Tico

You and your friend represent a small percentage of the 3500 to 5500 mustangs sold each month. The average buyer is in their 50s. In end the market is just not big enough to justify investing in this platform. And there is a good chance it will get smaller as the muscle car market has been for decades now.

I never thought about the muscle care market dying completely. But the average age of buyer is getting quite high compared to other segments I bet. It remains to be seen in 2035 if anyone in their 30s or 40s wants a two door coup any longer. Hell they barely sell 10,000 a month now combined! Most of the younger (under 40) car guy people I know are into hot hatches and compact imports (think Focus S/T) not Mustangs and Challengers. Any BEV crossover will be able to come out with a "sport" trim level that matches muscle car performance if there is a market. So why buy a two door thing with trunk? That may sound sacrilegious to boomers and gen x, but millennials and gen z will be driving the market buy 2035. Hot small crossover BEV = evolution of the hot hatch market? Software updates are right up the alley of 20 somethings who are building there own gaming computers and jail breaking there phones today and flying drones. There will always be performance versions of some vehicles sold. What shape they will take is good question. Again it sure would be nice if they used the same names as the performance ICE legends once they are gone. Original point of muscle cars was lots of horse power per dollar spent. As long as that carries forward why not. There will be a BEV Mustang coup as long as enough people are willing to buy them. For myself if the 2030 Mach E Crossover and Mach E coupe are the same car with different body, why wouldn't I take the hatch and have a little more utility?

Sucks but it totally makes sense it's not worth investing in a platform that is in its last major refresh and sells 3 or 4 thousand units a month. I'll be waiting for the GE2 coup in '29 or '30 or maybe I will break down and get a Mach E before then. I consider myself a Mustang guy having driven one as a daily driver since '03 even in Wisconsin winters. But I am also a tech guy and was hoping for the hybrid AWD out of the current platform. Oh well.

Nice car! I had an '04 GT for 12 years and will always have a soft spot for the SN95 New Edge cars (99 to 04). Yes the newer incarnations are better but for late 90s engineering it was an nice car for the money.

Seems like a lot lot of fuss for a car that sells 3 to 4 thousand units a month doesn't it? Wonder how many i this thread will be buying an S650 or the generation after that. I know I will trade my '20 once new power train options come along. Looks probably won't be huge factor in my decision.

The changes are subtle enough between the 15 and 18 that a non Mustang / Ford fan boy would not really notice. My BMW / VW fan boy co workers are amazed when I can call out the year of Mustang on the street just by looking at the front or back end. That is the point of first post I made in this thread. If the changes are only front and back facia, even moderately dramatic, it won't be big deal to most of people. As I said a new grill and head / tail lights, "meh". New power trains like AWD and hybrid options for the ecoboost? Now you will have the attention of some people who have not considering buying a Mustang recently. The V8 hybrid is not so exciting as it really does not address MPG and is more about performance aspects of adding electric drive to front wheels making it a 50K plus car. I would rather have an ecoboost hybrid starting under 40K.

Meh, "will launch with carryover engines...won’t look radically different" plus hybrid and AWD not options but possible in future years? AWD and Hybrid are the things I am waiting for to trade my 2020. Updated interior sounds cool as long as its not just on the premium trim level. But not enough to make me trade for the same power train I have now in a slightly different sheet metal and new display screens. Maybe by 26 or 27 they will have the new power train options.

