Paul Selby Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 That is why Chrysler is in much better shape than Ford. Their lines are more flexible and their plants are more efficient. Where did you get this info from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenson88 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Where did you get this info from? His warped mind full of DCX bias, that's where. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 bb62: Regardless of where Ford is at in terms of being able to handle midsize volume cars, that is where they need to be. If their mfg. engineers can't do midsize, then they need to be replaced by people who can. I accept that Ford can't get to 20+% of the market any time soon. But I refuse to accept that Ford can't profitably build midsize volume product. They either will learn or they'll go belly-up. Ford used to keep 3 plants running profitably with three vehicles: the Windstar, Taurus and Sable. Now they need to keep 3 plants running profitably with 11. They don't have a choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb62 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 bb62: Regardless of where Ford is at in terms of being able to handle midsize volume cars, that is where they need to be. If their mfg. engineers can't do midsize, then they need to be replaced by people who can. I accept that Ford can't get to 20+% of the market any time soon. But I refuse to accept that Ford can't profitably build midsize volume product. They either will learn or they'll go belly-up. Ford used to keep 3 plants running profitably with three vehicles: the Windstar, Taurus and Sable. Now they need to keep 3 plants running profitably with 11. They don't have a choice. I agree with what you are saying, but from my experience, their culture won't allow them to make the necessary changes to allow for the lower volume production. I certainly hope that Ford can re-invent itself, but I'm not very optimistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I agree with what you are saying, but from my experience, their culture won't allow them to make the necessary changes to allow for the lower volume production. I certainly hope that Ford can re-invent itself, but I'm not very optimistic. Most of us hope Mulally can change the culture and infuse some rational thought in its place. The advantage he has as an outsider is that he didn't come up in that warped culture. He actually has something to use as a benchmark. I believe it can be done. I don't think he would take the job and stay in it to preside over the end of Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 And low resale from dumping 10 year old plus designed cars into Hertz fleets to 'cook the #'s" is not a viable company either. Look at all the unsold used rental Tauruses, rusting away. People will get a same year Camry for more $$, and still get better resale. I think the whiners who miss the old fleet sales #'s, and actaully think selling cars for pennies of profit, should get real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 their culture won't allow them to make the necessary changes At this point in time, they don't have the luxury of inertia. It's not an option. I'm sure that Mulally and Fields have drummed that into everybody's head. Also, FoE has already started down this road, so Ford should have some talent on board that can do for Ford NA what they did with FoE (multiple C1 & EUCD products from single facilities). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Pioneer: Do you know what the law of large numbers is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcon lover Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 The Crown Victoria is selling better than the Five Hundred! 4:1 !!!!!!!!!! And the Crown Vic have 28 years old Panther platform ( the 1979 LTD-Marquis) .Come on Ford , kill the Five Hundred-Motego and build the Interceptor NOW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 QUOTE(Bluecon @ Feb 1 2007, 10:02 PM) Pioneer is obviously an intelligent electrician who cares much about his job and is frustrated at the weak management that is burying the company. I see no bad attitude with the guy. This is the type of worker you need to save this company. Give him the chance and this company will be on the road back. At least somebody understands me. So Ford needs more people who tell other people they don't give a shit if you buy their product? :huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 His warped mind full of DCX bias, that's where. Well of course they are doing better than Ford they posted gains, duh! Nevermind the fact that those gains can only be attributed to Jeep not Chrysler or Dodge brands. Don't even get me started on that companies subpar product offering with slipshod build and materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 Well of course they are doing better than Ford they posted gains, duh! Nevermind the fact that those gains can only be attributed to Jeep not Chrysler or Dodge brands. Don't even get me started on that companies subpar product offering with slipshod build and materials. Well there new products within Dodge are selling very well also. Not to mention the avenger just launched so dodge was in the whole this month from almost 9 thousands from the stratus alone (last year stratus sold 10k+ in January avenger just launched so it only sold 1k+) Also to the people who lack reading ability that have bashed Chrysler saying "Oooh look it is all fleet" Let's look at this: "January sales results were driven by solid retail sales, while fleet sales were down." