Hugh Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 A thought...an expensive one, but a thought nonetheless. BUT, it could backfire. A free retrofit could be seen as the original vehicles being unsafe in Ford's eyes. It would be looked at as an "invisible recall" without the dirty word. Which may be even worse. Sure, we know the vehicles are not inherently dangerous, but not everybody looks that deep. Especially headline writers. True and if Ford used the 'Customer comes first' safety advocates/consumer groups etc. could use that as Ford trying to spin a potentially unsafe situation. Whether this is true or not, the perception in the public eye is now out there. I was thinking of this idea while my computer is downloading free upgrades. Wheter these are worth it or not I'll check later but it shows either MS cares or are covering up their shoddy work. See what I mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I think the definition of troll is a bit skewed. For a good explanation, see HERE Apparently you assume by my previous Chrysler post that I must be a troll. If stating an unpopular opinion makes someone a troll, then at one point or another I guess we are all trolls here. I've owned more Fords then most folks on this board. Though unlike many here, I don't have a blind loyalty to any one auto-maker and I also have a willingness to look at ALL sides of a situation, not just the rosy ones. I'll continue to support Ford.....as well as many other manufacturers. I've stated that since I joined this board 6 years ago and will continue to. Heck... at least unlike most, I've been consistent. I think my pro-Ford posts equal or outnumber my dissident posts regarding them. Now, back on topic: Regarding the running brake change, I think Ford is listening. They are learning that the customer is usually, if not always right. Paranoid much? My post was not even directed towards you. Grief........ And yes Ford is listening, look at the subpar crash scores of the Fusion in 06 compared to those of the 07 built after Jan. Not only did Ford offer up standard side impact protection, there as also an improvement to the door design. If the vehicle had ESP and adjustable rear head restraints it would receive top honors from IIHS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 (edited) Paranoid much? My post was not even directed towards you. Grief........ No, actually....but since I was the only person who posted an ostrich in a post regarding Chrysler, you could see the correlation. My bad! :rolleyes: So what were you referring to? ^^LMAO. Just add 'ostrich' and 'Chrysler' and you are all set to go. Edited February 20, 2007 by Intrepidatious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 No, actually....but since I was the only person who posted an ostrich in a post regarding Chrysler, you could see the correlation. My bad! :rolleyes: Hey no worries, and no it wasn't directed towards you. You always back up your statements with reason, something some of us around here have a hard time with. IM DONE RICHARD, IM DONE!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 It was the 'mad lib' post immediately above yours. He was adding some additional insults to the closer in Swizco's post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Hey no worries, and no it wasn't directed towards you. You always back up your statements with reason, something some of us around here have a hard time with. IM DONE RICHARD, IM DONE!!! Fair enough! Sorry for the call out. Now back to our regularly scheduled thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Its like ____ (Kyle / Bluecon / TheLemon / that guy why said the Edge would bomb) said: ___________ (The Edge stinks / The Fusion stinks / The Mustang stinks / Ford stinks / Everything stinks).-____ (Swizco) how the hell am I getting lumped in here with TheLemon:)))? Not a problem with bluecon on most days....other days we are pretty far apart! As for parapharasing me with regards to the above statements-sorry. I have no problem with those products-can they do better-hell yah. But I really like the edge-think it is their best product besides the mustang (cars). Do I have a problem with 150+ feet in stopping distances? Yah-and everyone else should. If it was horsepower, performance numbers not being equal with competitors I would be disappointed. But braking to me is a safety issue. 30+ feet is a hell of a distance-there is not a valid excuse out there, but rather a valuable lesson that I am sure ford is learning. glad to hear they are improving the brakes-not sure how you know-but will take your word for it. i just got back from a trip to s. florida (froze my ass off!!) and saw probably 30 edges along the way....great to see and the vehicle looks very good on the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 Future engines may be tuned for premium fuel and get the premium HP rating to grab some media attention like the Japanese do. The engines will run on regular as well. Knock sensors will be used and the EEC will recalibrate for regular. What does everyone think about a 320 HP 3.7 Cylcone for the F-150, normally aspirated? Or a 425 HP 3.5 Twin Force for the Mustang? Stop the whining and bitching, it's coming together. I could get behind those engine selections. The key is, Ford needs to build more of its GREAT engines (3V 4.6, 3.5L), and offer them in more of their cars. The Twin-Force would do much more good in a hi-po MKZ than it would in a Mustang. