Tico

Completely not true! There is certainly overlap! I have own a V8 and Ecoboost Mustang and am totally considering a Mach E in few years to replace my ICE Mustang. Many tech workers are also sports car buyers. These are guys and gals who have been buying sports cars for decades but since they are working in high tech they also are attracted to BEVs. There are more than a few tech workers out there with money to buy new cars. They might buy a Corvette or a Tesla depending on many factors. Or in their dreams, both! So don't say there is no overlap. Spoken from experience and a large network of colleages in this industry.

I think for older (over 70) people that are still walking, a crossover is easitest to get in and out of. Most sedans are too low, speicially to get out of. "Real" SUVs are too high. Crossovers are the sweet spot. For people in a wheel chair, my Mustang does seem to be better than my Escape speaking from experience with an elderly family member. So it depends on the person. But overall the crossover seems better for most Seniors. As for electric "crap" the reason for slowing sales I think is the cost pemium to go electric. Between the much higher vehile cost (compare Escape to Mach E) and the cost of installing charger in the garage its out of reach or just doesn't make finance sense for the average car buyer. Electrics are still premium vehicles for luxury car buyers. Noteable exeption is the Volt. If there were decent electric vehicles around 35K on the market sales would be much higher. This is why Ford is talking about building more hybrids I am assuming. Again maybe a "sweet spot" right now. I am quite happy with my Escape Hybrid. The electric transition is just going to take time. 10 years or more before BEV sales surpass ICE. With new lithum sources and solid state batteries and other new tech on the horizon and volumes slowing increase we will get there. Just might be 2035 by the time BEVs are truely price competitive with ICE. Don't forget the chinese are starting to sell BEVs in Europe and the Austrialia. This will drive prices down also. I don't think bringing back a fusion or tauras sedan in the US would be smart business for Ford. Even Toyota and Honda sell more crossovers than sedans now.

Most of the posts in this thread are antidotal rather than dealing with facts. To the people who did try to post actual listening numbers, thank you. Although I didn't check your sources. As far as Ford's decision or future government policy, it should come down to two things. What percentage of people are listening to AM radio daily or weekly, and geographically what percentage of roads in America are not covered by 4G cellular or FM radio? This would give you a good idea how important AM radio is for emergency broadcasts. I would love to see those numbers from objective sources. This is definitely more an issue for rural areas and older listeners. But hard numbers would make arguments and decisions much more clear. I suspect as time goes by AM will become less and less important. It would seem the incentive to eliminate it is interference from EV electric motors which are much bigger than electric motors in ice cars. I assume there's cost involved in shielding those motors so they don't interfere with the AM receiver. Ultimately this is about dollars and not anything else. At some point the cost won't make sense anymore to please a smaller and smaller percentage of customers who either prefer listening to AM radio or have no other coverage on some of the roads they drive.

So anyone have the list of new vehicles for sale under $30K?

I had to google what an RS200 was. Most guy buyers are too young to even remember this. I agree Ford could better use whatever resrources towards mass market products. This is the smallest of niche markets. Even for people who might see it race, what product in the showroom is it going to motivate them to buy?

I agree its mostly people are bad with money. So are many corporations, governments and billionaires. (Yes Elon borrowed some of the money to buy twitter on not such good terms.) When things get tough people those at the edge of their means will always be the first to be hurt. Its not how much you make its how much you keep. I always try to buy a less car, house, etc than I could afford according to the bank, credit union etc. Since my payment is less than I could actually afford given my monthly cashflow I can afford to pay more than minimums most months and pay things off relatively quickly. But I know that one I am in the minority that I can afford to do that, and two many will spend right up to their limit no matter how much they make. Finally yes three many make just enough to get a loan for something basic and then are screwed if anything goes wrong. Prices have been out of crazy the last few years, new and used vehicles. The bubble has to pop sooner or later you would think. I thought I read somewhere repos were increasing already this fall.

I don't know if its 2013 yet. Maybe more like 2010. The LED TVs are there but way more expensive than plasmas. Small ICE crossovers and hybrids will still be the majority of the market for several years. I don't see the sales graphs crossing until late in this decade. RAV4? CRV? Not even Tesla has caught these models yet have they?

Maybe this was due to limited production of Mustang coups, but Mach E outsold ICE Mustangs in November.