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted February 2, 2007 Author Share Posted February 2, 2007 Yeah. 130k Fusions, 130k Edges, 100k Five Hundreds, 75k Freestyles, 30k Milans, 30k MKZs, 20k Montegos, 30k MKSes, 30k MKXs INSTEAD OF 300k Tauruses, 50k Sables, 30k Continentals, and 100k Windstars, all to fleets. That 500 number will probably be 5ok same with the freestyle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sranger Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 (edited) Well, to be honest the numbers were not as bad as I thought they would be. Ford has the right idea about lowering fleet sales. Ford has to get their re-sale values up to help attract new buyers. The company I work for has about 30 people who buy a new car every 2-4 years so that you qualify for a monthly auto allowance. The #1 complaint I hear about Ford is the low re-sale value. People, like myself, will buy them if they can get a heavy discount to help offset the low re-sale value when it comes time to trade. I would have never bought my Mariner if it had not had been offered at 6K below MSRP. The only number that really shocked me was the 500 sales. I though the new 3.5L would have at least helped it do better than losing 50% of it’s sales. I did not think the 500 was a rental queen? It looks like Ford did a reasonable job of dumping the short run 2007 Escapes/Mariners. However, I doubt the 2008 will fair well due to being the bottom feeder in terms of performance in a very competitive class. However, women do buy these things and they are less likely to do comparison shopping. With the right discounts, Ford might keep this one alive long enough to do a proper redesign and not just a face lift… It is funny to the see the old crown vic out sell the new 500, but I suspect that many of the vic sales were to police and fire departments. The new Camry is obviously going to eat into all other manufactures mid size car line up. I drove one with the new V6 and it really can do 0-60 is 6 sec… It was actually fun to drive, and I HATE FWD cars. Ford need to study this one and actually learn a few things… I am not sure that the Mustang is doing that well. I see a lot of GTs on the dealers lots around here with significant cash on the hoods ( at least from the dealers ). However, the specialty models seem to be moving well. A local tuner is modifying some and selling them through the local dealers. These modified GTs models are selling well in the 37K range. Ford really needs to pay attention to this fact… The Edge/MKX was a bright spot. I was impressed that they did so well considering how bad the reviews were for these vehicles. Selling 5K vehicles in the first month that are known to have questionable braking is good news indeed. Keep in mind, this was after a two month delay. Imagine how many they would have sold if they had got good reviews. Ford has a true stand out winner here if they will fix the brakes, add a manual shifter and tighten up the suspension. Basically offer a sporty edition. Heck, I would buy one if they would fix the brakes. I agree that March will be the key month for this vehicle. The new Hylander is going to be unveiled on Feb 7th. It will ride on the Avalon platform and carry the 269hp V6. It might steal the Edge’s thunder… I also agree that the ONLY way to save Lincoln is to offer something more that a tarted up Ford. A move to RWD for Lincoln would be a good idea. It is time for Ford to realize that your halo brand has to perform better to be a success… I also found this article with some interesting points. This sentence was a little troubling. "Edmunds.com said on Thursday that GM's incentives were down 17 per cent year on year and Chrysler's fell by 8 per cent, while Ford increased its incentives spending by 20 per cent." http://biz.yahoo.com/ft/070201/fto02012007...43161.html?.v=1 Edited February 2, 2007 by sranger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Well there new products within Dodge are selling very well also. Not to mention the avenger just launched so dodge was in the whole this month from almost 9 thousands from the stratus alone (last year stratus sold 10k+ in January avenger just launched so it only sold 1k+) Point taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 ...who wants to buy a car this time of the year in the northern part of the country with snow and getting it dirty and beat up from sand/salt? I guess that explains why toyota is up almost 10%....it must of been sunny on that side of the street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Well there new products within Dodge are selling very well also. Not to mention the avenger just launched so dodge was in the whole this month from almost 9 thousands from the stratus alone (last year stratus sold 10k+ in January avenger just launched so it only sold 1k+) Also to the people who lack reading ability that have bashed Chrysler saying "Oooh look it is all fleet" Let's look at this: "January sales results were driven by solid retail sales, while fleet sales were down." Yes fleet sales were down, but Chrysler didn't specify by how much. I doubt they were in the realm of GM's and Ford's cuts last month or they likely would have been more inclined to release a specific amount in the press release. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Yes fleet sales were down, but Chrysler didn't specify by how much. I doubt they were in the realm of GM's and Ford's cuts last month or they likely would have been more inclined to release a specific amount in the press release. Probably not but I don't think I can recall any of their press releases indicating percentages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Probably not but I don't think I can recall any of their press releases indicating percentages. Ford and GM never really mentioned percentages of fleet sales reductions either prior to January, simple because the drop was so staggering compared to their past "reductions" of 2-3%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecon Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 (edited) Whatever. It's just a message board and I am not going to take a scolding from someone who does not even own a Ford. Pretty hard to comment on the state of current Ford products if you don't drive one everyday. I am not 'scolding' you, just pointing out the facts. And for the record I do drive a Ford. And Mulally din't drive a Ford and he was hired to save the company. PS Just because you bought and drive a Ford doesn't mean you have any knowledge of FMC. Edited February 2, 2007 by Bluecon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecon Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 What exactly do you base this on? I don't know of any proof that Chrysler can build more types of vehicles on its lines than Ford or GM does. Chrysler isn't in such great shape itself. Benz is carrying the enterprise at this point. I know how much you enjoy bashing Ford for everything it does. Time will tell. At this point I think Ford is a better bet in the long run. Let us look at Ford Canada. Oakville is limping along trying to launch the Edge. (5000 sales in a month is 60k annual) St. Thomas is partially running. Essex Engine is producing a very small number of V6 engines. The Windsor Foundry likewise. The Windsor Annex plant is down about as much as it is running. Windsor Engine is down from 3 shifts to 2. The Essex Aluminum plant and Windsor Aluminum Plant are also partially running. It is like this throughout FMC. Chrysler has their problems also like I have told you many times before, when I predicted this many months ago Ford is in much worse shape and the 3rd and 4th quarter would prove this. (and they did) However things can change rapidly in this industry (remember when Ford management was making jokes about GM's situation not that long ago) and Mulally may be able to right the ship. If not they will be finished as the FMC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Yeah. It states that you will go out of business if you pay more per month in expenditures than you bring in revenue. No. The law of large numbers says that the larger a set of numbers are, the closer the mean of those numbers will come to their probable mean--that is to say (for instance), if you generate random numbers between 0 and 1, the larger the set of numbers, the closer the mean of all numbers will be to .5; an infinitely large set of random numbers between 0 and 1 has a mean of .5 Or, with a fairly balance die, all numbers will come up at the rate of 1:6, given a sufficiently large number of rolls. As it applies to the example at hand, the principle of the law of large numbers suggests that there is a greater risk associated with having one product which accounts for 10% of your volume, than there is with having 4 products that each deliver 2.5% of your volume. Now it's all fine and well to say, "Well Ford should just make a car that sells." But such thinking assumes that given the proper circumstances, success is a 'sure bet'. It is not, and never is. The more responsible course is to produce a number of models, intended for much smaller volume. It is not the way Ford has done things in the past, but then again, the way Ford did things in the past is very much connected with how they ended up where they are now. Further, if you check the numbers I posited for the D3s and CD3s with 2005 and 2006 sales totals, you'll see that I didn't stretch any projection too far. Ultimately, Ford Motor cannot sustain the course that you want, and it cannot manufacture demand for products in order to keep plants open. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiehaskell Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Fleets down and incentives up 24%. Ford's average incentive per vehicle is only a few hundred from DCX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluecon Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 Ford in the number four position for the first time since the model T. Thank you Bill jr. "Ford Motor Co. fell out of the top three in U.S. market share last month for what appears to be the first time since company founder Henry Ford rolled out the Model T." http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article.../702020336/1014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 "Ford in the number four position for the first time since the model T. Thank you Bill jr." Isn't it amazing how history repeats? I'm sure you remember the 6-month shutdown between the termination of the model T and the advent of the model A. Sales were in the dumper then, too, and the press had a field-day — IT'S THE END OF FORD!, blah, blah. Eighty years ago. Old product that can't cut it is being replaced by new product that can. Here, we critique the process. It has been a long way from perfect, so there are lumps in it. The optimists on BON believe the lumps are being dealt with, the pessimists do not. As David Byrne of Taliking Heads used to say, "Same as it ever was". In the US sedan market, Toyota is the new GM that ruled the roost in the 60's, and Ford is pretty much in the same position as when it had to contend with a gazillion Impalas and Cutlasses. Instead of fixating on Bill (it's done, already), try devoting more skull-time to figuring out how Ford gets there, from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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