The job losses are inevitable as BEV are inherently less complex, less parts mainly, than ICE. This is better for the BEV owner in hopefully less maintenance, but less jobs in manufacturing and maybe less cash for dealer service departments, which I hate anyway. This is normal in any technology transition. The internet killed newspapers. Smart phones killed land lines and arguably desktop and even laptop computer sales. Streaming is killing cable tv channels. iTunes and Spotify are killing local radio. (Yes we need to look at cars more and more like other high tech items and not as basic appliances.) I understand some may disagree with how Ford is handling this, but in the big global picture this technology transition will shift or eliminate jobs. Maybe more that it creates. That is just technology and free markets. If Ford doesn't do it, the Chinese, Koreans and Europeans will flood the market with BEVs world wide regardless of what Ford or the US market does. This is a transition between now and 2035 or 2040. There will be ICE trucks for those who need them for sure. But lets not dismiss these 'Version 1.0" BEV pickups as we need them and need people to buy them if we are ever going to get to BEV pickups that can tow 300 miles and charge and 15 minutes. It may not be until 2035 but we have to start somewhere. For the large minority or is it a majority of suburban truck owners who rarely tow anything this limited tow range of the EV will not matter. I know far too many coworkers, family members, neighbors who own V8 pickups and don't own boats or campers or trailers. These trucks spend 90% of their lives driving to either the office or grocery store with one or two occupants and nothing in the bed or attached to the ball. Batteries will improve in the next 10 years. So will charging and other technologies. Its seems like things are being pushed too fast, but I think you will still be able to get ICE pickups for a long time for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. Let the people who want buy BEVs buy them to finance and create the demand for improvements in charging and batteries. So far every Lightning and Mach E built is sold instantly. So BEV supply is no were near meeting demand yet. Also the power grid will transition to add more capacity, and more green power eventually. It will take time. But its a chicken and egg thing. They will be happy to take the money you used to spend on gas and put it on your electric bill. But they won't build capacity until the demand is there. And yes the BEVs will run on some coal and mostly natural gas electricity at first. But in almost all locations that will still be net cleaner than burning gas in every vehicle. Give the utilities 10 or 20 years to evolve and government regulators to figure this out too. People need to chill. Everything in life is not a war unless people make it that way on both sides...which seems to be all the rage now a days. Am I completely right if everything I said taken literally? No, but I don't want to get into arguments about politics, technology, market phycology, of the moment. That's not the point. The point is the big long term picture of what I am saying is true. In the long run the market will get there. It will be painful for some. Jobs will be shifted or lost. Maybe Ford can do better managing the transition with respect to its employees. But the transition will come over the next 20 years regardless of how Ford or the United States as a whole handles it.

I had a 2013 Titanium 2.0 Turbo. I loved it. Didn't want to trade it but did on 2.3 Turbo Mustang in 2020 after 78K miles. No major issues though lots of recalls since it was a '13 (first year for that generation).

To a non Ford fan or non car enthusiast the changes are a little to subtle to really notice much difference from the current Escape. As the owner of a 21 Titanium hybrid I am fine with the looks of the current and the new Escape, but was gonna buy a Ford more likely than not matter what it looked like. I am pretty happy with my hybrid as a daily driver it is quite nice. Also had an Escape SE as a rental a few week ago on vacation and was quite happy with that vehicle also. The Escape has grown on me. I understand sales are disappointing and better looks might help in this competitive segment. Agreed they should have went for bolder changes. But maybe it was not meant to be. Not in the budget for something that is rumored to be going away eventually anyway. In other words, yes maybe Ford never meant to try that hard with this refresh in the first place since they are focused elsewhere. Just my thoughts. Still love my Escape.

Lets see the sales numbers for Q2, 3 and 4 to see if you theory people only want a V8 holds out. I have the 2.3 Eco boost and it is way more powerful than my old 4.6 GT SN95. Most car buyers don't want or need todays 5.0 with 460 or more HP and 16 MPG in the city if its summer (worse in winter). I predict the market for the 5.0 and the hemi and what ever chevy is pushing will just continue to shrink except for a few well off hobbyist buys who can afford to have a 50K toy sitting in the garage. Most cars sold in Europe are tiny displacement. they sell just fine including sports cars. Big displacement is a small and shrinking niche.

If they offer an eco boost 4 cylinder hybrid at a competitive price, I will be seriously considering trading my 20 eco-boot Mustang that's for sure. AWD would also be nice for those of us living in the snow belt at least on the 4 cylinder models. Unless gas go back to $3.00 a gallon by then, I think a hybrid on the LOWER trim levels would be a big seller. I don't see that a hybrid V8 or V6 improves MPG that much compared to just going with the 4 banger turbo and less and less sales will be 460 HP monsters with the current price of gas. 300 to 350 HP is the sweet spot for fun vs cost vs MPG in my opinion.