I think all legacy automakers are jealous of Tesla not having to work with dealer franchises. The only reason dealers exist is because they have state law makers in there back pocket so no one get the antiquated laws governing car sales repealed. Between the dealer markups and over priced service rates and high pressure extended warranty and add on sales tactics I have no love for the current system. Sure eliminating the dealerships would cost jobs but those cars would get serviced at manufacturer service centers or somewhere else and those places would need people. Sales and finance people would get absorbed into other retail verticals. Its the franchise owners that would lose their high incomes and political power. Sorry rant done, but really I think in 10 or 20 years new car dealers will be a thing of the past or look very different than today. What Ford is doing is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. As more and more new EV companies with no dealers begin to sell in volume the legacy companies will see the dealers as a bigger and bigger net competitive disadvantage rather than a plus.

Ford my be a little bit ahead of the curve here but AM won't exist in 20 year almost for sure. Most people under 35 don't even listen to FM radio. When my 20 something kids in get in the car they immediately start listening to their down loaded playlist on there phone. Listener numbers have been dropping even for FM stations. AM is pretty much been left to sports and political talk radio. And people under 35 go online for those things too. You can down load a play list or podcast for the car or tractor. You should be using Waze for traffic during your commute. Plus many AM sports and political talk show have moved to FM or simulcast on both bands. I know farmers under 40 and the same is true for them, they don't list to over the air radio much in the tractor. Some of the bigger tractors are getting pretty nice inside and blue tooth and satellite and big screens are invading there too. Its a demographic thing and Maverick is aimed at a younger buyer looking for value (code word for less than $35K please!) and a "coolness" factor. AM radio just makes it look cheap and not cool. I see no problem with this. The world is changing. 2030 will look very different from 2020. Keep the AM in the expensive high end vehicles and trims that older people are buying. But in the long run AM and even FM radio will go the same way as cassettes and CDs.

You and your friend represent a small percentage of the 3500 to 5500 mustangs sold each month. The average buyer is in their 50s. In end the market is just not big enough to justify investing in this platform. And there is a good chance it will get smaller as the muscle car market has been for decades now.

I never thought about the muscle care market dying completely. But the average age of buyer is getting quite high compared to other segments I bet. It remains to be seen in 2035 if anyone in their 30s or 40s wants a two door coup any longer. Hell they barely sell 10,000 a month now combined! Most of the younger (under 40) car guy people I know are into hot hatches and compact imports (think Focus S/T) not Mustangs and Challengers. Any BEV crossover will be able to come out with a "sport" trim level that matches muscle car performance if there is a market. So why buy a two door thing with trunk? That may sound sacrilegious to boomers and gen x, but millennials and gen z will be driving the market buy 2035. Hot small crossover BEV = evolution of the hot hatch market? Software updates are right up the alley of 20 somethings who are building there own gaming computers and jail breaking there phones today and flying drones. There will always be performance versions of some vehicles sold. What shape they will take is good question. Again it sure would be nice if they used the same names as the performance ICE legends once they are gone. Original point of muscle cars was lots of horse power per dollar spent. As long as that carries forward why not. There will be a BEV Mustang coup as long as enough people are willing to buy them. For myself if the 2030 Mach E Crossover and Mach E coupe are the same car with different body, why wouldn't I take the hatch and have a little more utility?

Sucks but it totally makes sense it's not worth investing in a platform that is in its last major refresh and sells 3 or 4 thousand units a month. I'll be waiting for the GE2 coup in '29 or '30 or maybe I will break down and get a Mach E before then. I consider myself a Mustang guy having driven one as a daily driver since '03 even in Wisconsin winters. But I am also a tech guy and was hoping for the hybrid AWD out of the current platform. Oh well.

Nice car! I had an '04 GT for 12 years and will always have a soft spot for the SN95 New Edge cars (99 to 04). Yes the newer incarnations are better but for late 90s engineering it was an nice car for the money.

Seems like a lot lot of fuss for a car that sells 3 to 4 thousand units a month doesn't it? Wonder how many i this thread will be buying an S650 or the generation after that. I know I will trade my '20 once new power train options come along. Looks probably won't be huge factor in my decision.

The changes are subtle enough between the 15 and 18 that a non Mustang / Ford fan boy would not really notice. My BMW / VW fan boy co workers are amazed when I can call out the year of Mustang on the street just by looking at the front or back end. That is the point of first post I made in this thread. If the changes are only front and back facia, even moderately dramatic, it won't be big deal to most of people. As I said a new grill and head / tail lights, "meh". New power trains like AWD and hybrid options for the ecoboost? Now you will have the attention of some people who have not considering buying a Mustang recently. The V8 hybrid is not so exciting as it really does not address MPG and is more about performance aspects of adding electric drive to front wheels making it a 50K plus car. I would rather have an ecoboost hybrid starting under 40K.