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizco Posted February 20, 2007 Author Share Posted February 20, 2007 how the hell am I getting lumped in here with TheLemon:)))? Not a problem with bluecon on most days....other days we are pretty far apart! glad to hear they are improving the brakes-not sure how you know-but will take your word for it. i just got back from a trip to s. florida (froze my ass off!!) and saw probably 30 edges along the way....great to see and the vehicle looks very good on the road. I sit next to the brake guy in the Plant Vehicle Team Office here at OAP. I overheard a conference call yesterday where they broke down the changes, knew this was a hot topic, and figured I'd pass along the news. As for lumping people together, its all in good fun. If anyone takes my MadLib post seriously, I'll be very disappointed. Swizco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 I sit next to the brake guy in the Plant Vehicle Team Office here at OAP. Swizco key word here is "sit next to the brake guy"....now wonder why they are in trouble!! I would be curious to learn how the braking situation came about in the first place. my thought is they had internal targets for weight and matched them up with brake specs....development time went on and weight was added to the vehicle without an upgrade in brakes either due to time or cost? either way what sucks is you don't get to many chances to introduce a vehicle...hell you only get one first time intro for a new nameplate....and as consumers gravitate towards the internet for info if much of that is negative it really damages the image. many of you added and I have commented on as well...that edge commercial (I think that is the only one I have seen on tv) of the people driving on top of the buildings is just plain pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one2gamble Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 A thought...an expensive one, but a thought nonetheless. BUT, it could backfire. A free retrofit could be seen as the original vehicles being unsafe in Ford's eyes. It would be looked at as an "invisible recall" without the dirty word. Which may be even worse. Sure, we know the vehicles are not inherently dangerous, but not everybody looks that deep. Especially headline writers. invisible recalls have been used by the Asian companies for years. Whats good for the goose is good for the gander. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizco Posted February 20, 2007 Author Share Posted February 20, 2007 key word here is "sit next to the brake guy"....now wonder why they are in trouble!! We're engineers. We have soft hands, and fragile constitutions. Swizco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted February 20, 2007 Share Posted February 20, 2007 how the hell am I getting lumped in here with TheLemon:)))? Yeah, that's a pretty low blow. We're engineers. We have soft hands, and fragile constitutions. Stay away from that crap they shill in the cafeteria. It will kill people with weak constitutions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizco Posted February 20, 2007 Author Share Posted February 20, 2007 Stay away from that crap they shill in the cafeteria. It will kill people with weak constitutions. I survived a year at Hermosillo. After that experience, there's nothing OAP can throw at me that'll leave a mark. Swizco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I survived a year at Hermosillo. After that experience, there's nothing OAP can throw at me that'll leave a mark. Swizco Sweet Jesus! No matter where you go or where you work, the lunch lady never gets a break. I think you guys are crazy mentioning the Citrus Wonder. He'll be around with yet another silly post. Don't feed the animals remember? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noah Harbinger Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 We're engineers. We have soft hands, and fragile constitutions. I suspect his point was that a phrase like "the brake guy" illustrates a situation where people whose decisions affect one another are isolated from one another, thus causing the scenario he went on to describe. Can't say I would assume anything like that from what you said, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) I never paid much attention to how brakes work, and work properly, until recently, I've been mostly into drag racing where big expensive brakes aren't part of the picture. From everything I've read about brakes I would say Ford is using some really crappy pad material. Rotor size and the number of caliper pistons doesn't always make or break a braking system, most new factory brakes provide plenty of torque to stop the vehicle well at least on the first stop before they fade. Going to huge rotors and multi-piston calipers adds a lot of unsprung and rotating weight which can increase braking distances. If the car has the power to lock the brakes up what good does larger more powerful brakes do? At that point it's the ABS system and the grip of the tires that determines the stopping distance. I can't imagine Ford put 4-wheel discs on the Edge that don't have the power to lock the brakes up at higher speeds. The only thing that makes sense to me, is that Ford, in their quest to reduce the brake dust problems we've heard about on the Expy and other Ford vehicles, chose a low-dust pad material that also has very poor bite. If they can't create enough friction they just aren't going to stop the car like they should. The thing is though, Ford should have caught this during testing and corrected the problem, the fact that they didn't on the vehicle that will maake or break (No pun intended) them (According to Ford) should trouble everyone. You're telling me that they still don't get it? That after 103 years they forgot how brakes work? I hope Mulally has already fired the people responsible for this, there's simply no excuse for a car this important to Ford, and touted for it's safety, no excuse. We just have to hope it's true that Ford is fixing it for 08.. Edited February 21, 2007 by Blueblood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 (edited) The thing is though, Ford should have caught this during testing and corrected the problem, It would be naive to think Ford did not catch this weakness before deciding how to go with what brakes. Its all about cost, and again Ford went the negative or wrong direction. Will Ford NA ever learn? Yes I know, that is a STUPID question. Edited February 21, 2007 by MKII Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 It would be naive to think Ford did not catch this weakness before deciding how to go with what brakes. Its all about cost, and again Ford went the negative or wrong direction. Will Ford NA ever learn? Yes I know, that is a STUPID question. I don't see why a different design or pad material would necessarily cost more, unless they had to make late changes.. Isn't that what the engineers are for so this doesn't happen in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old_fairmont_wagon Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Assuming that the brakes are strong enough to lock up at speed, there are likely three issues at work here: 1) The brakes are undersized or undermaterialed and therefore locking too quickly (i.e., as pressure is applied to stop the rotation of the rotor, the friction goes up faster than expected causing the lockup) With a too quick lockup, the ABS will have to spend more time cycling, making less total use of the braking system. I seriously doubt that any car manufacturer is going to release a car that is completely unable to lock the wheels under braking with a failed ABS system. That's corporate suicide as the litigation costs of a screwup like that would be in the hundreds of billions of dollars and could not be blamed on the tire manufacturer. If the brakes were oversized, they might also grab too quickly, but, that would have been noticed and cost saved down rather quickly. 