the same issues I've had with the Fords. Same solution, re-flash. NO ONE I know has had problems with IH 6.0's. These are just my observations.

 

When I asked the Ford rep why the difference, he said it was due to the emissions requirements for the Ford aplication. The IH's are a heavier class of truck. This would explain the problems being mostly on the pickups. Much lighter than either my Fords or IH's

[Turbine Power]

I wonder how come no one ever answers the question I asked in post #5. It will not hijack this thread only add context to it, which is why I asked now. Is it because no one really knows or is it just stupid? I have asked the same thing on other boards and no one ever answers. Are the Navistar diesels just a product Ford buys? Were they created for Ford in the first place? How much Ford engineering expertise goes into them. Can we call them, at least partially a Ford product? What's up?

 

In the US I don't think anybody makes their own truck diesels. i've heard that Navistart uses different injectors... and I"m sure they work with Navistar on some of the engineering since they have to develop systems and components that play well with the engine... what's the point of the question?

[Blue II]

I wonder how come no one ever answers the question I asked in post #5. It will not hijack this thread only add context to it, which is why I asked now. Is it because no one really knows or is it just stupid? I have asked the same thing on other boards and no one ever answers. Are the Navistar diesels just a product Ford buys? Were they created for Ford in the first place? How much Ford engineering expertise goes into them. Can we call them, at least partially a Ford product? What's up?

 

International sourced Seimens injectors. Ford wanted Bosch because they offered better controllability for emissions and reliability.

[victorydave]

No way! Nav is not going to push its biggest customer away, and Ford has no place better to go for diesels. And IIRC the issues with the 6.0 were due to FORD spec changes. Nav diesels are excellent engines providing great service in everything except EARLY 6.0 SD Fords.

 

What I would like to see is Ford build SD trucks with engine and trans options just like they do with the F-600 on up. Wouldn't it be nice to spec out your pickup just like the bigger trucks.

 

Errr..Ford is going to build their own Diesel 2010 or 2011. Nava-junk sold this motor to Ford stright off the drawing board.... virtually ALL development was done at Ford test facilities, we had less than a year to fix all the problems (not enough time for a new Engine fer sure) Nava-junk even came to us to get some Engine oil samples (a must for all Diesel engine development testing and everyone does this)! The 6.4 shares some of the 6.0 problems cause it's the same Moe-da! The 7.3 had about 1 1/2 years development time in it when ford took it over ( it was going to into a military vehicle but Nava lost the contract plus Ford had two years to fix some of the problems.

Ford has purchased the rights to Isuzu's diesel program and it's plant too.(You will see the first Diesel go into a Ranger) After all 20 years ago Ford was the second largest producer of Diesel engines on this planet. we can do this (if theres enough people left to do the work

[bolita]

Errr..Ford is going to build their own Diesel 2010 or 2011. Nava-junk sold this motor to Ford stright off the drawing board.... virtually ALL development was done at Ford test facilities, we had less than a year to fix all the problems (not enough time for a new Engine fer sure) Nava-junk even came to us to get some Engine oil samples (a must for all Diesel engine development testing and everyone does this)! The 6.4 shares some of the 6.0 problems cause it's the same Moe-da! The 7.3 had about 1 1/2 years development time in it when ford took it over ( it was going to into a military vehicle but Nava lost the contract plus Ford had two years to fix some of the problems.

Ford has purchased the rights to Isuzu's diesel program and it's plant too.(You will see the first Diesel go into a Ranger) After all 20 years ago Ford was the second largest producer of Diesel engines on this planet. we can do this (if theres enough people left to do the work

 

I thought that Toyota bought into Isuzu recently...

 

On another note, it seems that the 3.0 L powerstroke that is installed into the Argentinean Ranger is a dud as well as was the 2.5 years ago...

[ANTAUS]

LINK-Wardsauto.com

[LSFan00]

I know this has been discussed, but maybe the Ford diesel center is gearing up some larger units;

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/14/au...enter/#comments

The January issue of Automotive Engineering magazine has a report on the Ford Dagenham Diesel Center in England. A couple of years ago Ford decided to consolidate all of their diesel engine production at their Dagenham engine plant near London. They opened a new factory next to their existing facility and also included two 280-ft. tall wind turbines to provide power to the new plant. The two plants have a capacity to produce over 1 million diesel engines in 2007. The new engine plant is producing new 2.7L V-6 and 3.6L V-8 diesels that are used in various Jaguar, Land Rover and PSA vehicles. The new V-8 is a twin-turbo that they are building for use in Range Rovers puts out 472 lb-ft of torque and 278 hp. Unfortunately, although the engines are Euro 4 compliant, they don't yet have emissions after-treatment and won't meet new US emissions standards.

[Bob Rosadini]

I know this has been discussed, but maybe the Ford diesel center is gearing up some larger units;

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/14/au...enter/#comments

The January issue of Automotive Engineering magazine has a report on the Ford Dagenham Diesel Center in England. A couple of years ago Ford decided to consolidate all of their diesel engine production at their Dagenham engine plant near London. They opened a new factory next to their existing facility and also included two 280-ft. tall wind turbines to provide power to the new plant. The two plants have a capacity to produce over 1 million diesel engines in 2007. The new engine plant is producing new 2.7L V-6 and 3.6L V-8 diesels that are used in various Jaguar, Land Rover and PSA vehicles. The new V-8 is a twin-turbo that they are building for use in Range Rovers puts out 472 lb-ft of torque and 278 hp. Unfortunately, although the engines are Euro 4 compliant, they don't yet have emissions after-treatment and won't meet new US emissions standards.

The rest of you old farts out there might remember that the first Ford diesels in this country were the "Dorset and the Dagenham". I believe they were 330 and 363 cubic inches respectively and were in line sixes that powered medium duty trucks such as the N series and the C series. This was really before there were any decent medium duty diesels.

 

Aren't the new engines those that were developed jointly with Peugot?

[peterstern]

If Ford is developing new diesels with Peugot, that would be a good thing.

 

In my view, none of the Navistar diesels used by Ford have never approached being world class.

 

If you've ever commuted by bike and had to occassionally ride behind the odd diesel vehicle... there is a huge difference between the VW and Mercedes diesels compared to the diesels found in Ford, GM and Dodge (except for the Sprinter) vehicles . You notice very quickly that the European diesels pollute WAY less. And when you look at their specs, you realize that they produce way more power per cubic inch at the same time.

 

Just look at the 5cyl in the Sprinter... 154 HP from 2.8L... 55HP/L... and that's an older Mercedes design. Ford's "new" 6.4 only gets 50HP/L.

 

 

 

The rest of you old farts out there might remember that the first Ford diesels in this country were the "Dorset and the Dagenham". I believe they were 330 and 363 cubic inches respectively and were in line sixes that powered medium duty trucks such as the N series and the C series. This was really before there were any decent medium duty diesels.

 

Aren't the new engines those that were developed jointly with Peugot?