Meh, "will launch with carryover engines...won’t look radically different" plus hybrid and AWD not options but possible in future years? AWD and Hybrid are the things I am waiting for to trade my 2020. Updated interior sounds cool as long as its not just on the premium trim level. But not enough to make me trade for the same power train I have now in a slightly different sheet metal and new display screens. Maybe by 26 or 27 they will have the new power train options.

The job losses are inevitable as BEV are inherently less complex, less parts mainly, than ICE. This is better for the BEV owner in hopefully less maintenance, but less jobs in manufacturing and maybe less cash for dealer service departments, which I hate anyway. This is normal in any technology transition. The internet killed newspapers. Smart phones killed land lines and arguably desktop and even laptop computer sales. Streaming is killing cable tv channels. iTunes and Spotify are killing local radio. (Yes we need to look at cars more and more like other high tech items and not as basic appliances.) I understand some may disagree with how Ford is handling this, but in the big global picture this technology transition will shift or eliminate jobs. Maybe more that it creates. That is just technology and free markets. If Ford doesn't do it, the Chinese, Koreans and Europeans will flood the market with BEVs world wide regardless of what Ford or the US market does. This is a transition between now and 2035 or 2040. There will be ICE trucks for those who need them for sure. But lets not dismiss these 'Version 1.0" BEV pickups as we need them and need people to buy them if we are ever going to get to BEV pickups that can tow 300 miles and charge and 15 minutes. It may not be until 2035 but we have to start somewhere. For the large minority or is it a majority of suburban truck owners who rarely tow anything this limited tow range of the EV will not matter. I know far too many coworkers, family members, neighbors who own V8 pickups and don't own boats or campers or trailers. These trucks spend 90% of their lives driving to either the office or grocery store with one or two occupants and nothing in the bed or attached to the ball. Batteries will improve in the next 10 years. So will charging and other technologies. Its seems like things are being pushed too fast, but I think you will still be able to get ICE pickups for a long time for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. Let the people who want buy BEVs buy them to finance and create the demand for improvements in charging and batteries. So far every Lightning and Mach E built is sold instantly. So BEV supply is no were near meeting demand yet. Also the power grid will transition to add more capacity, and more green power eventually. It will take time. But its a chicken and egg thing. They will be happy to take the money you used to spend on gas and put it on your electric bill. But they won't build capacity until the demand is there. And yes the BEVs will run on some coal and mostly natural gas electricity at first. But in almost all locations that will still be net cleaner than burning gas in every vehicle. Give the utilities 10 or 20 years to evolve and government regulators to figure this out too. People need to chill. Everything in life is not a war unless people make it that way on both sides...which seems to be all the rage now a days. Am I completely right if everything I said taken literally? No, but I don't want to get into arguments about politics, technology, market phycology, of the moment. That's not the point. The point is the big long term picture of what I am saying is true. In the long run the market will get there. It will be painful for some. Jobs will be shifted or lost. Maybe Ford can do better managing the transition with respect to its employees. But the transition will come over the next 20 years regardless of how Ford or the United States as a whole handles it.

I had a 2013 Titanium 2.0 Turbo. I loved it. Didn't want to trade it but did on 2.3 Turbo Mustang in 2020 after 78K miles. No major issues though lots of recalls since it was a '13 (first year for that generation).

To a non Ford fan or non car enthusiast the changes are a little to subtle to really notice much difference from the current Escape. As the owner of a 21 Titanium hybrid I am fine with the looks of the current and the new Escape, but was gonna buy a Ford more likely than not matter what it looked like. I am pretty happy with my hybrid as a daily driver it is quite nice. Also had an Escape SE as a rental a few week ago on vacation and was quite happy with that vehicle also. The Escape has grown on me. I understand sales are disappointing and better looks might help in this competitive segment. Agreed they should have went for bolder changes. But maybe it was not meant to be. Not in the budget for something that is rumored to be going away eventually anyway. In other words, yes maybe Ford never meant to try that hard with this refresh in the first place since they are focused elsewhere. Just my thoughts. Still love my Escape.