2) The brakes are appropriately sized, but the tires do not have a sufficient amount of traction to stop the vehicle in a reasonable distance. The tires are loosing traction and locking up too quickly (as they loose traction, their ability to spin the rotor in the engaged caliper is reduced, meaning a premature lockup and ABS cycling). In this case, ABS is likely saving the vehicle from an even longer stopping distance. Wider tires with better traction might mitigate this problem. I wonder if there is a great disparity in stopping distance between the various wheel/tire combos available on the Edge/MkX. 3) The ABS system is improperly tuned or is not adequate to the task. Its spending too much time in cycling the brakes, being overly sensitive to lockups, under sensing lockups, or, some other factor is affecting its ability to operate properly. So, to me, this speaks volumes about the weight of the vehicle and the contact patch of the tires. If the tire contact patch isn't large enough to get the neccessary braking forces in play to adequately stop the vehicle, it means that the vehicle was significantly over its target weight, or that the tires were heavily under speced. I suspect that if someone was enterprising enough to find a way to replace their stock tires on an edge with tires that had a 20 % larger contact area they could reduce their stopping distances by 20 feet easily. Ford ford, from a production standpoint, there's not a whole lot that they're going to be able to do here. If the brakes are barely able to lock up the tires that the vehicle ships with at highway speeds, just increasing the tire width isn't going to help because the brakes won't be able to lock up the wheel then. That's going to require larger brakes as well. Just increasing the brake size if the current ones are sufficient to lock up the wheel may not make much of an improvement. I have no idea what the ABS situation on the vehicle might be, if that's even a factor here at all. Commonly, ABS systems do not shorten dry pavement stopping distances by any large margin. They mainly help in maintaining vehicle directional control in poor traction instances of braking and turning. Perhaps there's an EBD issue, or, an EBA issue. Dunno. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swizco Posted February 21, 2007 Author Share Posted February 21, 2007 I don't see why a different design or pad material would necessarily cost more, unless they had to make late changes.. Isn't that what the engineers are for so this doesn't happen in the first place? Tires, people. Its all (mainly) tires that drive long or short braking distances. The brakes have plenty of power - its just an issue of grip. Secondary ride, fuel economy, cornering, steering feel, road noise, braking distances, top speed... all of these factors are driven in large part by tire tuning. Do-it-all tires are available, but they're fantastically expensive. Therefor, like everything else, it comes down to setting the right balance, with cost a large part of that equation. We got most of that balance right. We'll make adjustments in the future to further improve our product. Swizco Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 Tires, people. Its all (mainly) tires that drive long or short braking distances. The brakes have plenty of power - its just an issue of grip. Secondary ride, fuel economy, cornering, steering feel, road noise, braking distances, top speed... all of these factors are driven in large part by tire tuning. Do-it-all tires are available, but they're fantastically expensive. Therefor, like everything else, it comes down to setting the right balance, with cost a large part of that equation. We got most of that balance right. We'll make adjustments in the future to further improve our product. Swizco Well at least its a somewhat easy fix for people to take care of the 2007 model! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted February 21, 2007 Share Posted February 21, 2007 I heard the 08s would have Michelins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparcEE Posted February 22, 2007 Share Posted February 22, 2007 I survived a year at Hermosillo. After that experience, there's nothing OAP can throw at me that'll leave a mark. Swizco There were days @ HSAP's cafeteria I had no idea what I was eating...most days either left for the city, vending machine, or went hungry... SparcEE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aggie79 Posted March 3, 2007 Share Posted March 3, 2007 I've got one being built for me next week, do I cancel it till they get the brakes fixed or change to Michelins? If they know that they can decrease the stopping distance 15'-20' by changing tires (I would settle for that)why not make the changes with the tire now instead of asking the consumer to spend another $800-$1000 to change to Michelins? That would seem to be good for business. Also I had expected to get around the stickers MPG's, but from what I read on some sites is that most people are not getting close to that, is that true? I would also hope that they would follow Microsoft's example of upgrades, like if there is a different setting to increase the gas mileage or changing the brake pads for better stopping. Ford should be continually looking to upgrade their vehicles and passing the upgrades free to at least the recently purchased vehicles. If you make a mistake (everybody does) tell us, fix it quickly and learn from it. Good quality products sell. We wanted this Edge, love the looks & ride, but all this makes me wonder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.