Most people under 40 will go for the online buying experience most of the time. Even many between 40 and 60 know to search new / used inventory online and then go to the dealership already interested in a specific vehicle that is supposedly in stock. I have to agree 99% of the time I know more about the car I want than the sales person does. Also I hate negotiating a price when I just want the out the door price and then an offer for my trade, while they just want to keep playing the monthly payment shell game where they don't want to tell you the length or interest rate of the loan or the new car / trade value in the contract until you are ready to sign to a specific monthly payment. Finally I dread the sales pitch for the extended warranty options none of which do I want, but the poor finance person is rewarded / punished based on how much extended warranty they sell. Also I always finance through my credit union, dealer options are rarely better and often worse if you read the fine print. Like if my payment is 500 and I send 1000 this month, my credit union says, hey buddy your paid up for two months next payment due in August or you can send more in July and pay it down farther, or not its up to you!. Ford says that nice you sent extra, you still need to pay the regular payment in July. No one talks about these things but they matter! Overall its a horrible experience. These people have the state legislatures in their pocket with campaign donations that is the only reason the current system still exists. I have never been to a Tesla show room but why can't I go test drive a model / trim I am interested in and ask question and then go home an order when I have done same with competition? Extended warranty would be check box on the web order form like apple care for iPhone or iPad. I refinanced my house during the pandemic all from my living room with my little local credit union. Why can't I buy a car this way too? Carvana will drop off a car to me and pick up my trade. Its 2022 I am sick of car dealers operating like its 1978! Old people can have their kids help them. I help my elderly father with his last vehicle purchase. How does Telsa warranty service work? This is where a Ford show room / service center will still be needed perhaps. Maybe they have to send someone to pick up the car / drop off a loaner. But I hate many dealer service centers also as I go in for a recall and they tell me I need other non warranty repairs that my local NAPA mechanic tells me the next week I don't need yet or at all. As soon as the 3/36000 is up the my cars usually never see the dealership service center again. The NAPA guy might have to work a little harder to fix the more complex problems, but he never tries to sell me what I don't need and is generally 25 to 33% or more less than dealerships. OK. I am done venting. I say losing the dealers to Ford owned show rooms and service centers is the lesser of two evils.

If an ecoboost hybrid wiht a decent price (<$40K) is announced, I will consider trading my '20 ecoboost 101A package. I started with an '04 GT Premium 4.6L and the S550 ecoboost easily bested that in HP and torque, handling etc. Hopefully same case for the S650 when the hybrid comes out. I don't need a V8 with the performance of the ecoboost and hopefully future PHEV progressing as it has.. I would be a buyer for a pure BEV now if it was not for the initial cost. V8s were fun and I love the sound, but they are really becoming more hobby vehicles rather then daily drivers. I don't need 460 HP for my daily driver 300+ is enough. I drive my Mustang 365 days a year even in Wisconsin snow storms thanks to awesome snow tires on the market. Of course I would also consider AWD Mustang Coupe depending on cost. I think there is definitely a market for Mustang hybrid in the USA, not just over seas.

It looks like Rivian's future is questionable. Other large investors are bailing also. This seems mostly unrelated to overall market trends and more related to Rivian finally admitting real numbers for forecast deliveries and revenue this year.

that is subjective opinion. I owned a new 2004 GT and loved it and got many compliments on it after the 2015s came out. BTW I own a 2020 now and like the looks of it as well. I think whatever they do is long is it looks halfway decent it will sell since there won't really be any competition left then.

some people will aways be afraid of change. but change still comes. those who can adapt own the future. in 20 years this argument will be moot.

I believe some of the advanced features like lane centering can be disabled deep in the settings on the center screen. You should check it out. I have an escape with features mentioned in this thread and have gotten used the them after a few months. I believe they keep me safer and so does my insurance company as my rate went down compared to my old escape that didn't have such features. but to each his own if you want to try turn them off.

Do they offer tours of flat rock plant? I always wanted to see where my Mustangs were made. I know, I guess my older one came for the Rouge plant. Some day I want to drive to Detroit area just for fun. Been there for work many times back in the day...

This is mostly to make the investors happy. They see insane valuations of pure EV companies and want in on the action. Hopefully it will have benefits internally for Ford as well. But it is driven by Wall Street. Ford had to do something to please the investors. Hopefully the plan they have come up with actually benefits Ford products, customers and employees as well. It is what it is. We just have to trust Farley to get it right. But as to the initial decision I don't think he had any other choice as a publicly traded company.

So this is a site to discuss politics and power generation policy now and not just Ford products? The libs are shoving it down our throat. The energy companies and their conservative allies are blocking and sabotaging us. Which is it? That discussion does not belong here. I guess if this is where the world is headed Ford better try to lead rather than follow and I am interested in Mach E and F150 Lightning, Maverick and other electrification projects that are ongoing. Because I think the technology is cool. Because I know a battery and motor a lot easier to maintain than an ICE engine and the hundreds of bolt-ons that come with it. Its not about rules , regulations, policy or who really won the last election. Aren't there plenty of other sites to discuss politics? The world has too much of that already. Technology is headed toward electrification. Space X is cleaning Boeing's clock and Tesla will do the same to Ford if they don't act. Don't under estimate Elon Musk and those who aspire to compete with him in America and around the world. They are the Henry Fords and Dodge brothers of today. Politics has nothing to do with the final outcome of this story. Its can speed or slow the transition but not change the final outcome. People think it is so important who is elected to various offices but in the long view maybe business has more influence on the future than politicians. Ford should do what ever it has to to thrive. That means investing in BEVs right now. If the transition is slower as you say Ford has plenty of know how to keep cranking out ICE vehicles. But reality is Tesla and now Rivian are both valued at more than Ford. From a business point of view Ford must take notice. That valuation comes from powerful fund managers and banks pumping up the values, not tree hugging eco terrorists. Again business and wall street are determining the future. Not politicians. And if the demand is there and there is money to be made some smart businessmen will figure out the issues with the power grid and power generation also. There are tons of green and nuclear FUSION starts ups out there today. Don't underestimate where they will be in 10 or 15 years.