Lets see the sales numbers for Q2, 3 and 4 to see if you theory people only want a V8 holds out. I have the 2.3 Eco boost and it is way more powerful than my old 4.6 GT SN95. Most car buyers don't want or need todays 5.0 with 460 or more HP and 16 MPG in the city if its summer (worse in winter). I predict the market for the 5.0 and the hemi and what ever chevy is pushing will just continue to shrink except for a few well off hobbyist buys who can afford to have a 50K toy sitting in the garage. Most cars sold in Europe are tiny displacement. they sell just fine including sports cars. Big displacement is a small and shrinking niche.

If they offer an eco boost 4 cylinder hybrid at a competitive price, I will be seriously considering trading my 20 eco-boot Mustang that's for sure. AWD would also be nice for those of us living in the snow belt at least on the 4 cylinder models. Unless gas go back to $3.00 a gallon by then, I think a hybrid on the LOWER trim levels would be a big seller. I don't see that a hybrid V8 or V6 improves MPG that much compared to just going with the 4 banger turbo and less and less sales will be 460 HP monsters with the current price of gas. 300 to 350 HP is the sweet spot for fun vs cost vs MPG in my opinion.

Most people under 40 will go for the online buying experience most of the time. Even many between 40 and 60 know to search new / used inventory online and then go to the dealership already interested in a specific vehicle that is supposedly in stock. I have to agree 99% of the time I know more about the car I want than the sales person does. Also I hate negotiating a price when I just want the out the door price and then an offer for my trade, while they just want to keep playing the monthly payment shell game where they don't want to tell you the length or interest rate of the loan or the new car / trade value in the contract until you are ready to sign to a specific monthly payment. Finally I dread the sales pitch for the extended warranty options none of which do I want, but the poor finance person is rewarded / punished based on how much extended warranty they sell. Also I always finance through my credit union, dealer options are rarely better and often worse if you read the fine print. Like if my payment is 500 and I send 1000 this month, my credit union says, hey buddy your paid up for two months next payment due in August or you can send more in July and pay it down farther, or not its up to you!. Ford says that nice you sent extra, you still need to pay the regular payment in July. No one talks about these things but they matter! Overall its a horrible experience. These people have the state legislatures in their pocket with campaign donations that is the only reason the current system still exists. I have never been to a Tesla show room but why can't I go test drive a model / trim I am interested in and ask question and then go home an order when I have done same with competition? Extended warranty would be check box on the web order form like apple care for iPhone or iPad. I refinanced my house during the pandemic all from my living room with my little local credit union. Why can't I buy a car this way too? Carvana will drop off a car to me and pick up my trade. Its 2022 I am sick of car dealers operating like its 1978! Old people can have their kids help them. I help my elderly father with his last vehicle purchase. How does Telsa warranty service work? This is where a Ford show room / service center will still be needed perhaps. Maybe they have to send someone to pick up the car / drop off a loaner. But I hate many dealer service centers also as I go in for a recall and they tell me I need other non warranty repairs that my local NAPA mechanic tells me the next week I don't need yet or at all. As soon as the 3/36000 is up the my cars usually never see the dealership service center again. The NAPA guy might have to work a little harder to fix the more complex problems, but he never tries to sell me what I don't need and is generally 25 to 33% or more less than dealerships. OK. I am done venting. I say losing the dealers to Ford owned show rooms and service centers is the lesser of two evils.

If an ecoboost hybrid wiht a decent price (<$40K) is announced, I will consider trading my '20 ecoboost 101A package. I started with an '04 GT Premium 4.6L and the S550 ecoboost easily bested that in HP and torque, handling etc. Hopefully same case for the S650 when the hybrid comes out. I don't need a V8 with the performance of the ecoboost and hopefully future PHEV progressing as it has.. I would be a buyer for a pure BEV now if it was not for the initial cost. V8s were fun and I love the sound, but they are really becoming more hobby vehicles rather then daily drivers. I don't need 460 HP for my daily driver 300+ is enough. I drive my Mustang 365 days a year even in Wisconsin snow storms thanks to awesome snow tires on the market. Of course I would also consider AWD Mustang Coupe depending on cost. I think there is definitely a market for Mustang hybrid in the USA, not just over seas.

It looks like Rivian's future is questionable. Other large investors are bailing also. This seems mostly unrelated to overall market trends and more related to Rivian finally admitting real numbers for forecast deliveries and revenue this year.