Is every one on every Ford GM or Mopar enthusiast site against BEVs? Seems so sometimes. I think by 2035 most of the problems you complain about with EVs will be solved. Heck that's 12 model years yet. Where was Tesla 12 years ago? How far have they come? The world of the future is going to be electrified not gas powered. The old Detroit three can be a part of it or be out of business after 2040. Kinda like refusing see your horse drawn carriage business is going to become irrelevant in back in 1908 when the Model T came out. Fpd sold 10,000 vehicles in 1909. Buy 1922 it was 1.3 million per year with almost as many sold by competitors that year. I am not young, but I am not stuck in the past either. Battery powered mowers and snow blowers finally became cost competitive last year or two. I love my battery mower and can't wait to try out my battery snow blower this winter. I owned lots of V8s the last 30 years but love my new Eco-boost and just purchased a hybrid vehicle as well. They just made more sense than a V8 this last time around. I would have got a Mach E if not for the price, but when I go looking for new vehicles again towards the end of the 2020's I am sure it will be a BEV. BEVs will become competitive. The charging and range problems will be solved. Tesla, Rivan and similar startups, or the Chinese and other Asian countries will solve the problems if Detroit doesn't. Don't worry if you want an ICE vehicle I am sure there will be new ones for you to purchase until at least 2035 more likely 2045 or 2050. It will be a transition. It always takes longer than they say. We will have both ICE and BEV for a least the next two decades. Calm down. People get so angry and it gets personal. It makes some of us not want to bother with these forums anymore at all.

Its not a Ford problem. Its the whole idea of dealerships. I have bought and helped friends and family buy many new and pre owned vehicles over the years. First off I usually know more about the vehicle than the sales person does. I know what trim and option package I want. They don't get if they try to steer me to something slightly different I would not get the feature that was important to me or I will be paying for a bunch of stuff I didn't want to pay for. And in general I will know that this or that was new for this year or was new for 2019 which is why I don't want to look at a 18 but again I know more than they do. Shouldn't they be reading more car forums online than I do? That said the next annoyance is the finance office. I have financing through the local credit union which does have relationships with most local dealerships of all makes. I already know the loan term and how many thousand I will put down. They focus incessantly on monthly payment. All I care about is the final price. I will adjust my down payment to get the monthly number I want. They are so used to people buying based on monthly payment they seem incapable of dealing with a guy like me who has 30 or 40% down and just wants the best out the door price. Then there is the high pressure extended warranty pitch. Even after saying no several times they keep explaining the benefits of all the extended warranty options. In the end they give up but are visibly unhappy. One guy told me he was required to sell one to every customer who sat in his office or it would reflect on his performance review. Finally the trade. I am tired of trading a vehicle and seeing it on the lot the next week for several thousand more than they payed me. The bottom line is a 29K car ends up costing you 35K or more out the door with the $2700 extended warranty and 7 year 5% financing they try to push on you. This hurts the people who can least afford it the most. Finally , finally is service. Especially after the 3 year bumper to bumper expires. They try to sell me things I don't need or didn't ask for. More than once I have had vehicle into dealer for a recall and told other repairs were needed. When I took the paperwork to my NAPA mechanic he checked it out and said it would be waste to do the work at this time or there was nothing wrong at all. After the3 years is up my cars never see the dealership again except for recalls. I have had this experience with Ford, Dodge, Toyota etc. Note many of these dealerships are owned by the same family anyway. Joe Smoe's Ford is across town from Joe Smoe Toyota and in the next town over there is a Joe Smoe Chevrolet and Joe Smoe Honda etc. So its the same people often running things no matter what make your looking at. Dealers make little to no money on the car itself. So they have to make it up on extended warranties and service. This just inflates the final cost of the car and leaves people with a bad taste in their mouth. Dealerships should be done away with IMHO. Agree or disagree with me I would like to hear your thoughts.

Despite some of the valid complaints in this thread this product certainly looks like a winner! It's only the first year and this little truck can only get better. If this had a bow tie or an Asian badge on the front of it everybody would be saying why can't Ford be innovative like that? Kudos to everyone at Ford involved in making this product reality.